The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !
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B
Yes, Phil, you make a good point. The Lord Jesus alone is our atonement, for it is written:
"And He [Jesus] Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world" (1 John 2:2).
Also, we read, "but now [God] commands all men everywhere to repent because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead" (Acts 17:30-31).
In other words, if there were no Savior available to all men everywhere, then there's no reason for all men to repent. Only selected men would need to apply, which is completely false.
"And He [Jesus] Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world" (1 John 2:2).
Also, we read, "but now [God] commands all men everywhere to repent because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead" (Acts 17:30-31).
In other words, if there were no Savior available to all men everywhere, then there's no reason for all men to repent. Only selected men would need to apply, which is completely false.
Can all men be saved?
If Jesus died for all men...no one should have gone in hell. Like I said before that the salvation He was offering is conditional--"only those believe" and many will not find it.
As it written:
Matthew 7:13
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it."
If Jesus died for all men...no one should have gone in hell. Like I said before that the salvation He was offering is conditional--"only those believe" and many will not find it.
As it written:
Matthew 7:13
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it."
B
Fire_of_Elijah,
God is very capable of saving all men, but not all men want to be saved by God. That's the nature of a perverse mind and a wicket heart. Remember, all men have been invited to the wedding, but only those who actually arrive at the wedding are welcomed to participate in the festivity.
You need to mark the difference between what God can do with His sovereignty and how men respond to the sovereignty of the Most Holy God. Let's keep in mind that God is not Mr. Geppetto, and there exists evil in the heart of man. If that weren't the case, then humans wouldn't need a Savior to save them from sin and death.
Remember, "there is, therefore, now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus." The Lord is good.
God is very capable of saving all men, but not all men want to be saved by God. That's the nature of a perverse mind and a wicket heart. Remember, all men have been invited to the wedding, but only those who actually arrive at the wedding are welcomed to participate in the festivity.
You need to mark the difference between what God can do with His sovereignty and how men respond to the sovereignty of the Most Holy God. Let's keep in mind that God is not Mr. Geppetto, and there exists evil in the heart of man. If that weren't the case, then humans wouldn't need a Savior to save them from sin and death.
Remember, "there is, therefore, now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus." The Lord is good.
Jesus died for those it was promised that He shall save from their sins Matt 1:21
21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.[which means by the way, those he does not save from their sins were not his people]
Thats the promise, all else is speculation and doctrines of men and devils.
Lk 19:10
10For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.[which means those He came to seek and to save are not lost but found]
He came to do His Fathers will, that all the Father hath given Him, He should loose nothing Jn 6:39
39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given [perfect tense] me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
The word for will here is the greek word:
thelēma:
what one wishes or has determined shall be done
a) of the purpose of God to bless mankind through Christ
b) of what God wishes to be done by us
1) commands, precepts
2) will, choice, inclination, desire, pleasure
All that He hath given me indicates all who has been chosen by the Father, and has been given [ once and for all in the past time with effects into the present] by the Father to the Son for salvation and to give eternal life Jn 10:26-30
26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30I and my Father are one.
Now in light of the afore mentioned scriptures, how do we or should understand 1 Tim 2:4
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Who is it that desires this ? Is it not the Father of Jesus Christ who sent Him to do His will ?
Are the same people in view in 1 Tim 2:4 as is in Jn 6:39 ?
Where it is said of Jesus, that He should not loose nothing !!
What about those in 2 Pet 3 :9
9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Are the ones here, whom God is not willing that any should perish, the same as the ones in Jn 6:39 ?
If so, then the conclusion is , it is The Fathers will for the Son to save all and bring all to repentance as indicated, and if the Son does not, and looses some, that they perish, then He has not done His Fathers will. If any do perish that Christ is to save, according to His Fathers will [Jn 6:39] then Christ has failed in executing His Fathers will, because some has perished, whom His Father was not willing to perish [ 2 Pet 3:9], hence, Christ was a disappointment and not a complete Saviour.
He may have sought that was lost Lk 19:10, but He did not save all that was lost.
This is the dilemma we have if we say that Christ died for all men without exception to save them, but yet all men without exception are not saved, and some of them perish in their sins.
10621And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.[which means by the way, those he does not save from their sins were not his people]
Thats the promise, all else is speculation and doctrines of men and devils.
Lk 19:10
10For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.[which means those He came to seek and to save are not lost but found]
He came to do His Fathers will, that all the Father hath given Him, He should loose nothing Jn 6:39
39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given [perfect tense] me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
The word for will here is the greek word:
thelēma:
what one wishes or has determined shall be done
a) of the purpose of God to bless mankind through Christ
b) of what God wishes to be done by us
1) commands, precepts
2) will, choice, inclination, desire, pleasure
All that He hath given me indicates all who has been chosen by the Father, and has been given [ once and for all in the past time with effects into the present] by the Father to the Son for salvation and to give eternal life Jn 10:26-30
26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30I and my Father are one.
Now in light of the afore mentioned scriptures, how do we or should understand 1 Tim 2:4
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Who is it that desires this ? Is it not the Father of Jesus Christ who sent Him to do His will ?
Are the same people in view in 1 Tim 2:4 as is in Jn 6:39 ?
Where it is said of Jesus, that He should not loose nothing !!
What about those in 2 Pet 3 :9
9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Are the ones here, whom God is not willing that any should perish, the same as the ones in Jn 6:39 ?
If so, then the conclusion is , it is The Fathers will for the Son to save all and bring all to repentance as indicated, and if the Son does not, and looses some, that they perish, then He has not done His Fathers will. If any do perish that Christ is to save, according to His Fathers will [Jn 6:39] then Christ has failed in executing His Fathers will, because some has perished, whom His Father was not willing to perish [ 2 Pet 3:9], hence, Christ was a disappointment and not a complete Saviour.
He may have sought that was lost Lk 19:10, but He did not save all that was lost.
This is the dilemma we have if we say that Christ died for all men without exception to save them, but yet all men without exception are not saved, and some of them perish in their sins.
@BananaPie
"God is very capable of saving all men, but not all men want to be saved by God."
That's why it's conditional because the gift He's offering is not free to all men since many will be rejecting it. Thank u for proving my argument btw. God knew from the start that many would reject His offer...what's the point of saving them when He already knew their damnation?..He's all knowing God coz He knew things before it happens. It's pretty clear that Jesus died for the willing.
"You need to mark the difference between what God can do with His sovereignty and how men respond to the sovereignty of the Most Holy God."
You didn't get the whole picture of sovereignty. Since He is all-knowing and powerful therefore He can foreknow our future. It means He saw our decisions making from eternity past before it happen whether do u accept Him or not. There's no surprise for Him. He knew already who would be sent in hell and in heaven. The Holy Spirit won't bother to those who are not willing since He knows their decisions before they happen. Nonsense to say that these people are included to the finished work of Jesus Christ.
It's very clear that He chose us(those who believe) before the foundation of the world.
Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
"Remember, "there is, therefore, now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus." The Lord is good."
If you respond to the Gospel...that means you are one of the few whose name is listed in the Lamb's book of life.
God bless
"God is very capable of saving all men, but not all men want to be saved by God."
That's why it's conditional because the gift He's offering is not free to all men since many will be rejecting it. Thank u for proving my argument btw. God knew from the start that many would reject His offer...what's the point of saving them when He already knew their damnation?..He's all knowing God coz He knew things before it happens. It's pretty clear that Jesus died for the willing.
"You need to mark the difference between what God can do with His sovereignty and how men respond to the sovereignty of the Most Holy God."
You didn't get the whole picture of sovereignty. Since He is all-knowing and powerful therefore He can foreknow our future. It means He saw our decisions making from eternity past before it happen whether do u accept Him or not. There's no surprise for Him. He knew already who would be sent in hell and in heaven. The Holy Spirit won't bother to those who are not willing since He knows their decisions before they happen. Nonsense to say that these people are included to the finished work of Jesus Christ.
It's very clear that He chose us(those who believe) before the foundation of the world.
Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
"Remember, "there is, therefore, now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus." The Lord is good."
If you respond to the Gospel...that means you are one of the few whose name is listed in the Lamb's book of life.
God bless
I don't have any idea where you got this definition from.
The word is "
κόσμον." Transliterated "kosmon" which is a (noun, acusitive, masculine singular)
This is a link to the definition in strongs concordance: Strong's Greek: 2889. κόσμος (kosmos) -- order, the world
This is the definition from that link:
kosmos: order, the world
Original Word: κόσμος, ου, ὁPart of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: kosmos
Phonetic Spelling: (kos'-mos)
Short Definition: the world, universe
Definition: the world, universe; worldly affairs; the inhabitants of the world; adornment.
From a secular source I have this definition:
Κόσμος kosmos /ˈkɔz.mɔs/ male
Would you like to discuss the meaning of the word "all?"
! Timothy 2:3
[SUP]3 [/SUP]This is good, and pleases God our Savior, [SUP]4 [/SUP]who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
Romans 6:10
The death he died, he died to sin once for all ; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
Hebrews 7:27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.
There are obviously many more scriptures that I believe are contradicting your words. I would appreciate it if you could explain how all these things work together within the theology you have presented. Oh there is this question too:
Luke 19:10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”
Maybe this is just a simple misunderstanding.
we have to contend also with this verse: Hebrews 9:26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.
You see I think this is very clear. Jesus did away with all sin by the sacrifice of himself.
I think the confusion here could be from the fact that: even though Jesus did away with all sin by sacrificing himself; there are still multitudes who are lost. The simple explanation for this is that grace is a gift. It has to be accepted. Just as your name states we are all "saved by grace."
Romans 4:8 Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”
Romans 14
7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself . 8For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. 9For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
/end of topic God bless
7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself . 8For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. 9For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
/end of topic
God bless
J
What the context denotes it to be.
In the specific case of John 3:16, it doesn't matter what "world" means in regards to the question "What is the extent of the atonement?" The word in question is used to describe God's love, not the atonement of Christ. Peeps up in here gotta get better at reading scripture.
In the specific case of John 3:16, it doesn't matter what "world" means in regards to the question "What is the extent of the atonement?" The word in question is used to describe God's love, not the atonement of Christ. Peeps up in here gotta get better at reading scripture.
There is a song, a hymn, which I have always believed. "Whosoever will to the Lord may come." Also, Tin Tin's reference to Holy Scripture settles this posts allegation for me, that is, that it is in complete error.
Perhaps the poster should consider though He died for all mankind's sins, not all mankind chooses to walk in late, having chosen evil. This too is written.
Perhaps the poster should consider though He died for all mankind's sins, not all mankind chooses to walk in late, having chosen evil. This too is written.