the lie that Jesus ministry was law

[followjesus]

Well I guess I have been put in my place. Too bad you donot understand what others are saying, and it is even worse the tone you assume they are employing.



God bless you. No one can have a good day without His blessing. Enjoy the rain. Enjoy the sunshine.

deuteronomy 31:26 ""Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God. There it will remain as a witness against you."

the Law of moses is against us, it is to condemn us, to reveal to us that we are sinners and need a savior. look what paul says considering what moses said above

colossians 2:14-15 "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it."

you know how people always say " divide the word"? Jesus did that for us, and His ministry gives everything that is valid from the Law, but it is not the mosaic Law he taught at all if we obey the gospel, we will not transgess the law. But the Law governs the first covenant, Jesus governs the new, Jesus validated the 10 commandments so therefore they absolutely apply to us, but much more of the Law Jesus did not teach, the thing is this with the Law

james 2:10 "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."

we arent authorized to take the mosaic Law, and decide which parts apply and which dont, thae one who is authorized By God, is Jesus. He did that for us, we dont have to go to the mosaic Law and go through it and decide, Jesus already told us what to obey...Him, not moses, but Jesus. i would say to study hebrews there is a vast wealth of Knowledge about the differences in the 2 covenants. it explains how the first covenant including the Law, is a foreshadow of the truth that Came with Jesus. please understand im not a "grace alone no obedience person in ANY way" im saying id=f we obey Moses Law, we will not be obeyong Jesus because Jesus taught things that are different than what moses taught, we obey with all our Heart Jesus Christ. remember when the isrealites begged moses to not let God speak to them anymore, and they didnt want to see His presence anymore because they said " we will die"? moses then gave a promise for Jesus who would explain everything and that He is the one we are to obey

deuteronomy 18:15-19 "The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him. 16For this is what you asked of the Lordyour God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, “Let us not hear the voice of the Lord our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die.”17The Lord said to me: “What they say is good. 18I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him. 19I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name."

Now look at the things Jesus said about His teaching and His words

john 12:49 "For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken."

john 7:16 ""My teaching is not My own," Jesus replied. "It comes from Him who sent Me."

john 8:26 ""I have much to say about you and much to judge. But the One who sent Me is truthful, and what I have heard from Him, I tell the world."

john 8:28 "So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing on My own, but speak exactly what the Father has taught Me."

john 14:24 "Whoever does not love Me does not keep My words. The word that you hear is not My own, but it is from the Father who sent Me."

peter john 6:68 "Simon Peter replied, "Lord, to whom would we go? You have the words of eternal life."

if you dount Jesus is the prophet promised in deuteronomy check out acts 3:22, 7:37. Jesus ois the Christ part of His role was to speak the very words of God to the world, that the isrealites were afraid to hear any more of way back then. the law of moses is like looking through a dark viel, but Jesus ministry removes that veil and we see God and His word as it truly is, knowing His Love for us, rather than being afraid to hear His word, it comes to us from one who gave His life in exchange for ours

2 corinthains 3:14-17 "But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom."

and the spirit?

John 6:63 " .....the words i have spoken to you are spirit and Life"

its Jesus ministry that we follow, not moses, and definately not anyone saying to disregard Jesus ministry. we obey Jesus

john 15:9-11 "As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete."

 

[followjesus]

You use spiritual verses but then you make provisions for the flesh.



The flesh has not been glorified yet,so If you mean Its not ok to break the law,I wish you would say,because I am now a member of the body of CHRIST,I establish the law.

ughh... are you authorized By God to adjust any 1 law? or is Jesus the One who holds the authority to do so>????? Jesus ministry already divided everything for you folks, the simplicity is to Learn the ministry of Jesus, and obey it, if you do that....wow you will be following the spirit. if you are not following it, wow, you are not following the spirit. its very simple. the law is not to be divided in any way it contains over 400 regulations and rules, commands and ordinances but

james 2:10 "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."

the Law of moses is 1, and we arent to divide the mosaic Law in any way, Jesus did that, He was ordained long ago to do that. the Law of moses is a viel to those who follow it

2 corinthains 3:14-17 "But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom."


and now, where is the spirit found according to the gospel?

John 6:63...the words I have spoken to you are full of the spirit and Life."

before you discount this verse, find another that says the spirit is in these words or any other place the spirit comes to us from, the only place is the words of Jesus, but thats just according to Jesus. if you want to " establish the law of moses youi should grasp that means every detail of it, and you also should realize its against man, a witness against us

deuteronomy 31:26 ""Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God. There it will remain as a witness AGAINST you."

the Law of moses is the Law that governs judaism, lol do this, study judaism and thier Law and you will find..wow its the first 5 books of moses. and where is the mosaic Law found????? the first 5 books of moses. Judaisms Law came through Moses, anyone who has been baptized into Christ, is dead to the Law, and the Law ends at death. your confusing Jesus ministry which is " the Law of the spirit of life" with the mosaic Law, which IS NOT the law of sin and death, the lAW OF MOSES IS GOOD RIGHTEOUS and hooly. the law of sin and death, was the law of sin living in us. theres nothing wrong with the mosaic Law, its purpose was only to get the world through until Christ came with the reality of things. there is no provision for the flesh lol in Jesus mnistry, thats who we obey, He gave the commands of God, moses commands were given to darkened hearts. a viel covered them and still does when someone adheres to it. why do you think paul was so adament that christians were not to adhere to it? constantly he argued agauinst judiazers, who are those who came after paul and tried to force christians to obey the Law of moses. why did paul teach us that we died to the mosaic law? and that the mosaic lAW ONLY APPLIES UNTIL A PERSONS DEATH? why did paul say clearly " you have been released from the Law, so that you can serve God?

Why does paul say that the law actually caused more sinful passions to be aroused in us? because we were sinners, given a holy Law. give a rebel a law, and by nature they will want to break that Law, thats what a sinner is, a rebel. that kind of Law is like a prison, full of criminals that arent allowed outside, they want to go break the law, but they are restricted from doing so. Jesus ministry is not like that, it gives rebirth. a new heart, new attitudes, a new Person emerges through the gospel ministry. we obey with all our Heart, but we obey the fullness of Gods word, which is Jesus and all His commands are Gods commands meant for the church. He is the prophet promised in deuteronomy 18 when the people begged to no longer Hear gods word, Jesus would come with Gods words and speak them to the world. there is no provision for flesh in Jesus ministry thats absurd. im saying we obey Him, not moses. to obey moses means we have to transgress what Jesus taught. they are different One is looking through a darkened viel, the other is to see clearly.

 

[JaumeJ]

There is so much written about the law in the New Testement, and so much more not understood about those writings.

All will understand the law perfectly under grace if they learn from the teaching of Jesus Christ on the subject. Paul learned from Jesus Christ. All are invited by Jesus Christ to come to Him to learn, yet the vasst majority prefer the complications that came after His teachings by letters to assembies with specific problems needing to be addressed because they were straginin from the teaching of the Gospel by our Lord, god and Savior. Learnf rom God, we are invited to do so.

deuteronomy 31:26 ""Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God. There it will remain as a witness against you."

the Law of moses is against us, it is to condemn us, to reveal to us that we are sinners and need a savior. look what paul says considering what moses said above

colossians 2:14-15 "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it."

you know how people always say " divide the word"? Jesus did that for us, and His ministry gives everything that is valid from the Law, but it is not the mosaic Law he taught at all if we obey the gospel, we will not transgess the law. But the Law governs the first covenant, Jesus governs the new, Jesus validated the 10 commandments so therefore they absolutely apply to us, but much more of the Law Jesus did not teach, the thing is this with the Law

james 2:10 "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."

we arent authorized to take the mosaic Law, and decide which parts apply and which dont, thae one who is authorized By God, is Jesus. He did that for us, we dont have to go to the mosaic Law and go through it and decide, Jesus already told us what to obey...Him, not moses, but Jesus. i would say to study hebrews there is a vast wealth of Knowledge about the differences in the 2 covenants. it explains how the first covenant including the Law, is a foreshadow of the truth that Came with Jesus. please understand im not a "grace alone no obedience person in ANY way" im saying id=f we obey Moses Law, we will not be obeyong Jesus because Jesus taught things that are different than what moses taught, we obey with all our Heart Jesus Christ. remember when the isrealites begged moses to not let God speak to them anymore, and they didnt want to see His presence anymore because they said " we will die"? moses then gave a promise for Jesus who would explain everything and that He is the one we are to obey

deuteronomy 18:15-19 "The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him. 16For this is what you asked of the Lordyour God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, “Let us not hear the voice of the Lord our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die.”17The Lord said to me: “What they say is good. 18I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him. 19I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name."

Now look at the things Jesus said about His teaching and His words

john 12:49 "For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken."

john 7:16 ""My teaching is not My own," Jesus replied. "It comes from Him who sent Me."

john 8:26 ""I have much to say about you and much to judge. But the One who sent Me is truthful, and what I have heard from Him, I tell the world."

john 8:28 "So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing on My own, but speak exactly what the Father has taught Me."

john 14:24 "Whoever does not love Me does not keep My words. The word that you hear is not My own, but it is from the Father who sent Me."

peter john 6:68 "Simon Peter replied, "Lord, to whom would we go? You have the words of eternal life."

if you dount Jesus is the prophet promised in deuteronomy check out acts 3:22, 7:37. Jesus ois the Christ part of His role was to speak the very words of God to the world, that the isrealites were afraid to hear any more of way back then. the law of moses is like looking through a dark viel, but Jesus ministry removes that veil and we see God and His word as it truly is, knowing His Love for us, rather than being afraid to hear His word, it comes to us from one who gave His life in exchange for ours

2 corinthains 3:14-17 "But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom."

and the spirit?

John 6:63 " .....the words i have spoken to you are spirit and Life"

its Jesus ministry that we follow, not moses, and definately not anyone saying to disregard Jesus ministry. we obey Jesus

john 15:9-11 "As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete."

 

[Whassup]

anyone who wants to understand that Jesus was a minister of circumcision( Jews) and that most of what He taught was the law

That's not true brutha bro man... false grace teachers claim very little of Jesus' teaching apply to us today which is why they are false teachers and should be ignored.

Luke 16:16
The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Starting with John D Baptist, God's official message to mankind was the Gospel of the Kingdom which is all about living in the Kings Domain which can only be done by allowing the King to live in us (I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people - 2 Corinthians 6:16)

Example, remember when Jesus said it was a sin to lust after a woman in your heart (Matthew 5:28)? Under the law there is no reference that lusting after the ladies is a sin unless of course you actually do it.

Under the New Covenant the Lord desires to live in us (we should walk in the Spirit by allowing the Spirit to live / walk in us), so Jesus was raising the bar preparing listeners for the Holy Spirit that would come to live in them, empowering them to control themselves and to even remove the desire to sin.

The general teachings of Jesus are all applicable to us today because He taught the Gospel of the Kingdom... not the gospel of grace, not the grace revolution (grace is just one part of teaching the Gospel of the Kingdom) that TV preachers tickle people's ears with and make millions off of.

 

[JaumeJ]

Please excuse my code; stragnin should read straying......talk about your typo!

There is so much written about the law in the New Testement, and so much more not understood about those writings.

All will understand the law perfectly under grace if they learn from the teaching of Jesus Christ on the subject. Paul learned from Jesus Christ. All are invited by Jesus Christ to come to Him to learn, yet the vasst majority prefer the complications that came after His teachings by letters to assembies with specific problems needing to be addressed because they were straginin from the teaching of the Gospel by our Lord, god and Savior. Learnf rom God, we are invited to do so.

 

[followjesus]

There is so much written about the law in the New Testement, and so much more not understood about those writings.

All will understand the law perfectly under grace if they learn from the teaching of Jesus Christ on the subject. Paul learned from Jesus Christ. All are invited by Jesus Christ to come to Him to learn, yet the vasst majority prefer the complications that came after His teachings by letters to assembies with specific problems needing to be addressed because they were straginin from the teaching of the Gospel by our Lord, god and Savior. Learnf rom God, we are invited to do so.

amen to that, learning from Jesus is Life, as long as we apply it to our lives. to learn from Him, and then not follow what we learn however will bring conviction, and conviction left un checked will lead to destruction. i guess this is kind of my point that there is a difference in the commands given through moses, and those given through Jesus. im just gonna give one example that i feel is very clear but there are many, and again please understand im not speaking against the mosaic Law, im only saying, its not meant to govern christians, we should know it learn from it, but we are not under its authority. the example im gonna give, should show that there is an absolute difference, and also that if i follow moses, i will then have freedom to transgress Jesus and His ministry because they are different

in the Law it is written

deuteronomy 24:1-4 "If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, 2and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man, 3and her second husband dislikes her and writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, or if he dies, 4then her first husband, who divorced her, is not allowed to marry her again after she has been defiled. That would be detestable in the eyes of the Lord. Do not bring sin upon the land the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance."

this was the command of God, given to moses in the book of the law. Jesus then came later and said this

matthew 5:31-32 "It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: 32But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery."


you see what im saying? if i follow moses command, im free to divorce if my wife makes me unhappy or if i find something that is dipleasing to me. if i were to take that and follow it, then i have transgressed against Jesus, because He says there is only 1 reason for divorce, and he says also which differs from moses as well that if i then go re marry, i cause myself to be an adulterer, whoever she remarries i cause to become an adulterer.

i hope this soprt of points to what ive been saying about the Law, not being the same as the gospel. what moses taught was good , right, holy was Gods word then, But Jesus came and taught differently than Moses. to have one law that frees me to divorce if i wish and send my wife away, and then both i and her are free to re marry, and then another Law that says the only reason acceptable for divorce, is fornication, and to divoprce for any other reason makes a person and thier spouse and adulterer. those are 2 different directives, i cant follow both. and again, there is immense value in the mosaic Law, truly, it helps to really understand the gospel, and all that Has been done by the Lord.


i apologize for the " tone" you perceive in me at times, i can only say that tone is not as it may seem, and when dealing with each other in text form, its hard to really see the tone, wheras face to face the same words may be taken in a totally different tone if that makes sense. God bless you. and lol i ramble so imna throw in one more point as im thinking here

how does Jesus teach us? isnt it through the spiritual gifts that come through each other for our edification? I know in my Life, even in the 10 months ive been here on this site, ive learned alot from people who dont come fopr the purpose of argument and insult and proving the other guy wrong, but those who simply offer and share the things God has taught them. a few of those folks arent here anymore, and others i rarely see on here. but Just as that is true, there are also those i cannot at all learn anything from, because they do not see themselves.

 

[followjesus]

That's not true brutha bro man... false grace teachers claim very little of Jesus' teaching apply to us today which is why they are false teachers and should be ignored.

Luke 16:16
The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Starting with John D Baptist, God's official message to mankind was the Gospel of the Kingdom which is all about living in the Kings Domain which can only be done by allowing the King to live in us (I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people - 2 Corinthians 6:16)

Example, remember when Jesus said it was a sin to lust after a woman in your heart (Matthew 5:28)? Under the law there is no reference that lusting after the ladies is a sin unless of course you actually do it.

Under the New Covenant the Lord desires to live in us (we should walk in the Spirit by allowing the Spirit to live / walk in us), so Jesus was raising the bar preparing listeners for the Holy Spirit that would come to live in them, empowering them to control themselves and to even remove the desire to sin.

The general teachings of Jesus are all applicable to us today because He taught the Gospel of the Kingdom... not the gospel of grace, not the grace revolution (grace is just one part of teaching the Gospel of the Kingdom) that TV preachers tickle people's ears with and make millions off of.

thats really reallly good stuff

 

[followjesus]

Please excuse my code; stragnin should read straying......talk about your typo!

my typos are plentiful and that comment about learning from Jesus is what its ALLLLLLL about !!

 

[Grace777x70]

Acts 20:24 (NASB)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] "But I do not consider my life of any account as dear to myself, so that I may finish my course and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify solemnly of the gospel of the grace of God.

 

[Whassup]

thats really reallly good stuff

It's time for all that truly love the Lord to... go back to the foundational teachings of Jesus Christ and the Apostles.

2 Corinthians 11:3
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

'Ol slewfoot is working overtime to corrupt people's mind (understanding) by taking them away from scriptures in favor of fables and traditions of men... and he is using TV preachers to do it, and of course since they are popular and look cool and all that, it filters out to the rest of the church causing many to fall away!

The ad thing is many don't know they are following a different jesus... one that cherishes the things of men not things of God.

God is calling His people back to the foundation that cannot be moved... the foundational teachings of Jesus Christ and the Apostles

 

[followjesus]

It's time for all that truly love the Lord to... go back to the foundational teachings of Jesus Christ and the Apostles.

2 Corinthians 11:3
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

'Ol slewfoot is working overtime to corrupt people's mind (understanding) by taking them away from scriptures in favor of fables and traditions of men... and he is using TV preachers to do it, and of course since they are popular and look cool and all that, it filters out to the rest of the church causing many to fall away!

The ad thing is many don't know they are following a different jesus... one that cherishes the things of men not things of God.

God is calling His people back to the foundation that cannot be moved... the foundational teachings of Jesus Christ and the Apostles

i have never agreed with and rejoiced so much over a statement as that ! and how devastating it is to see the many false doctrines that omit the only true Gospel, pulling people away from those very things.....if we will Just focus on Jesus Christ and His gospel , God will honor us 100 out of 100 times for eternity. really great stuff thank you that was much needed.

May the Lord open a door for you to share that with as many as will listen, and hear the call of the Lord Jesus to come Home from the mire....

 

[jaybird88]

has anyone ever been swayed during these debates to change sides? seems like they just go on andf on with the same ole same ole.
so many times i click on these threads thinking im gonna post one of my law lover scriptures, then i think . . . .i dont have the energy for this anymore as it goes nowhere.

 

[JaumeJ]

Looking at the title of this OP, who here says the ministry of Jesus Christ teaches the law (I say this in reference to that old bugaboo, the law from Moses.)?

Jesus teaches we should abey the law according to His teachings. God is not stupid. He does not make erros, and He does not change.

When a person reads the Word guided by the Holy Spirit to understanding, at least understanding abotu this subject, that person will know that we are saved by grace but by no means are to ignore God's wisdoem from His laws.

If yo do not understand this yet, study the teachings of Jesus Christ. He invites us all to learn of Him. Paul learned from Jesus Christ, and he knows there is no other gospel than that of Jesus Christ. It is Christs' Godpel that saves, not understanding the problems of the first assemblies alone. Learn from God, just as Paul did.

 

[followjesus]

Looking at the title of this OP, who here says the ministry of Jesus Christ teaches the law (I say this in reference to that old bugaboo, the law from Moses.)?

Jesus teaches we should abey the law according to His teachings. God is not stupid. He does not make erros, and He does not change.

When a person reads the Word guided by the Holy Spirit to understanding, at least understanding abotu this subject, that person will know that we are saved by grace but by no means are to ignore God's wisdoem from His laws.

If yo do not understand this yet, study the teachings of Jesus Christ. He invites us all to learn of Him. Paul learned from Jesus Christ, and he knows there is no other gospel than that of Jesus Christ. It is Christs' Godpel that saves, not understanding the problems of the first assemblies alone. Learn from God, just as Paul did.

there are alot pf people who teach that He taught the Law of Moses. but again you dont see a difference in

" if you are displeased with your wife, write her a certificate of doveorce and send here away and then both are free to re marry" thats what is written in the law of moses.

Jesus said something different than that. He says " there is only one valid reason for divorce, marital unfaithfulness, and if you divorce for any other reason, yu arethen an adulterer and cause the wife who remarries and her new husband to be adulterers"

you have to admit they are different dont you? i can give another 20 examples that are the same way. you cant obey moses, and still be obeying Jesus. if i follow moses, i will transgress Jesus. He isnt teaching us to obey the mosaic Law, He is teaching us to obey the truth of Gods Kingdom. but i think even if i give another 20 examples, it wont make a doifference in this discussion. do you not see a difference in the priesthood change either? and that that preisthood change means the law changes also? there are parts of the gospel in the Law, parts of the Law in the gospel, but they are very different as a whole. we died to One, and we are alive to another both require obedience to God, the gospel is far superior though.


anyways, thanks for the discussion and not going to a point of childish jabs and things that some do. I like discussiong different ideas, i dont like arguing for the sake of arguing.

 

[followjesus]

has anyone ever been swayed during these debates to change sides? seems like they just go on andf on with the same ole same ole.
so many times i click on these threads thinking im gonna post one of my law lover scriptures, then i think . . . .i dont have the energy for this anymore as it goes nowhere.

i dont think many folks change at the moment. I do think even a disagreement. opens the moind and offers scriptural based things that maby we didnt see before and then later when it sinks in, when were out of everyones sight alone with God, God works through His word to give understanding. its not at all that one persons right the other is wrong...sometimes a disagreement comes because to people are correct in believing what they believe, but are at two different stages of developement. God gives us understanding as we are prepared to be able to handle that Knowledge and live up to it. were all growing, pressing forward i hope anyways that we all grasp that were not supposed to rest in what we Know now, but pressing forward gives rest to the soul.

I look at discussions like this as seed, that may sprout something Later in our growing understanding Of Gods Son

 

[seed_time_harvest]

ughh... are you authorized By God to adjust any 1 law? or is Jesus the One who holds the authority to do so>????? Jesus ministry already divided everything for you folks, the simplicity is to Learn the ministry of Jesus, and obey it, if you do that....wow you will be following the spirit. if you are not following it, wow, you are not following the spirit. its very simple. the law is not to be divided in any way it contains over 400 regulations and rules, commands and ordinances but

james 2:10 "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."

the Law of moses is 1, and we arent to divide the mosaic Law in any way, Jesus did that, He was ordained long ago to do that. the Law of moses is a viel to those who follow it

2 corinthains 3:14-17 "But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom."


and now, where is the spirit found according to the gospel?

John 6:63...the words I have spoken to you are full of the spirit and Life."

before you discount this verse, find another that says the spirit is in these words or any other place the spirit comes to us from, the only place is the words of Jesus, but thats just according to Jesus. if you want to " establish the law of moses youi should grasp that means every detail of it, and you also should realize its against man, a witness against us

deuteronomy 31:26 ""Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God. There it will remain as a witness AGAINST you."

the Law of moses is the Law that governs judaism, lol do this, study judaism and thier Law and you will find..wow its the first 5 books of moses. and where is the mosaic Law found????? the first 5 books of moses. Judaisms Law came through Moses, anyone who has been baptized into Christ, is dead to the Law, and the Law ends at death. your confusing Jesus ministry which is " the Law of the spirit of life" with the mosaic Law, which IS NOT the law of sin and death, the lAW OF MOSES IS GOOD RIGHTEOUS and hooly. the law of sin and death, was the law of sin living in us. theres nothing wrong with the mosaic Law, its purpose was only to get the world through until Christ came with the reality of things. there is no provision for the flesh lol in Jesus mnistry, thats who we obey, He gave the commands of God, moses commands were given to darkened hearts. a viel covered them and still does when someone adheres to it. why do you think paul was so adament that christians were not to adhere to it? constantly he argued agauinst judiazers, who are those who came after paul and tried to force christians to obey the Law of moses. why did paul teach us that we died to the mosaic law? and that the mosaic lAW ONLY APPLIES UNTIL A PERSONS DEATH? why did paul say clearly " you have been released from the Law, so that you can serve God?

Why does paul say that the law actually caused more sinful passions to be aroused in us? because we were sinners, given a holy Law. give a rebel a law, and by nature they will want to break that Law, thats what a sinner is, a rebel. that kind of Law is like a prison, full of criminals that arent allowed outside, they want to go break the law, but they are restricted from doing so. Jesus ministry is not like that, it gives rebirth. a new heart, new attitudes, a new Person emerges through the gospel ministry. we obey with all our Heart, but we obey the fullness of Gods word, which is Jesus and all His commands are Gods commands meant for the church. He is the prophet promised in deuteronomy 18 when the people begged to no longer Hear gods word, Jesus would come with Gods words and speak them to the world. there is no provision for flesh in Jesus ministry thats absurd. im saying we obey Him, not moses. to obey moses means we have to transgress what Jesus taught. they are different One is looking through a darkened viel, the other is to see clearly.

Do you believe that a person should try to keep the law and be under grace at the same time or do you believe a person should be under law until they are under grace?

 

[FreeNChrist]

i dont think many folks change at the moment. I do think even a disagreement. opens the moind and offers scriptural based things that maby we didnt see before and then later when it sinks in, when were out of everyones sight alone with God, God works through His word to give understanding. its not at all that one persons right the other is wrong...sometimes a disagreement comes because to people are correct in believing what they believe, but are at two different stages of developement. God gives us understanding as we are prepared to be able to handle that Knowledge and live up to it. were all growing, pressing forward i hope anyways that we all grasp that were not supposed to rest in what we Know now, but pressing forward gives rest to the soul.

I look at discussions like this as seed, that may sprout something Later in our growing understanding Of Gods Son

Right. Our hope is that at some time you will grow to understand that God the Fathers Son is God.

 

[followjesus]

Do you believe that a person should try to keep the law and be under grace at the same time or do you believe a person should be under law until they are under grace?

i believe this, what i believe everything i believe can be found in matthew mark Luke and John. I believe to understand Grace, we have to believe what Jesus said because " Grace and truth came through Jesus Christ" i dont believe in any way that Grace means we arent supposed to obey Jesus and what He said. I believe the mosaic Law, was " the Law given through moses" to the isrealites exclusively. what im saying is that at horeb the isrealites begged moses to ask God not to speak to them any Longer, they said " we will die" if we continue to Hear Gods voice, and see His fire."


That is where the viel came, God is merciful always has been Gods response to thier request to hear no more of what He was saying was " to promise to send Jesus, who would speak His own words to the them, and that He is the one we are to obey, those who do not will be held to account By God." those scriptures are quoted a few times in this thread.


Grace and Law are not opposed at all, The gospel ministry of Jesus in His own words are the truth that came in Gods own words, Moses heard from God, then told the people. the issue with the Law was not the Law, but that it came to sinners who didnt want to hear Gods word, they had heard enough because Gods word, reveals our sin and when we understand sin is death, condemnation comes through the Law. this condemnation, reveals to us that we need God mercy or we are Lost, Jesus gave that mercy from God that frees us from the law that is meant to condemn. the issue i have with Grace doctrine as it is taught in the world today, is that it denies what our Lord and savior, who brought that Grace, actually said.


Grace alone folks say they dont deny Jesus words at all yet show them




matthew6:46-49 Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?47As for everyone who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice, I will show you what they are like.48They are like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built.49But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete.”

or show them

john 14:23-24 "Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.24Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me."

and then all the sudden, thats law of moses and doesnt apply. Grace teaches us TO obey God, but Hios true commands that we are to keep came through Jesus Christ, not moses. Moses then under the first covenant, but the Law of moses doesnt ever offer eternal Life, only Jesus words offer that. Grace is for this purpose

titus 2:11-15 "For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age,13while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,14who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good."

Gods grace that does this, that teaches us to say no to evil and to live godly Lives, is found in the teachings of Jesus. Grace doesnt omit the Law of God, Jesus spoke all of these things and we have record of His words for a reason. the gospel is full of things loike those two teachings that are very clear that to hear His word and disobey it will bring destruction, to hear his word and apply it will bring eternal Life. Grace came through Jesus, and teaching came through Jesus. Grace doesnt not change a sinner, it changes a sinner to a saint in the course of time. no change comes until we follow the things Jesus himself said.

to simplify, Jesus mnistry in the four gospels are full of Grace and truth, the Law of moses is for learning, Jesus teachings are for Life eternal.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

i believe this, what i believe everything i believe can be found in matthew mark Luke and John. I believe to understand Grace, we have to believe what Jesus said because " Grace and truth came through Jesus Christ" i dont believe in any way that Grace means we arent supposed to obey Jesus and what He said. I believe the mosaic Law, was " the Law given through moses" to the isrealites exclusively. what im saying is that at horeb the isrealites begged moses to ask God not to speak to them any Longer, they said " we will die" if we continue to Hear Gods voice, and see His fire."


That is where the viel came, God is merciful always has been Gods response to thier request to hear no more of what He was saying was " to promise to send Jesus, who would speak His own words to the them, and that He is the one we are to obey, those who do not will be held to account By God." those scriptures are quoted a few times in this thread.


Grace and Law are not opposed at all, The gospel ministry of Jesus in His own words are the truth that came in Gods own words, Moses heard from God, then told the people. the issue with the Law was not the Law, but that it came to sinners who didnt want to hear Gods word, they had heard enough because Gods word, reveals our sin and when we understand sin is death, condemnation comes through the Law. this condemnation, reveals to us that we need God mercy or we are Lost, Jesus gave that mercy from God that frees us from the law that is meant to condemn. the issue i have with Grace doctrine as it is taught in the world today, is that it denies what our Lord and savior, who brought that Grace, actually said.


Grace alone folks say they dont deny Jesus words at all yet show them




matthew6:46-49 Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?47As for everyone who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice, I will show you what they are like.48They are like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built.49But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete.”

or show them

john 14:23-24 "Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.24Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me."

and then all the sudden, thats law of moses and doesnt apply. Grace teaches us TO obey God, but Hios true commands that we are to keep came through Jesus Christ, not moses. Moses then under the first covenant, but the Law of moses doesnt ever offer eternal Life, only Jesus words offer that. Grace is for this purpose

titus 2:11-15 "For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age,13while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,14who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good."

Gods grace that does this, that teaches us to say no to evil and to live godly Lives, is found in the teachings of Jesus. Grace doesnt omit the Law of God, Jesus spoke all of these things and we have record of His words for a reason. the gospel is full of things loike those two teachings that are very clear that to hear His word and disobey it will bring destruction, to hear his word and apply it will bring eternal Life. Grace came through Jesus, and teaching came through Jesus. Grace doesnt not change a sinner, it changes a sinner to a saint in the course of time. no change comes until we follow the things Jesus himself said.

to simplify, Jesus mnistry in the four gospels are full of Grace and truth, the Law of moses is for learning, Jesus teachings are for Life eternal.

JESUS said,the words HE spoke were Spirit and they are Life.
In other words,get saved first and then by the mercies of GOD,renew your mind.

BTW,GOD said the law and grace don't mix,either work Is work or grace Is grace.

 

[followjesus]

JESUS said,the words HE spoke were Spirit and they are Life.
In other words,get saved first and then by the mercies of GOD,renew your mind.

BTW,GOD said the law and grace don't mix,either work Is work or grace Is grace.

well well have to disagree. i will forever stick with what Jesus said, knowing that He knows and i dont until i learn what He said and believe it. because thats what the bible says, the difference in what you are saying and what i am saying is the "lens" i look through the lense of the gospels, the words of Jesus Himself, and understqand scripture through His teachings, you are looking at what came after and looking through that Lens. we cant pretend that Jesus didnt teach obedience, He did absolutely give many warnoings that to disobey His teachings will save no one.

when he says those things, the lense of grace alone, omits it because it causes a preconcieved notion that God has changed. He didnt, and never will, the change has to be in the person through belief. its notthat grace omits obedience. the grace that Jesus provided in His words, teach us obedience. to persistantly deny the only teacher, leaves us lost.

again though, this is my belief, i believe first and foremost what Jesus said, and then understand the rest of scripture through the true Gospel, the gospel recorded in the gospel according to matthew, the gospel according to mark, the gospel accrding to luke, and the gospel according to John. ill stick with the one God sent to teach the truth, ill stay with the way, the truth and Life, the only way to the father, ill go through Jesus to get to My Father and honor His word because He gave His Life. the proof of Huis truth is a changed Life that i have experienced im not searching for a way out of having to obey him, when i learn a teaching of his i apply it and just as He said, freedom comes through faith.


again though were all gonna believe what we believe, i believe Jesus Words and will forec=ver press forward in the things He taught and always reject the notion " his words are good but not meant for Gods children" that is until someonbe shows me the scriptures saying otherwise