The Fourth Commandment didn't make the day holy, it make it a burden.

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Jun 26, 2014
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#21
actually the greatest gift ever is the salvation won for us by christ...remember him?
And the greatest proof that one has received salvation is a desire to follow Christ.

1 John 2:6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

John 10:26-28 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#22
Are you saying you are perfect now? You may have no sin imputed to you, but you are not perfect.

As for obeying God, this can never be a sin, for sin is breaking the law, His Will.

Now for all to learn from the Master how, why and what is to be obeyed. Start by the laws that include love and mercy. If you are saying those laws are no longer in effect, you are teaching against the Gospel of Yeshua, Jesus. Please follow His Example.

Jesus, Yeshua, endured the cross for you and for me to deliver the Good News to all who will receive it.

Tent, you are right, we are not to condemn those who keep Sabbath. The problem is where is your faith. There is absolutely nothing wrong with meeting with fellow believers to worship God in fact it is encouraged. But if your faith is in keeping a day then that means your faith is not in the work of the Cross and therefore not accepted by God.

That opens the door for sin. and the wages of sin is death.
 
Jun 26, 2014
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#23
so in other words all you have to do is proudly proclaim yourself a 'sabbath keeper'...wear the sabbath on your sleeve...and bash other people over the head with the sabbath...and God will be pleased with your 'obedience'

i have picked up on this sort of irony with some sabbath keepers before...if this is really the only 'standard' you hold yourself to regarding the sabbath...then -i am a better sabbath keeper than you are- even though i don't intentionally strive to keep the sabbath...

but in spite of that...the sabbath keepers here will continue with the condemnation simply because i don't go around proudly proclaiming myself a 'sabbath keeper'...and because i don't insist on everyone keeping the sabbath...and because i don't go around condemning everyone who doesn't keep the sabbath or who worships on sunday...
Why are you a hater? If If was sleeping with my neighbor's wife and you led me to Christ and I came alive to God and turned away from sleeping with my neighbor's wife you would be rejoicing but if I, with the same Spirit, begin honoring the seventh day you become a hater. Hmmmm! Very interesting.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#24
The subject of the Seventh Day as being the Sabbath of the Lord has been brought up many times for discussion, not as an emblem of inferiority or superiority, however when those who observe the Seventh Day as the Sabbath of the Lord when He rested from His own work of creation attempt to share reason on the subject, the slings and arrows begin.

I observe the Seventh Day as the Seventh Day of creation declared by my heavenly Father as a gift to me and all who will receive it to spend a day of rest from my mundane labors to honor Him. Why? He gave it to me as a gift. It is yours also, and it belongs to all who yearn to please the Father and not the edicts of men.

Anyone who wishes to think the Seventh Day, the Sabbath of the Lord, His gift to all who will receive it, is another day may have his reason for following this path, but no one will ever convince those who observe the Seventh Day as the Sabbath of the Lord that it is wrong or holier than thou. Holier than thou is editing the Word of Yahweh as it is read to one's whims. Even in the letters of Paul, one is allowed to hold whatever day he believes to be correct as above others, as long as it is practiced with a clear conscience in the sight of God. If this latter be so, than anyone complaining about me or anyone else who oberves the Seventh Day is being holier than thou. Practice whatever comes into your mind, but do not blame others for listening to Yahweh.
 
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BradC

Guest
#25
JaumeJ or those who keep the law,

What are the things that you are keeping and doing by faith according to the law? If you answer don't include the 10 commandments because we know that you keep those. Tell us what you keep concerning the whole law including the law of Christ of the NT? Do you pray without ceasing and rejoice evermore? Are you patient with all men, do you not render evil for evil and do you follow that which is good among yourselves and with all men (1 Thes 5:15-17)? Do you do all things without murmuring, complaining and disputings (Phil 2:14)? Are you thankful in and for all things (1 Thes 5:18)? Do you lay your life down and take the blame for another's guilt like our Lord did when He suffered on the cross and as our example that we should follow in His steps (1 John 3:16, 1 Pt 2:21)? Do you bestow more abundant honor on those who are less honorable (1 Cor 12:23)? Do you always refrain from lusting after the opposite sex (Mt 5:28) or anything outside the will of God prescribed in the scripture of the NT and if your eye offends you do you pluck it out (Mk 9:47)?


Do you confess your faults to others even it that would mean you confess to breaking the law (James 5:16)? Do you esteem others greater than yourself (Phil 2:3)? These are a few things that we have according to the law of the NT commandments. Do you comply with these at all times as you do with the 10 commandments, and if you fail do you do what the law prescribes according to the NT? For you the law is the OT and the NT, so remember what (James 2:10 &11) says...that those who keep the law and offend any point of the law is a transgressor of the law. If you become a transgressor of the whole law when you offend in one point, what do you do about it? If you want to keep the law and you believe that others should keep it as well, then do you judge yourself and others according to the law? If you keep the law and do it, you call that faith, but if you do not keep and do it or fail at any point, do you call that being a transgressor or is your conscience seared through hardness?

These are honest questions that any NT believer who keeps the law should be able to answer according to their understanding or their would be no reason to keep the law.
 
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The_Seeker

Guest
#26
The title of this thread shows the lack of understanding that comes with those who do not understand what the fourth commandment actually means.

1. The Laws of Moses are the laws of the land of Israel.
2. The Sabbath Day was created not to be a burden, but a day of rest. God rested, so we rest. Simple concept, right?

Yet, so many attach amendments to that law, and causes it to bcome a burden. That was not God's intention, but man always seem to muddy the doctrinal waters constantly, so it is no surprise that man has messed up the Sabbath as well.

What I hate about these threads is that, when the topic of te Laws of Moses comes up, people will use this as an opportuniy to show their ignorance towards the Law by spouting some things from the Gospel that have no bearing on the Law to make the Gospel supercede the Law, not realizing what they are saying in the process. The Gospel is the official offering of salvation, while the Laws of Moses gives us the conduct rules that God expects people to have in His Holy Land, the land of Israel.

They do not contradict or supercede each other. They are intended for certain purposes, and they are fulfilling those purposes. I people would only take the time to read and understand both the Old And New Testament, we can see how these two "covenants" compliment each other. One offers the rules and regulations for the people and land of Israel, with the benefit of doing such things being recorded for everyone to see in Deuteronomy 28. Salvation is not on the list of benefits. Another covenant was needed, one that included both the Gentiles and salvation. Entre Jesus Christ.

In Israel, Christians and Jews are supposed to follow the Laws of Moses. However, with racism infecting the Jewish synagogues and perverting their religion, we see that they made themselves too blind to see the simple truths concerning God's official plan for salvation. Because of their error, they have missed the Lord's first advent, and have been debased to the point that their "salvation" is now linked to everyone else's chances. Without their Messiah, there is no salvation. So, unlike the Laws of Moses, which explains the do's and don'ts, the Gospel gives mankind an alternative to the afterlife that all mankind, Jews included, deserves. The religion of Israel is incomplete without the Gospel, and the Gospel is not worth reading without the Old Testament. Now, the Christian church is in danger of suffering the same fate, missing out on what God is actually doing with Israel right now, because of their man-made blindness.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#27
Do people understand at all, no man keeps the law? Have I ever posted that I keep the law? I follow the law as best I can with the knowledge given me by Yeshua, Jesus, as to how it is to be followed.

I believe you have been informed of this on other occasions. Grace is no excuse to ignore the will of our heavenly Father.

If you wish to condone being lawless this is your way. Remember, as it is written in Ephesians, faith in Yeshua, Jesus, establishes the law.

We who are privileged to understand this live in grace, forgiven for our shortcomings, and our hearts' desire is to pleas our Maker. It does not please our Maker to call Yeshua, Jesus, a liar when He teaches us the law is not abolished, it is fulfilled, established. The law, being estblished is now on the foundation of the Gospel and grace, making itself something natural to our new person in Yeshua, but the law is not abolished.

If you wish to teach the law is abolished, again, this is your way, but it is not the Way taught by Yeshua. Beware of changing the Word of Yahweh, God, for He is our Salvation, the Word.
 
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chubbena

Guest
#28
Tell us pleasant things, give us convenience, let us do whatever we want, do not burden us with the law of God, and stop confronting us with the Holy One of Israel. Let us simply love Jesus with no string attached.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#29
If I did not already know better, I would say you have gone mainstream............Praise Yahweh, I know better.

Tell us pleasant things, give us convenience, let us do whatever we want, do not burden us with the law of God, and stop confronting us with the Holy One of Israel. Let us simply love Jesus with no string attached.
 
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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#30
The Lord did NOT tell you to look down your nose at anyone who keeps the Sabbath!! You choose not to keep it, so that is your business, but God is not condemning me because I keep it!! The Lord even allows me to repeat scripture telling me that when scripture tells us about God's plan for us in relation to Sabbath, he uses the last day of the week. I can even say I choose that because I want to follow the Lord's direction as close as I can because I love Him.

If you want to declare to the Lord you prefer another day, fine, it is you and the Lord's business. I doubt God is so legalistic that he says you must choose only a certain day of the week. If you think you are following God by choosing another day, scripture says to follow your heart. But don't say the old "you fool" to me because my heart says to follow scripture close as I can.
i am not looking down on anyone who keeps the sabbath...not just for keeping the sabbath anyway...

instead it is the -sabbath keepers- on this forum who time and time again slander and disparage those who don't do as they do...if you doubt this then just look at some of the threads on the first ten pages of the bible study forum...

a thread accusing people of 'hating the seventh day'... http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/94528-why-such-hatred-seventh-day.html
a thread claiming that worship on sunday is a satanic deception... http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...lords-day-one-satans-greatest-deceptions.html
a thread claiming that worship on sunday is the work of the antichrist... http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/94926-antichrist-has-changed-gods-law-times.html
a thread claiming that worship on sunday was invented by the papacy... http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/94425-sabbath-kept-until-what-year.html
a thread claiming that non sabbath keepers are following the 'strong delusion of babylon'... http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/94703-strond-delusion-babylon.html
a thread claiming that worshipping on sunday is 'leaven' from the antichrist and that those who worship on sunday are in 'babylon'... http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...13-more-closely-we-must-come-out-babylon.html
a thread claiming that worshipping on sunday is the 'image of the beast' and an idol... http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...lts-making-idol-sunday-ignoring-word-god.html
a thread claiming that worshipping on sunday is an apostate practice from 'babylon'... http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/94502-revealing-antichrist.html

equally bad is how many sabbath keepers simply -look the other way- while their comrades inundate the forum with a flood of hate...and then play innocent and pretend not to understand why the sabbath keepers and non sabbath keepers never seem to get along...

what is worst of all is what i was objecting to in the post you replied to...when the sabbatarians are -hypocritical- in their condemnation of non sabbath keepers...when -they themselves- subscribe to a version of 'sabbath keeping' that waters down the sabbath laws of the old testament so much that all they really have to do is declare themselves to be 'sabbath keepers'...and yet they still go around condemning those who haven't identified themselves as 'sabbath keepers'...

like i pointed out...it is not without irony that in some cases i unintentionally -do a better job of keeping the sabbath- than the proud so called 'sabbath keepers' who condemn christians like me...

like jesus said...they should be fixing the plank in their own eye before they go around condemning perceived specks in others' eyes...
 
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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#31
Why are you a hater? If If was sleeping with my neighbor's wife and you led me to Christ and I came alive to God and turned away from sleeping with my neighbor's wife you would be rejoicing but if I, with the same Spirit, begin honoring the seventh day you become a hater. Hmmmm! Very interesting.
i have a problem with hypocrisy...

you just plain -made up- your own standard for sabbath keeping that has nothing to do with what the bible says about the subject...neither old testament law nor new testament grace...

and -now- you think it's ok to go around attacking non sabbath keepers when -you yourself- are failing to keep the sabbath according to the biblical standards you have disregarded...

if you simply did what your heart compels you to do on the sabbath and went about your business regarding the sabbath -without constantly condemning those who don't do as you do-...then we could get along...
 
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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#32
The subject of the Seventh Day as being the Sabbath of the Lord has been brought up many times for discussion, not as an emblem of inferiority or superiority, however when those who observe the Seventh Day as the Sabbath of the Lord when He rested from His own work of creation attempt to share reason on the subject, the slings and arrows begin.
actually the sabbath usually -is- brought up as an emblem of superiority...just look at the vast majority of threads started by sabbath keepers on the subject of sabbath keeping...

the sabbath keepers are almost always the ones who begin with the 'slings and arrows'...people like you just look the other way and pretend to be innocent while your comrades are busy spreading their hate...
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#33
Rachel, you are answering to this thread. As for the others, when I find them a bit off-sounding, I do not read them. I do not put all Sunday folks in a bag, and I hope others do not put all those who observe the Seventh Day as their Sabbath in one either. Sure some will condemn the others, both ways, this only weeds out those who do not believe from the heart and soul.. We all must attain to weeding out those who condemn others. I really do believe people love Yeshua, who use the name Jesus, have a Sunday Sabbath, etc. are my family in Yeshua, but when one comes accusing, I tend to take exception, as should you if you are accused for following what you believe. Yeshua crucified is all we truly need follow and pass on to others. Many times I will use the name Jesus, but if we both wish to be truly accurate on that point we would translate His name, for it does translate as Savior.

Yahweh bless you always in Yeshua's name, amen. Now, you know about Whom I speak, He is always the same.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#34
why aren't there any threads about the other sign of the old covenant?

This is My covenant, which you are to keep,
between Me and you and your offspring after you:
Every one of your males must be circumcised.

(Genesis 17:10)

is it because:

No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly;
and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code.
Such a person's praise is not from other people, but from God.

(Romans 2:29)

?

if this is "obvious," i don't understand why we are confident to condemn each other over observing the sabbath.
 
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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#35
Rachel, you are answering to this thread. As for the others, when I find them a bit off-sounding, I do not read them. I do not put all Sunday folks in a bag, and I hope others do not put all those who observe the Seventh Day as their Sabbath in one either. Sure some will condemn the others, both ways, this only weeds out those who do not believe from the heart and soul.. We all must attain to weeding out those who condemn others. I really do believe people love Yeshua, who use the name Jesus, have a Sunday Sabbath, etc. are my family in Yeshua, but when one comes accusing, I tend to take exception, as should you if you are accused for following what you believe. Yeshua crucified is all we truly need follow and pass on to others. Many times I will use the name Jesus, but if we both wish to be truly accurate on that point we would translate His name, for it does translate as Savior.

Yahweh bless you always in Yeshua's name, amen. Now, you know about Whom I speak, He is always the same.
well for some reason whenever any non sabbath keeper takes exception to condemnation from a sabbath keeper...we get accused of attacking them or even 'persecuting' them...

in roughly the past week there have been three times as many threads posted accusing non sabbath keepers as threads accusing sabbath keepers...so it is clear who is initiating most of the condemnation...and who is just taking exception to the condemnation...

honestly it doesn't help one bit when you more or less ignore what your fellow sabbath keepers are doing...and then post things like 'we aren't condemning anyone but we are always getting condemned'...it just makes it look like you are either in denial or you just don't care about the abuse your fellow sabbath keepers are heaping on other christians...

any sabbath keepers who don't agree with condemning and accusing non sabbath keepers need to be much more vocal about rebuking those sabbath keepers who are constantly accusing and condemning...
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#36
Frankly we all are obliged to ignore the majority of posts regarding understanding of law and grace in order to avoide heated and unecessary conflicts. If you do not believe me, check your own record as to what percentage of posts you deem to participate in. As for my looking the other way, I probably do regarding some who defend the Seventh Day because I do not wish to have conflict, but when someone puts me into a bag with all others just on one of the myriad of points making up my faith, I respond. I suppose you do too.
Again, if I say I am convinced by what I believe I have learned from Holy Scripture, and, yes, from the Holy Spirit, that the Seventh Day is still the day Yahweh chose as His Sabbath, this should not cause others to have some desire to throw me into the fire, but many give me the impression this is their desire, while I continually and patiently explain why I believe the way I do without condemning those who do not believe or understand the way I do.
I will never be weary of sharing what I have been given to believe in Yeshua. He is my Example and Teacher, none other, for there is no other teacher who can teach all of the Truth. PS, I have always made it clear to both sides Paul's teaching that a person may revere any day in the sight of the Lord as long as his conscience is clear. This is a rebuke to both sides of the discussion.
 
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Jun 26, 2014
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#37
i have a problem with hypocrisy...

you just plain -made up- your own standard for sabbath keeping that has nothing to do with what the bible says about the subject...neither old testament law nor new testament grace...

and -now- you think it's ok to go around attacking non sabbath keepers when -you yourself- are failing to keep the sabbath according to the biblical standards you have disregarded...

if you simply did what your heart compels you to do on the sabbath and went about your business regarding the sabbath -without constantly condemning those who don't do as you do-...then we could get along...
I honor the Sabbath according to the teachings of Jesus, not according to the Law on stone. The teachings of Jesus did not do away with the seventh day Sabbath nor did He change the day to another day. If I'm a hypocrite for following Jesus then praise God. To me a bigger hypocrite is one who says they follow Jesus but don't walk as Jesus walked. Do you know that if Jesus didn't honor the Sabbath He would be a sinner and unacceptable as the sacrifice? We must walk as Jesus taught us.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#38
Earlier I posted the quote from Exodus, below, as a demonstration of what both sides of this debate should read and understand. There is nothing in it mentioning death for not following this law, commandment, statute, in this quote within the Commandments. It is basically telling us to keep the Seventh Day separate. I realize elsewhere it is written if a Jew does not observe the Seventh Day he may be stoned. This is pure "law without mercy." Jeremiah tells us God gave us statutes that ought not be followoed, bad ones. Yeshua has shown us by Example that though He followed the Law of Moses perfectly, when mercy is an option, mercy replaces any punishement. Ultimately, His greatest gift to all, His life giving Blood, teaches us mercy should always be practiced, no matter what.

Neight side of this argument should condemn the other, for this is not what Yeshua teaches. Blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy. This is the biggest teaching about the law ever, but no one seems to honor it in practice. Blessed indeed are the merciful, amen.



Exo 20:10


But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11
For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#39
Jeremiah tells us God gave us statutes that ought not be followoed, bad ones.
are you sure that's what the prophet said?

he said the teachers of the law did not know God.
the book of the law had been lost until a few years into Josiah's reign.
the prophet said that the scribes and priests had 'handled the law falsely' -- this he said to a people who did not have the book of the law, and who had altars to Ba'al and Asherah on every high hill in the land, but thought that because the temple stood in Jerusalem, God would not judge them.

i do not remember reading any prophet of God saying that the Lord Himself had given "bad commandments"


 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
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#40
all you really have to do is say the magic words,,,"i believe in the sabbath",,,past that if you work shift work at a plant making 27.50 an hour no worry when they make you go to work next Saturday say OK but in my head I am at rest obeying God,,,,,