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J
How was Jesus God? If Jesus was God, then who was the Father He spoke of so often? How could Jesus and the Father both be God at the same time?
The Apostle Paul affirms that the God the Israelites of the Old Testament knew - the One they looked to as their Rock of strength ( see Dt. 32:4 and Ps. 18:2) - was the One we know as Jesus Christ. Notice what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4
" For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ."
Jesus was the One who spoke to Moses and told him to return Egypt to bring the Israelites to freedom. Jesus was the Lord (YHWH) who caused the plague to come to Egypt. He was the God who led the Israelites out of Egypt and through wandering for 40 years. He was the Lawgiver who gave the laws to Moses and spoke to Moses on a regular basics. He was the Lord who dealt with Israel throughout their national history.
Yes, astounding as it seems, Jesus Christ is the Lord spoken of so often in the Old Testament.
The Apostle Paul affirms that the God the Israelites of the Old Testament knew - the One they looked to as their Rock of strength ( see Dt. 32:4 and Ps. 18:2) - was the One we know as Jesus Christ. Notice what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4
" For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ."
Jesus was the One who spoke to Moses and told him to return Egypt to bring the Israelites to freedom. Jesus was the Lord (YHWH) who caused the plague to come to Egypt. He was the God who led the Israelites out of Egypt and through wandering for 40 years. He was the Lawgiver who gave the laws to Moses and spoke to Moses on a regular basics. He was the Lord who dealt with Israel throughout their national history.
Yes, astounding as it seems, Jesus Christ is the Lord spoken of so often in the Old Testament.
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Before Jesus was actually born He wasn't speaking to anyone. He was the Word. I am sure He was involved with the old testament folk. Just was He was involved in creation as the spoken Word "let there be light". But not as a singular physical entity known as Jesus Christ.
Few oldtime protestant bible theologian I have looked up, says that this literally means they were talking to Jesus Christ. See Gill for example:
And the rock was Christ: that is, it signified Christ, it was a type of him. So the Jews (q) say, that the Shekinah is called סלע קדוש, "the holy rock"; and Philo the Jew says (r) of this rock, that the broken rock is η σοφια του θεου, "the wisdom of God". Christ may be compared to the rock for his outward meanness in his parentage and education, in his ministry and audience, in his life and death; and for his height also, being made higher than the kings of the earth, than the angels in heaven, and than the heavens themselves; and for shelter and safety from the wrath of God, and from the rage of men; and for firmness, solidity, and strength, which are seen in his upholding all things by his power, in bearing the sins of his people, and the punishment due unto them, in the support of his church, and bearing up his people under all afflictions and temptations, and in preserving them from a total and final falling away: and a rock he appears to be, as he is the foundation of his church and every believer, against which hell and earth can never prevail; and to it he may be likened for duration, his love being immovable, his righteousness everlasting, his salvation eternal, and he, as the foundation of his church, abiding for ever.
Wesley:
1Co 10:4 And all drank the same spiritual drink - Typical of Christ, and of that cup which we drink. For they drank out of the spiritual or mysterious rock, the wonderful streams of which followed them in their several journeyings, for many years, through the wilderness. And that rock was a manifest type of Christ - The Rock of Eternity, from whom his people derive those streams of blessings which follow them through all this wilderness. Exo_17:6.
Matthew Henry:
1Co 10:1-5
To dissuade the Corinthians from communion with idolaters, and security in any sinful course, the apostle sets before them the example of the Jewish nation of old. They were, by a miracle, led through the Red Sea, where the pursuing Egyptians were drowned. It was to them a typical baptism. The manna on which they fed was a type of Christ crucified, the Bread which came down from heaven, which whoso eateth shall live for ever. Christ is the Rock on which the Christian church is built; and of the streams that issue therefrom, all believers drink, and are refreshed. It typified the sacred influences of the Holy Spirit, as given to believers through Christ. But let none presume upon their great privileges, or profession of the truth; these will not secure heavenly happiness.
It's meant to be symbolic/figurative comparison. It typified the Messiah, but it was not the Messiah as the Messiah had not yet come. We have to be careful to distinguish between what typifies something, and what is literally something.
Few oldtime protestant bible theologian I have looked up, says that this literally means they were talking to Jesus Christ. See Gill for example:
And the rock was Christ: that is, it signified Christ, it was a type of him. So the Jews (q) say, that the Shekinah is called סלע קדוש, "the holy rock"; and Philo the Jew says (r) of this rock, that the broken rock is η σοφια του θεου, "the wisdom of God". Christ may be compared to the rock for his outward meanness in his parentage and education, in his ministry and audience, in his life and death; and for his height also, being made higher than the kings of the earth, than the angels in heaven, and than the heavens themselves; and for shelter and safety from the wrath of God, and from the rage of men; and for firmness, solidity, and strength, which are seen in his upholding all things by his power, in bearing the sins of his people, and the punishment due unto them, in the support of his church, and bearing up his people under all afflictions and temptations, and in preserving them from a total and final falling away: and a rock he appears to be, as he is the foundation of his church and every believer, against which hell and earth can never prevail; and to it he may be likened for duration, his love being immovable, his righteousness everlasting, his salvation eternal, and he, as the foundation of his church, abiding for ever.
Wesley:
1Co 10:4 And all drank the same spiritual drink - Typical of Christ, and of that cup which we drink. For they drank out of the spiritual or mysterious rock, the wonderful streams of which followed them in their several journeyings, for many years, through the wilderness. And that rock was a manifest type of Christ - The Rock of Eternity, from whom his people derive those streams of blessings which follow them through all this wilderness. Exo_17:6.
Matthew Henry:
1Co 10:1-5
To dissuade the Corinthians from communion with idolaters, and security in any sinful course, the apostle sets before them the example of the Jewish nation of old. They were, by a miracle, led through the Red Sea, where the pursuing Egyptians were drowned. It was to them a typical baptism. The manna on which they fed was a type of Christ crucified, the Bread which came down from heaven, which whoso eateth shall live for ever. Christ is the Rock on which the Christian church is built; and of the streams that issue therefrom, all believers drink, and are refreshed. It typified the sacred influences of the Holy Spirit, as given to believers through Christ. But let none presume upon their great privileges, or profession of the truth; these will not secure heavenly happiness.
It's meant to be symbolic/figurative comparison. It typified the Messiah, but it was not the Messiah as the Messiah had not yet come. We have to be careful to distinguish between what typifies something, and what is literally something.
"And God said, Let us make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." Gens 1:26
Lets go to the End of the bible now:
Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under his wings. Day and night they never stop saying: "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come." Rev4:8
Notice how it says "Holy Holy Holy" 3 Times. Why does it say this 3 times?? What is the significance of that? Why wouldnt john just write "They never stop saying Holy" ??? Because it is not just one being worshipped. However they are one in themselves.
I think it is quite obvious that the Father The Son & THe HolySpirit share a unexplainable relationship and are of each other. They all receive equal praise. all of equal importance & one would not be without the other.
Here's a question for you.. When did God the Father create Jesus? Anwser: He didn't! he was with him in the beginning. Read Gens Carefully & you will see how they have to be of one another.
These are just my opinions.
Lets go to the End of the bible now:
Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under his wings. Day and night they never stop saying: "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come." Rev4:8
Notice how it says "Holy Holy Holy" 3 Times. Why does it say this 3 times?? What is the significance of that? Why wouldnt john just write "They never stop saying Holy" ??? Because it is not just one being worshipped. However they are one in themselves.
I think it is quite obvious that the Father The Son & THe HolySpirit share a unexplainable relationship and are of each other. They all receive equal praise. all of equal importance & one would not be without the other.
Here's a question for you.. When did God the Father create Jesus? Anwser: He didn't! he was with him in the beginning. Read Gens Carefully & you will see how they have to be of one another.
These are just my opinions.
I
Jeremiah 7:1-7
Stand in the gate of the LORD's house, and proclaim there this word, and say, Hear the word of the LORD, all ye of Judah, that enter in at these gates to worship the LORD.
3Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, Amend your ways and your doings, and I will cause you to dwell in this place.
4Trust ye not in lying words, saying, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, are these.
5For if ye throughly amend your ways and your doings; if ye throughly execute judgment between a man and his neighbour;
6If ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt: 7Then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever.
Notice how this is ALSO said three times!
The distinctive characteristic of the first person, the Father, in the Holy Trinity is his Father-hood. His source lies solely in Himself and not in any other person. This is unlike the two persons of the Holy Trinity. The Son's, IC XC, distinctive characteristic is his Son-ship. Although XC is co-eternal and equal with the Father, He is not unbegotten or sourceless. His source and origin lies in the Father, from whom He is begotten or born from all eternity. The third person's, the Holy Spirit, distinctive characteristic is Procession. Just like the Son, the Holy Spirit finds His source and origin in the Father. But His relationship to the Father is different from that of the Son. The Holy Spirit is not begotten but from all eternity He proceeds from the Father. [This is where the Filioque controversy comes into play.]
It is important not to impair the balance between the three distinctive persons and the shared essence. There is one God because there is one Father, both XC and the Holy Spirit trace their origin and source to Him. The other two persons are described in terms of their relation to the Father. Since the Father is the sole source of being in the Holy Trinity, the Father constitutes in this way the ground of unity for the Godehead as a whole.
It is important not to impair the balance between the three distinctive persons and the shared essence. There is one God because there is one Father, both XC and the Holy Spirit trace their origin and source to Him. The other two persons are described in terms of their relation to the Father. Since the Father is the sole source of being in the Holy Trinity, the Father constitutes in this way the ground of unity for the Godehead as a whole.
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Modalistic (sabellian) is heresy my Christian friends. The teaching of the Trinity is perfectly intertwined systematically throughout scripture. Time for a review:
THE DEFINITION OF GOD'S UNITY:
"Unity" literally means "oneness." God is one Being, in contrast to many beings. There is one and only one God (monotheism) as opposed to many gods (polytheism).
There are three related words that should be distinguished:
(1) Unity-There are not two or more gods.
(2) Simplicity-There are not two or more parts in God.
(2) Simplicity-There are not two or more parts in God.
HOWEVER:
(3) Triunity-There are three persons in the one God.
The Scriptures affirm God's absolute unity from the beginning to the very end. The oneness of the Godhead is one of the most fundamental teachings of Scripture. Topical evidences include the theological basis for God's unity and the historical basis for God's unity.
With that in mind, we progress into;
THE BIBLICAL BASIS FOR THE TRINITY:
The doctrine of the Trinity is based on two basic biblical teachings:
(1) There is one and only one God.
The biblical, theological, and historical evidence for God's absolute
oneness has been established in scripture and history. We shall now address the second biblical teaching...
(2) There are three distinct persons who are God: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Three Different Persons Are God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
In addition to declaring God to be one in nature or essence, the scriptures affirm that there are three distinct persons who are God. All are called God, and all have the essential characteristics of a person. Personhood is traditionally understood as one who has intellect, feelings, and will.
All three of these characteristics are attributed to all three members of the Trinity in Scripture. Essentially, personhood refers to an "I," a "who," or a subject. Each "I" in the Trinity possesses (by virtue of its one common nature) the power to think, feel, and choose. Personhood itself is its I-ness or who-ness.
That Christ is God is affirmed in many passages and in many ways, both directly and indirectly. Yahweh is only used to refer to the one true God. No other person or thing was to be worshiped or served (Ex. 20:5), and His name and glory were not to be given to another.
Jesus prayed, "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began" (John 17:5)-this is an obvious claim for Christ's deity, for Jehovah of the Old Testament said, "My glory will I not give to another" (Isa. 42:8 NKJV). Jesus also declared, "I am the First and the Last" (Rev. l:l7)-precisely the words used by Jehovah in Isaiah 44:6. He said, "I am the good shepherd," (John 10:11), and the Old Testament said, "Jehovah is my shepherd" (Ps. 23:l ASV).
Further, Jesus claimed to be the judge of all men (John 5:27; Matt. 25:31), and Joel quotes Jehovah as saying, "There I will sit to judge all the nations on every side" (Joel 3:12). Likewise, Jesus spoke of Himself as the "bridegroom" (Matt. 25:lf.) while the Old Testament identifies Jehovah in this way (Isa. 62:5; Hosea 2:16). While the psalmist declares, "Jehovah is my light" (Ps. 27:l ASVJ) Jesus said, "I am the light of the world" (John 8:12).
Perhaps the strongest claim Jesus made to be Jehovah is in John 8:12 where He says, "Before Abraham was born, I am!" This statement claims not only existence before Abraham, but equality with the "I AM" of Exodus 3:14. The Jews around Jesus clearly understood His meaning and picked up stones to kill Him for blaspheming (cf. John 10:31-33). The same claim is also made in Mark 14:62 and John 18:5-6.
Jesus professed deity in other ways, one of which was by claiming for himself the perogatives of God such as forgiving sin (Mark 2:5). The scribes correctly responded with "Who can forgive but God alone?" afterwards. So to prove that His claim was not an empty boast, He healed the man, offering direct proof that what He had said about forgiving sins was true also. Jesus claimed, due only to God, the power to raise and judge the dead; boldly assumed for Himself powers that only God has; and claimed that he should be be honored as God.
Jesus Claimed to Be Messiah-God. The Old Testament teaches that the coming Messiah would be God Himself, so when Jesus claimed to be that Messiah, He was also claiming to be God. Jesus Claimed to Be God by Accepting Worship. The Old Testament forbids worshiping anyone other than God (Ex. 20:l-5; Deut. 5:6-9). The New Testament agrees, showing that men refused worship (Acts 14:13-15), as did angels (Rev. 22:8-9). But Jesus accepted worship on numerous occasions, revealing that He claimed to be God.
Jesus Claimed to Have Equal Authority With God. "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations" (Matt. 28:18-19).
Jesus Claimed to Be God by Requesting Prayer in His Name. Jesus not only asked people to believe in Him and obey His commandments, but He also asked them to pray in His name: "And I will do whatever you ask in my name...You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it" (John 14:13-14).
Jesus Claimed to Be God by His Use of Parables. Jesus' Disciples Acknowledged His Claim to Be God. Etc... etc... etc...
All members of the Trinity are equal in essence, but they do not have the same roles. In brief, the Father is the Planner, the Son is the Accomplisher, and the Holy Spirit is the Applier of salvation to believers.
What scripture plainly teaches is that God has one and only one essence (nature) and that it is not contradictory to have three persons in one essence.
All members of the Trinity are equal in essence, but they do not have the same roles. It is a heresy (called subordinationism) to affirm that there is an ontological subordination of one member of the Trinity to another, since they are identical in essence.
Nonetheless, it is clear that there is a finctional subordination; that is, not only does each member have a different function or role, but some functions are also subordinate to others.
A mistake I keep seeing you make in your posts Ed is not understanding that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit all share the same essence of God in an equal manner unsubordinate to each other; however, each member have different functions or roles with some functions being subordinate to others. This is where you are stumbling.
By His very title of "Father" and His label of "the first person of the Trinity," it is manifest thit His function is superior to that of the Son and the Holy Spirit. The Father, for example, is presented as the Source, Sender, and Planner of salvation.
The Son, on the other hand, is the Means, Sent One, and Achiever of salvation. The Father sent, and the Son came to save us; the Father planned it, but the Son accomplished it on the cross. This is why it is a heresy (called patripassianism) to claim that the Father suffered on the cross only the son suffered and died. Further, the Son is eternally "begotten" or "generated" from the Father, but the Father is never said to be "begotten" or "generated from anyone.
According to orthodox Western theology, the Holy Spirit proceeds both from the Father and the Son (see John 15:26). Jesus said, "When the Counselor comes, whom I will sent to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, He will testify about me" (John 15:26).
Their functional roles are as follows: the Father is the Planner, the Son is the Accomplisher, and the Holy Spirit is the Applier of salvation to believers. However, they are all equal in essence as God.
Jesus, as God, in his role as God the son the accomplisher of our salvation makes intercession for us just as the Bible says that He does in Hebrews 5 as our perfect high priest (e.g. a functional role).
One final word about the nature and duration of this functional subordination in the Godhead. It is not just temporal and economical; it is essential and eternal. For example, the Son is an eternal Son (see Prov. 30:4; Heb. 1:3). He did not become God's Son; He always was related to God the Father as a Son and always will be. His submission to the Father was not just for time but will be for all eternity.
Paul wrote: "Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom of God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. (1
Cor. 15:24, 28).
Cor. 15:24, 28).
The nature of God is the most fundamental factor in theology. Hence it is easy to defend. According to sound biblical, theological, and historical reasoning, the God of the Bible is the God of trinitarian monotheism. He is tri-personal, infinite, indivisible, immutable, eternal, all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving, and absolutely perfect and just. Deviation from any of these attributes results in an unorthodox view of God.
Now the heresy of sabellianism (this heresy has had a number of other names, based upon different facets of the heresy and various false conclusions that follow from it). Sabellianism emphasized the fact that God is one, wrongly concluding that in the Godhead there is a single (mon-) principle or rule (-arche). Thus the heresy was also called "Monarchianism" and rightfully denounced as heresy by the church.
Sabellians reduce the status of the persons of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit to modes or manifestations of the one God failing to recognize three persons share the essence of God yet still fulfill roles.
You'll find all sorts of lost people in bondage to cults like Jehovah Witness, Mormonism, etc... teaching this error of modalism false teaching which denies the persons of God.
Here's the famous apologist John Ankerberg engaging some Jehovah Witnesses on a point of discussion as but one simple example:
A
Please do not resort to lying and ad hominem argumentation. Thank you for your cooperation.
What does the Bible teach about the Trinity?
Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to correct you. Have a nice day.
What does the Bible teach about the Trinity?
Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to correct you. Have a nice day.
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Saying something as if your smarter than other people sdoesn;t make you correct, and I am not a modalist 
S
Feel free to refocus back on the discussion at any time and if you can add something meaningful to the discussion we would all appreciate it. Of course, we shall read it and systematically refute whatever is incorrect and in error utilizing an appropriate handling of the Word of God, apostolic tradition, and church history in accordance with authentic New Testament theology for you and all at no cost to give you a better understanding on your road to becoming a better person. You're welcome.
Said with love.