Sovereignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

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E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Your right EG i think i will start reporting any who claim Daniel 9 hasnt been fulfilled.:p just to be fair
lol.. well see, from you I know you are just joking. so we have have their friendly jabs :p
 
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No your not Mark. Your goal is attention. By causing discord.
Ill let you have the last word as you so love it and just start
reporting you like the woman and the unjust judge.

Like I say, I don't start the conversations, but you seem unable to acknowledge that, np
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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can you believe it?

k....let's go for coffee.
 
A

Abiding

Guest


A little nourishment is in order, and a prayer for guidance im sure.

The main things are the plain things and the plain things are the main things. Alister Begg
 
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Oh I am happy to keep repeating it Rick. You are a good example of someone who comes on the internet and makes your extra biblical demands unto salvation, flushed with believing you have more truth than did the leaders of the early church, and you believe you preach the true Gospel unto salvation on the internet that nearly all of the Trinitarian ministers will not plainly preach from the pulpit
It's a Waltar Mitty world.
Was Walter Mitty murky?
- - - - - - because your theology certainly is.
No trinitarians.........no internet...........no oneness............no nothing except the oneness of your repeating ode.
Much like a poor chorus with no resolve. - (No verse) - Perhaps you could include a CODA to break the monotony. -(Just a thought, Aurelius)
 
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I never once mentioned Jesus words being philosophy. Or the sacrifices.
Yes i can, but no i wont. At least for now ive stopped. Cant see any benefit.
My contention is in the nature of God in redemption. Ive heard your take.
And seen your scriptural position, and i just dont agree with it. And im not
wanting to get into a neverending battle....which im sure is all that will happen.
My activity in the thread was during a period when i wasnt sure what you were
actually teaching, now i know and cant see any point in discussing it. ty tho:)
Then suffice it to say Scripture shows that:

I. God's foreknowledge is determinative.
II. Unregenerate man is a slave to sin, his free will is limited by his disposition.
III. Man is morally responsible for his sin.
IV. Man is morally responsible for Adam's sin.
V. It is just that the unjust should glorify the justice of God.

These are what the OP presents from the Scriptures.
 
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A little nourishment is in order, and a prayer for guidance im sure.

The main things are the plain things and the plain things are the main things. Alister Begg
The main thing is to let the main thing be the main thing. . .????

Ewww, that looks good!
 
A

Abiding

Guest
Then suffice it to say Scripture shows that:

I. God's foreknowledge is determinative. Thats an opinion. Gods omniscient, and Sovereign. But what is His Will? Sure He does all His pleasure, what is His pleasure. And what does the bible say about it. There are differences there.
II. Unregenerate man is a slave to sin, his free will is limited by his disposition. And conscience(with Gods Law), and both natural and Spiritual revelation, prophets, and Gods word. If left alone true, but he isnt left alone.
III. Man is morally responsible for his sin.Yes he is.
IV. Man is morally responsible for Adam's sin.No not responsible, but has the consequence of Adams sin.
V. It is just that the unjust should glorify the justice of God.This is where it gets philosophical. Yes God is just. And whoever refuses the love of the truth will be damned. And this is where dots are connected past scripture. This is where people paint God without scriptural warrant to make answers for themselves.

These are what the OP presents from the Scriptures.

I loved the majority of the OP till you had God on an ego trip. Making connections out of scripture that dont apply to the text and contradict the entire bible about Gods nature. Sorry im not able to do that. Im fine with His wrath and destroying those who hate Him. Your story had a different ending.
 
W

weakness

Guest
We are not the light of Jn 1:5, Jesus is.

Unregenerate man cannot comprehend that light (Jn 1:5), so why would he choose to believe what he cannot comprehend?


Correct, but it does not say how they come to believe what they do not comprehend.



Then we are in agreement with the order of the text:

born again, then see (Jn 3:3)

born again, then enter (Jn 3:5)[/QUOTE You are using the born again scripture incorrectly. You say you that you cant know God unless your born again and you cant be born again unless you know god and comprehend spiritual thing . this is nonsense, and an improper use of these scriptures. ! Cor2:9 But as it is written eye hath not seen......the things which God prepared for them.14 But god hath revealed them unto us by his spirit.....12 now we have received the spirit of God that we may know the things freely given us by God.....Now this does not say anything about salvation. it says the spirit shows us the things promised by god to our unregenerate heart. now ,what now ,now we can choose whether to except these God hath prepared for us or not . get it God gives us grace to see ,then we can choose. What nonsense I have read for the last ten pages . no wonder the world laughs at the stupidity of Christians arguing in such ways, its a disgrace. Take a #!@+*&*** break already.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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Then we are in agreement with the order of the text:

born again, then see (Jn 3:3)

born again, then enter (Jn 3:5)[/QUOTE You are using the born again scripture incorrectly. You say you that you cant know God unless your born again and you cant be born again unless you know god and comprehend spiritual thing . this is nonsense, and an improper use of these scriptures. ! Cor2:9 But as it is written eye hath not seen......the things which God prepared for them.14 But god hath revealed them unto us by his spirit.....12 now we have received the spirit of God that we may know the things freely given us by God.....Now this does not say anything about salvation. it says the spirit shows us the things promised by god to our unregenerate heart. now ,what now ,now we can choose whether to except these God hath prepared for us or not . get it God gives us grace to see ,then we can choose. What nonsense I have read for the last ten pages . no wonder the world laughs at the stupidity of Christians arguing in such ways, its a disgrace. Take a #!@+*&*** break already.
huh?
no, that's speaking of the SAVED.

now we have received the spirit of God that we may know the things freely given us by God

that's for the born again!
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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i just don't think man (even spiritual/regenerate man) has any real explanation for evil, or reprobation unto eternal hellfire.
do they? are these things explained to us?
not that i've seen.
like Fester said...there are some things we just aren't told.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest

I loved the majority of the OP till you had God on an ego trip. Making connections out of scripture that dont apply to the text and contradict the entire bible about Gods nature. Sorry im not able to do that. Im fine with His wrath and destroying those who hate Him. Your story had a different ending.

makes ya wander about even that when you look at things like this.


Ez 33
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Say to them: ‘As I live,’ says the Lord God, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live.
 
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Mark54,
You are saying Jesus is a lesser diety.
You are making a terrible mistake.

Jesus said the Father was greater than he
Jesus proceeded from the Father.
Jesus ascended back to the Father.
Jesus and the Father are one. - (By that they are the same diety)

You don't understand John17 unfortunately, if you had the knowledge you think you do, you would understand then how Father and son are one, it is written quite plainly, for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear
Anyone knows this.
Why is it that you must make such distinction?
Do you not know that God is One?
And that the Son came to earth to save?

Yes, I did know the son came to eaqrth to save
Do you not know that God didn't find anyone to plead His case so He sent His representative (out of Himself)?
Why do you make these distinctions?
Do you not know that is very dangerous? To sublimate Jesus as a lesser?

I repeat, Jesus Himself said the Father was greater than he, and the Father was greater than all
Do you not understand that when you do so, you are separating the only way you have to salvation from the very God(the Father), you say you serve?

The above is a totally immature statement to make, and shows the poverty of your true knowledge. We don't have to theologise Christianity before God will accept us.Nor does a person have to rationalise Christ is equal to the Father to be saved. And yet again, you are in effect saying that a person is seperated from salvation if they stand on the plain words of Christ when he walked this earth, for Christ said the Father was greater than he. Really Rick, this is schooolground error.
Head theology not demanded in the bible won't save anyone. You are ruled by your theological mind, and you run around constantly stating in effect that I will end up in hell for standing on the plain words of Christ when he walked this earth

As for my ministry - that you judge, I minister through music and evangelism.
Street, church, evangelize. My ordination is through the lives God uses me to change.
The signs follow. But don't believe me, - the signs of a prophet follow the prophet, the signs of an evangelist follow the evangelist, the signs of a pastor follow the pastor.

I can only go by what you come out with on here. Biblically speaking, signs. wonders, and miracles followed/endorsed the true message being preached. You most certainly do not preach the truue message on this website. I repeat, your message has shoolground errors all over it. I am left sorrowful that many who believe they have a ministry, have such basic errors of ther faith
And so on.
We will see(and judge) each others works in the end.
I won't be your judge, and you won't be mine.
 
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But I showed you over thirty scriptures refuting it.
.
As for these 30 scriptures that you kept insisting you gave me to show Christ was the one true God, I didn't even bother to reply yesterday, for you were simply trying to evade the point being discussed, but I am afraid it is yet more flawed understanding on your part, I don't need to try and reason scripture to contradict the plain word to fit into my errors, I have the plain scripture, which shows the proof you think you gave me to show Christ is the one true God is error:

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent(John17:3)

What does Paul say?

yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live(1Cor8:6)

And

Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. [SUP]25 [/SUP]For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. [SUP]26 [/SUP]The last enemy to be destroyed is death. [SUP]27 [/SUP]For he ‘has put everything under his feet’.[SUP][c][/SUP] Now when it says that ‘everything’ has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. [SUP]28 [/SUP]When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.(1Cor15:24-28)

What a surprise, Pauil agrees with Christ, and you can't get it any plainer than the above.

No man hath seen God at ANYTIME
1John4:12

No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.(John6:46)

Are John and Christ speaking of ther same person? Definately

And so, Christ, Paul and John all agree, the Father is the one God(true God) So basically you putting up 30 scriptures to try and prove to me Christ is the one true God was an utter waste of time.
Now I know you're gonna just ignore these scriptures, you don't have much of a choice do you. But I gave you the plain and direct scripture on this subject, not faulty exegesis that seeks to overturn it.

But hey, as you know more truth than Peter, James, John and Paul I guess that gives you licence to ignore what they wrote doesn't it. Well you and I will never share the same view on that

But actually nearly all the ministers in the churches prove you know so little of what really matters, for as they will not preach your demands, eirther they are wrong or you are. Hmmmmmm. But as you run around telling people in effect they stand condemend/cannot be saved if they stand on the plain words of Christ when he walked this earth, you have nothing serious to offer. Now be a good boy and run along will you and stop bringing you immature diatribe to threads

Actually I am putting you straight back on ignore, such childish and immature reasoning hardly brings forth stimulating conversation
 
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For those with eyes to see and ears to hear, andfor the fact I would not want anyone to misunderstand my position(due to onlypreviously discussing what isand what is not salvific belief unto eternal life

God said to Moses:
See, Iam sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you tothe place I have prepared. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Pay attentionto him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will notforgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him. [SUP]22 [/SUP]If you listencarefully to what he says and do all that I say,(important to note) I willbe an enemy to your enemies and will oppose those who oppose you. [SUP]23 [/SUP]My angel will go ahead of you and bring you into theland of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites and Jebusites,and I will wipe them out. Ex23:20-23)

Nextchapter
Mosesand Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up [SUP]10 [/SUP]and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet wassomething like a pavement made of lapis lazuli, as bright blue as the sky. [SUP]11 [/SUP]But God did not raise his hand against these leadersof the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate and drank(9-11)

The 74leaders cannot have seen the Father/the one true God, for he has never beenseen(1John4:12&John6:46) They saw Christ. We know Christ accompanied themin the dessert(1Cor10:4) He was the God they knew if you like on the ground, whilethe one true God remained in Heaven, and the Father told Moses, HIS NAME was inthe angel who would accompany them./ A sign of what was to come. If you listen to what he says, and do allthat I say, etc.
HenceDavid, speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit said:

TheLord said to MY LORD sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstoolfor your feet(Psalm110:1)
AndElizabeth’s words
Why amI so favoured that the mother of MY LORD should come to visit me
Luk1:43
Andhence Thomas, who was an Israelite words
‘MyLord and my God John20:28
Christdid not correct Thomas for saying that, but only three chapters earlier hademphasised the truth, only the Father was the one TRUE God.
Themystery of Father Son and Spirit can be great, as one Trinitaran minister saidto me on another website. ‘Anyone who professes to fully understand the workingout of Father, Son and Holy Spirit(Trinity) shows how little they know of thesubject’
The fullnessof the Godhead bodily dwells in Christ, he is a true reflection of who theFather is, He is the express image of his being. There is no way to the Fatherbut by the Son, and the Son reigns now in Heaven and on earth for the Fatherhas put everything under his feet. Christ is completely Holy, he is above theangels, only the Father is greater than He, no one else comes close, or can do.But you cannot rationalise the spiritual according to the academic mind ofman/what seems logical to him, the conclusions he then draws
When you ask many Trinitarians WHY Christcould speak the word of God on this earth, they normally reply
BecauseChrist is God, they don’t normally give the response John did:
Theone whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for the Spirit is on him without limit John3:34
It seemsto me that for many Equal Trinitarians on these websites, it is not such anequal Trinity at all.
As Ihave repeatedly stated, the difference here is not as to the nature of Christbut his title and whether the Father is greater than he, that’s it. Well ifanyone on this website does not understand the name that we must believe Christto be unto salvation, you need to go to your ministers and ask to join a basicbible study course

Ifanyone acknowledges that Jesus is theSon of God, God lives in them and they in God 1John4:15

Iwrite these things to you who believe inthe name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life1John 5:13
Onceagain, it ain’t a theological exercise of the little grey cells, where you allcome out with some formula and demand it is followed. The Holy Spirit convictsof who a person must believe Christ to be unto salvation, he puts that in yourheart at conversion. And people, he won’t contradict the words of Christ whenhe walked this earth as to the requirement of belief needed unto salvation. Whydo I believe in the virgin birth? Because it makes sense to me? It doesn’t, butI know its true, because the Holy Spirit lives in me, and I could go to a wholelist of things and stress the same but I won’t.
Nowwhere I vehemently disagree with Rick(on what has not been discussed and itgoes to the heart of all of this) I do not believe those bishops/priests at thecouncil of Nicea knew more truth than did the leaders of the early church, IEPeter, James, John and Paul, to me that is a non starter. Carry that thinkingthrough, and you who have read much of theologians and scholars must believeyou know more spiritual truth than did Paul, Peter, James and John, well I willnever claim that, even if some of you want to. And so, the extra biblicaldemands for salvation became official church policy. Well I may be a dinasour,but I am so grateful I am, scripture will always be my bottom line, and the plaincommands/words of it, not the wisdom ofman that has somewhat overturned its basic requirements. You are right Rick,one day we will know, for now we see only in part, then we will know fully evenas we are fully known. But if only you could ask yourself WHY the scripturalrequirement is only to believe in the name Son of God where Christ isconcerned, and not God Himself, but I know you can’t It’s a shame really, yourfirst comment when you joined this debate was spot on, if only you had of leftit there.
Yousee, I am in the majority of required belief unto salvation in Christendom, butaccept I may not be on the internet, for though the minister do I am surebelieve Christ is God Himself in Trinitarian churches, in line with what isactually stated in the Bible nearly all of them DO NOT preach that as necessarysalvific belief unto salvation, that is the difference between them and a fewof you on these websites. And for people who are not blind fanatics, you needto ask yourselves, who is right, a few on here who make extra biblical demandsunto salvation, or nearly all the ministers in the Trinitarian churches? For bothsets of people cannot be right

Elin,if I post one more comment on this thread, please rebuke me, I want you to, I havesaid all I have to say, and all the people who want to argue this with me are now on ignore
thanks
 
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Then suffice it to say Scripture shows that:

I. God's foreknowledge is determinative.
Thats an opinion.
Ac 4:28 is not an opinion.

II. Unregenerate man is a slave to sin, his free will is limited by his disposition.
And conscience(with Gods Law), and both natural and Spiritual revelation, prophets, and Gods word. If left alone true, but he isnt left alone.
In this life, man is not capable of making all moral choices.
He cannot choose to live a perfectly sinless life.
But Adam could have.


III. Man is morally responsible for his sin.Yes he is.

IV. Man is morally responsible for Adam's sin.
No not responsible, but has the consequence of Adams sin.
Man's responsibility is precisely what Paul labors to show in Ro 5:12-21.

Death is the penalty for sin.
Sin was not taken into account between Adam and Moses.
Yet men died, because they were involved in the sin of someone else, namely, Adam.
Involvement in sin is guilt of sin.

God punishes only the guilty.
Men were guilty of the sin of Adam.

V. It is just that the unjust should glorify the justice of God.
This is where it gets philosophical. Yes God is just.
That God works within the dispositions of men causing them to voluntarily choose to do as he wills is not philosophical.
It is attested to throughout Scripture.
Review the many Scriptures given which show it.

These are what the OP presents from the Scriptures.
I loved the majority of the OP till you had. . .connections out of scripture that dont apply to the text[/quote]
Oh, but upon examination they most certainly do apply to the text.

That God judicially blinds, deafens (Lk 8:10) and hardens (Ro 11:25) is the testimony of Scripture.

That God holds men guilty of their judicial blindness, deafness and hardness is likewise the testimony of Scripture.

For it is just that the unjust should glorify the justice of God.

Sorry you don't like that. . .but pleased that you loved the majority of the OP.




 
C

cfultz3

Guest


That God judicially blinds, deafens (Lk 8:10) and hardens (Ro 11:25) is the testimony of Scripture.

That God holds men guilty of their judicial blindness, deafness and hardness is likewise the testimony of Scripture.

For it is just that the unjust should glorify the justice of God.


God blinds people and then holds them guilty for having blinded them? This is just?

What if I held my child back from going to school, not even homeschooling? Is he held responsible for being uneducated?
 
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We are not the light of Jn 1:5, Jesus is.

Unregenerate man cannot comprehend that light (Jn 1:5), so why would he choose to believe what he cannot comprehend?
Correct, but it does not say how they come to believe what they do not comprehend.
Then we are in agreement with the order of the text:

born again, then see (Jn 3:3)

born again, then enter (Jn 3:5)
You are using the born again scripture incorrectly. You say you that you cant know God unless your born again and you cant be born again unless you know god and comprehend spiritual thing . this is nonsense, and an improper use of these scriptures.
The order of Jn 3:3 and 3:5 are clear.