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J
i suggest we move on and let the blind lead the blind.. they will both end up in a ditch i mean we're showing scriptures that proves the 10 commandments wasn't for us in the first place... too much pride to accept the truth that's what happening 14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch. [h=3]Matthew 15:14[/h]
way to take the scripture out context and make it say what you want it to say.. 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
Romans 2:13-18 scripture is talking about the jews...
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
Romans 2:13-18 scripture is talking about the jews...
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Jas 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
Jas 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
Jas 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
H
To john832 You have it right. The grace of God teaches us to be doers of the law and not hearers only. You who think you are saved by faith alone need to learn to read and obey what God tells you in His Word. Rom, ch.2 is the perfect spot to start learning what God requires for salvation. Rom. 2 condemns the self righteous Jew who knows the law but will not obey it. This unsaved Jew is judged by the Born again Gentile who loves God and loves God's laws, because the laws of God have been written on his heart by the Holy Spirit when he was born again by God. 2:29 says ,the real Jew is one who is born of God,(heart circumcision). 2:6-13 says that the saved person obeys God and the unsaved person, disobeys God. God judges all by their works, not just by their faith,, Both faith and works are required by God for salvation. love to all Hoffco
Really? Are you saying that we should then break every Law? Salvation is composed of two different parts...
Part 1: Being saved from death...
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
And that is done by faith in Christ...
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Part 2: Our reward...
Luk 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
Luk 19:13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
Luk 19:14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
Luk 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
Luk 19:16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
Luk 19:17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
Luk 19:18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
Luk 19:19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
Luk 19:20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
Luk 19:21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
Luk 19:22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
Luk 19:23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
Luk 19:24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
Luk 19:25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
Luk 19:26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
The first received 10 cities, the second received 5 cities and the last one received nothing.
1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
So, care to rephrase?
Part 1: Being saved from death...
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
And that is done by faith in Christ...
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Part 2: Our reward...
Luk 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
Luk 19:13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
Luk 19:14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
Luk 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
Luk 19:16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
Luk 19:17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
Luk 19:18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
Luk 19:19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
Luk 19:20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
Luk 19:21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
Luk 19:22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
Luk 19:23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
Luk 19:24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
Luk 19:25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
Luk 19:26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
The first received 10 cities, the second received 5 cities and the last one received nothing.
1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
So, care to rephrase?
H
Hi John,
Why do you continue with such a lame tactic.
Your allegation that anyone under grace will suddenly go out running wild, living selfishly, has no foundation whatsoever.
Consider also the behavior of Adventists. Anyone who knows Adventists will know how they always fail to keep the commandments.
Christians are in the book of life, which is Christ. Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5
Non-believers (which includes those who profess to know God but deny Him through seeking to establish righteousness through works of the law), will be judged out of the other books (the law of sin and death).
How will you be judged?
Why do you continue with such a lame tactic.
Your allegation that anyone under grace will suddenly go out running wild, living selfishly, has no foundation whatsoever.
Consider also the behavior of Adventists. Anyone who knows Adventists will know how they always fail to keep the commandments.
Christians are in the book of life, which is Christ. Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5
Non-believers (which includes those who profess to know God but deny Him through seeking to establish righteousness through works of the law), will be judged out of the other books (the law of sin and death).
How will you be judged?
Nice Biblical refutation. How will you be judged?
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Perhaps you don't think you fall into this category "every man"?
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Perhaps you don't think you fall into this category "every man"?
H
God is the God of the living, not the dead.
Matt 22:32
‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living"
The spiritually dead (non-believers) will be judged by the books of the law of sin and death, according to their works. They will be found guilty of all the law as they have not kept the law perfectly, James 2:10.Anyone who is lukewarm, mixing grace with works of the law, is seen as a non-believer (dead) and God will reject them, Rev 3:15,16.
We cannot be lukewarm by mixing grace with works of the law.
Rom 11:6
if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
And the spiritually living will be judged by their works of believing in Jesus (John 6:29), hence their name will be found in the Book of Life (Christ Jesus).
Matt 22:32
‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living"
The spiritually dead (non-believers) will be judged by the books of the law of sin and death, according to their works. They will be found guilty of all the law as they have not kept the law perfectly, James 2:10.Anyone who is lukewarm, mixing grace with works of the law, is seen as a non-believer (dead) and God will reject them, Rev 3:15,16.
We cannot be lukewarm by mixing grace with works of the law.
Rom 11:6
if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
And the spiritually living will be judged by their works of believing in Jesus (John 6:29), hence their name will be found in the Book of Life (Christ Jesus).
H
I would like to go on record that some seventh Day adv. are some of my best friends. And I have had some great conversations with JW's and Mormons . I really don't think the last two will be saved, but if Christ forgives them for some of their foolish teachings they hold ,I would second the motion, they are some of the most wonderful people on earth, better than some of the "faith only" christians, who are down right nasty to me. I can not fellowship with the last two, but I can with the 7th day Adv. I enjoyed their service which I went to and preached there once. But the 7th day sab. is a braker for me. I will not be judged over a sabbath, and will not give up the Lord's day. I would say to my fellow defender of Holiness as a requirement for salvation, john832, be more careful to check the context before making bold assumptions. Rev. 20:13 is only talking about the wicked dead not Christians. The Christian are judged on their works in Rev.21:7, it is the Christian "over comers" who are rewarded the New earth. But in v. 8 the wicked are put into the lake of fire."the second death". And in Romans 2:6-13 all the dead will be judged acc. to their works.The saved Gentile of Rom. 2 will be saved and the self righteous Jew of ch.2 is lost. Rom. 2 is a strong judgement against the self righteous Jews. Rom. 1 is the judgment of the lost Gentiles. Jesus also said the good people have "a res. unto life" but the bad people will have a "res, unto condemnation."John 5 29. The whole Bible teaches that the Just live by faith,Rom.1 they live their faith. James says that "faith is perfected by works,", and no one is justified by "faith only". Every denomination I know , has something "cultic" wrong in their doct. It is the Apostate age for sure. We are the last generation before Jesus comes back. We need to be busy winning soul for Jesus. Those who turn many to righteousness will shine as the stars forever and ever. Daniel Love to all, Hoffco
D
Yes, John I have heard of the resurrection and I am looking forward to it.
Unfortunately you missed my point or perhaps I did not state it clearly. The "dead" which you so eloquently listed (see below) have been resurrected and are still being referred to as the dead. This is because the bible uses the term dead in a different manner than we do in this society.
Here are some examples of how the bible uses the word dead in a different context than most of us use it.
The above uses the word dead to mean a state of being.
Something to think about.
Unfortunately you missed my point or perhaps I did not state it clearly. The "dead" which you so eloquently listed (see below) have been resurrected and are still being referred to as the dead. This is because the bible uses the term dead in a different manner than we do in this society.
Here are some examples of how the bible uses the word dead in a different context than most of us use it.
The above uses the word dead to mean a state of being.
Something to think about.
A
To john832 You have it right. The grace of God teaches us to be doers of the law and not hearers only. You who think you are saved by faith alone need to learn to read and obey what God tells you in His Word. Rom, ch.2 is the perfect spot to start learning what God requires for salvation. Rom. 2 condemns the self righteous Jew who knows the law but will not obey it. This unsaved Jew is judged by the Born again Gentile who loves God and loves God's laws, because the laws of God have been written on his heart by the Holy Spirit when he was born again by God. 2:29 says ,the real Jew is one who is born of God,(heart circumcision). 2:6-13 says that the saved person obeys God and the unsaved person, disobeys God. God judges all by their works, not just by their faith,, Both faith and works are required by God for salvation. love to all Hoffco
___________________
Therefore we are saved by faith alone, by the faith that works by love. (Gal.5:6; Rom.5:5)
This is the only true faith which works the works of God by the love of God which is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. It is the faith that, day by day, lays right hold upon the merits of the blood of a crucified and risen Saviour. (Rom.3:25)
ab
___________________
Therefore we are saved by faith alone, by the faith that works by love. (Gal.5:6; Rom.5:5)
This is the only true faith which works the works of God by the love of God which is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. It is the faith that, day by day, lays right hold upon the merits of the blood of a crucified and risen Saviour. (Rom.3:25)
ab
R
well the seventh day adventist church -used to- tell people that jesus isn't God and that there is no trinity...though they dropped those teachings they make it obvious that adventism was born in deep confusion from the very beginning...
and the seventh day adventists just won't -admit- to believing in salvation by works...they know that won't appeal to real christians...yet almost everything they write about the sabbath shows that they -do- believe in salvation by works...
and the seventh day adventists just won't -admit- to believing in salvation by works...they know that won't appeal to real christians...yet almost everything they write about the sabbath shows that they -do- believe in salvation by works...
H
Hi Josh,
True.
Adventists make the law their god. It's called, being perfected by the flesh (Gal 3:3). Self-righteousness.
But Adventists are a mixed bunch, and not all are legalists.
Some are true legalists declaring that anybody who does not keep the commandments, is lost.
But I've known many Adventists who are not legalists. They even work on the Sabbath or eat the foods they're not supposed to, unless one of the legalistic Adventists is nearby and watching.
Interestingly, whilst strict Adventists declare we have to keep the commandments, the fact is none of them keep the commandments anyway.
True.
Adventists make the law their god. It's called, being perfected by the flesh (Gal 3:3). Self-righteousness.
But Adventists are a mixed bunch, and not all are legalists.
Some are true legalists declaring that anybody who does not keep the commandments, is lost.
But I've known many Adventists who are not legalists. They even work on the Sabbath or eat the foods they're not supposed to, unless one of the legalistic Adventists is nearby and watching.
Interestingly, whilst strict Adventists declare we have to keep the commandments, the fact is none of them keep the commandments anyway.
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