Was Paul "Mentally Ill"?

[Enow]

What would Paul's thorn in the flesh that would be attribued to a messenger of Stan to buffet him?

2 Corinthians 12:6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me. 7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong. 11 I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.

Paul has mentioned infirmities as in plural and so, even though some christians scholars believe Paul was referring to his eyesight because of this below:

Galatians 6:11 Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand.

Poor eyesight would not be something that would keep believers from thinking highly than they ought to think of him, nor would it be something as considered as a messenger of Satan that buffets him.

It could be that Paul was hearing voices.

If a disciple in the word was known that he was "mentally ill", would that not keep believers from exalting him more than they ought to think? Certainly, we would not think less of him for having poor eyesight.

I'm sure this will be highly debateable, but I give this thread as a message of hope to those that believe but are buffetted by a messenger of Satan. Maybe God is using that as a means to put you in a position to save some by sharing your hope in Christ Jesus.

1 Corinthians 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

1 Peter 3:14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; 15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: 16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

1 Peter 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: 13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

1 Peter 5:9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. 10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you. 11 To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

 

[Love4Truth]

Quote,
What would Paul's thorn in the flesh that would be attribued to a messenger of Stan to buffet him?

Rotf, I don't think a messenger of "Stan" would have done it. Just kidding...I know it was a typo.

I believe his thorn in the flesh, is the same as any of us who have The Revelation of Christ.
It has to do with "The Mind" and casting down imaginations and every high thing that exalts itself above The knowledge of God.

Until we put on The mind of Christ, we give Satan a place to accuse.
But with The mind of Christ, he has "no place".

God Bless

 

[nathan3]

Paul was Not "Mentally Ill, we should show more respect for a apostle chosen by Christ Himself........... His thorn in his side Could be his sight. He was blinded by the Lord and seems he had trouble seeing letters , so he had another apostle likely transcribe for him. Paul l used to persecute the church and this humbled him in his service to Christ. And he would mention it from time to time. Other then that. Paul was the sharpest man you would ever meat when it came to God's words and languages .

 

[Enow]

Quote,

What would Paul's thorn in the flesh that would be attribued to a messenger of Stan to buffet him?

Rotf, I don't think a messenger of "Stan" would have done it. Just kidding...I know it was a typo.

I believe his thorn in the flesh, is the same as any of us who have The Revelation of Christ.
It has to do with "The Mind" and casting down imaginations and every high thing that exalts itself above The knowledge of God.

Until we put on The mind of Christ, we give Satan a place to accuse.
But with The mind of Christ, he has "no place".

God Bless

I have done that alot. I usually catch it, but too late for this one. Hopefully the Stans of the world will forgive me.

Although this is true about bringing every imagination into captivity: we can do that with the help of Christ, but even though Paul had written these helpful instructions in regards to the battlefield of the mind...

2 Corinthians 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

Philippians 4:5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand. 6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. 7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. 8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. 9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

Still, Paul was bothered by a messenger of Satan to buffet him. That is different from entertaining wicked imaginations or carnal thoughts. One can hear voices that will not go away, but we can lean on Christ to ignore them and think on good things.

Women complain about men not listening to them. With His help, we can "zone out" the voices as people would zone out ringing in the ears or other sounds that doesn't go away.

 

[Enow]

Paul was Not "Mentally Ill, we should show more respect for a apostle chosen by Christ Himself........... His thorn in his side Could be his sight. He was blinded by the Lord and seems he had trouble seeing letters , so he had another apostle likely transcribe for him. Paul l used to persecute the church and this humbled him in his service to Christ. And he would mention it from time to time. Other then that. Paul was the sharpest man you would ever meat when it came to God's words and languages .

I understand your contention, but I hardly see having poor eyesight as a means for believers not to exalt him because of all the revelations he has had.

And I do not see how having poor eyesight was liken unto a messenger of Satan buffetting him, but I can see how hearing voices would be.

Still the question is up in the air. How I am led to the believe so, does not make it so, but for all those "labelled" as "mentally ill", they can take hope as a fellow sufferer in Christ Jesus that it looks like Paul has gone through it & so can they too.

 

[Love4Truth]

There was only one reason given for the buffeting, and that was for "the many Revelations" that Paul had received.

So I would say that it has everything to do with that, wouldn't you?

Thorns are associated with The Carnal mind, and goes all the way back to Adam.
And then seen on Christ's head on the Cross.

Because He took on that mind is no sign we won't have to, but through the Spirit are able to overcome it, the same as I'm sure Paul did. Remember it was also Paul who wrote about "Renewing the Mind" and how important it is. Who better to tell us about it than him?

Remember also, everywhere Paul preached he found resistance in the people, again because of the many Revelations of Christ. The Thorn in his flesh could have actually been through this venue as well, and not directly in him. Satan could have very well have worked through the people against Paul.

Just something to consider.

God Bless

 

[Enow]

There was only one reason given for the buffeting, and that was for "the many Revelations" that Paul had received.

So I would say that it has everything to do with that, wouldn't you?

Thorns are associated with The Carnal mind, and goes all the way back to Adam.
And then seen on Christ's head on the Cross.

Because He took on that mind is no sign we won't have to, but through the Spirit are able to overcome it, the same as I'm sure Paul did. Remember it was also Paul who wrote about "Renewing the Mind" and how important it is. Who better to tell us about it than him?

Remember also, everywhere Paul preached he found resistance in the people, again because of the many Revelations of Christ. The Thorn in his flesh could have actually been through this venue as well, and not directly in him. Satan could have very well have worked through the people against Paul.

Just something to consider.

God Bless

Thanks for the pause in consideration... but

2 Corinthians 12:6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me. 7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong. 11 I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.


From what is written, it was because of all of these revelations that he was given a thorn in the flesh to keep believers from exalting him more than they ought to think. Paul admits he is nothing and that it is God ministering through Him as well as to him.

If it was known that he was hearing voices accusing him, then that would keep believers from exalting him more than they ought to think.

If a believer you respect today as being rooted in the word turns out to hear voices that accuses him, and thus labelled by society as a mentally ill person, would that make you see him as a believer that God is ministering through and not to think of that believer higher than you ought to think?

 

[Grandpa]

Romans 7:15-25
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

I wonder if we could gain more insight through these verses in Romans? Maybe the messenger of the enemy is the one that brings our "favorite" sin(s) to mind...

I wonder and say maybe because I don't really know but I think that's what it is.

 

[PatientSpirit]

Thanks for the pause in consideration... but

2 Corinthians 12:6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me. 7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong. 11 I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.


From what is written, it was because of all of these revelations that he was given a thorn in the flesh to keep believers from exalting him more than they ought to think. Paul admits he is nothing and that it is God ministering through Him as well as to him.

If it was known that he was hearing voices accusing him, then that would keep believers from exalting him more than they ought to think.

If a believer you respect today as being rooted in the word turns out to hear voices that accuses him, and thus labelled by society as a mentally ill person, would that make you see him as a believer that God is ministering through and not to think of that believer higher than you ought to think?

I understand some of what Paul went through. Even now these revelations can exalt one beyond measure. Not by others as most met paul's message with disdain. No. Our thorns are infirmities. Reproaches and necessities. In persecutions and distresses. I see a little more everyday, and of a truth the simplest way I can describe it is that if the world really listens, there would be no poverty. All things would be common and all of mankind would be at peace now. But because that won't happen. Because by appearance I differ from no one else, being under the same elements, having need of food and shelter. Still getting sick with all the aches and pains associated with it. Getting banned simply for stating what I believe. These things I desire to be taken from me.

It's a balancing act and a struggle as I am buffeted by satan. I have a family too. These things make us weak to the eyes and a fool when preaching the truth of the gospel.

 

[crossnote]

Sorry, even the suggestion of Paul being mentally ill borders on blasphemy. Can't you see how the enemies of the Gospel of Grace would run with that one?
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. 2Tim 1:7

 

[nathan3]

[size=+2] I highlighted the words of Paul in Green, And Christ words in Red.

2nd Cor 11:

Paul teaches about false teachers. That creep in unawares. They talk to puff themselves up, with pocketbook religion , but never teach God's words.

2nd Cor 12It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

Paul is saying, its really not wise for me to boast. But if I do, I might as well boast about the higher forms of experiences I have had with The Father.
That non of the false preachers have had, though they claim, to have a personal walk with Jesus.



2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Paul is talking about himself, Paul is the man here. Since he is maybe boasting He can't put himself in the first person so he puts himself in the 3rd part.
This event happened about 14 years ago.
Paul was taken to the 3rd heaven. It doesn't prove anything really that I brag .But in as much as I am I'm going to brag about the highest forms. Not only do I understand the scriptures .I have been to Paradise .

2nd Peter chapter 3 Peter mentions one man after the 3rd heaven, Paul was who he mentions. Peter knew that Paul had made that journey 14 years before this writing. And there he says even the learned had trouble with understanding the teachings of Paul. Because Paul had something he really could boast about. Being taken to Paradise.


3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth )

He repeats .


4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Paradise is the holding place of all souls.Awaiting Judgment. It is impossible or not to explain with words what he saw.

5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.

6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.

I can go on and tell more; Paul says, But some of you might look at me an think ' I'm an angel or something more then what I am.
Paul knew he was a sinner. Paul says' I always set out to do something right and It seems i end up doing something different, but all men fall short of the Glory of God. But If i keep boasting they would think I'm and angel or something I'm not. Paul was a teacher of God's word nothing more nothing ells. A servant of God that paid the price of teaching the Truth without apologizing or taking anything from no one. And giving more grace and correction then any man that walked the earth beside Christ himself.

7 And lest I should be exalted (big head ; lest he should be carried away with all those truth shared with him ) above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

God gave this thorn to him. To keep him grounded so he would not get a big head. 'Messenger' is angel . Angel of Satan. even minsters of Satan, and they call themselves Christian minsters, that teach themselves not Christ.
God gave it him so he would not be exulted in his own mind or minds of other people.

8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

The thorn and the messenger , I asked God three times that it might depart from me.

9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Christ rest on him ; is like a wall that protects from a buffeting from Satan.
Christ did Not say ;My grace is sufficient for thee, for your, strength is made perfect in weakness.... It says MY, Strength is made perfect in weakness. Because when we are weak, The Holy Spirit comes into you ,and gives you that strength that part He know you need help with. And He lifts you in that grace, the unmerited favor. Thought we don't deserve it and touches our lives an uses us when we are not able. Only the Holy Spirit dwelling in us , when we have moments of pressure , The Holy spirit takes hold and makes us a man or women of steel. So we can carry forth the labor of The Living God. That's the Holy Spirit, And if it leaves us we fall. But with the Holy spirit we can overcome our bad habits and be useful to God with power; that is impossible for us alone to accomplish.

10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Is it for Christ sake we are in trouble or our own problems we are in trouble ? For Christ sake then the tent is there that no one can penetrate.And Christians then have power and might that no one can mess with. That power is the Holy Spirit.
The enemy will tell you to me mild. Paul was bold and strong . Paul said if some one touch one of my sheep I would burn up and strike out.
For Christ sake you must be strong. When man is week that allows the Holy Spirit to give a man or women of God the strength that is nessasary to acomplish against the angel of Satan that buffets' imnsults reproch that they run off your back like water.

11 I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.

I'm foolish for bragging about my trip to the 3rd heaven. compelled me - You brought it upon me by allowing those false teachers to slip in been commended of you- it should'nt have been nessesary you should have been comending me. cheifest apostles-- super preachers; Those super preachers that are not really from Christ with smooth tougnes. I'm above them , though I be nothing.

Its the Christ in us that gives us power to gives strength power, that performs miricles, gives cridentials and answers prayers. man is nothing alone . Even though Paul was taken to the 3rd heaven ,he was still flesh. But in him was a might Christian soilder .

12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.
You saw the miricals that happened when we taught.

13[color-green] For what is it wherein ye were inferior to other churches, except it be that I myself was not burdensome to you?( I didn't take money from you ) forgive me this wrong[/color]

It was a wrong, he should have., If Paul every made one mistake it might have been that. He did it to show the supper preachers what he was in it for ; to teach God's word. Because they had accused him of teaching for moneys sake. So he took no money so they could'nt say that. But they still accused him : they told the Corinthians '' Paul did'nt rip you off, but those he sent did' .

14 Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you;( ((the first time , 2nd was canseld and he is planing to go a erd time))) and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children.

Paul relates this to that he was the father in a spiritual sense to this church at Corinth

15 And I will very gladly spend and be spent for you; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved.

For spent for their souls. He loves them more they love him less the more he dose . they took him for granted ., Thats how people do eachother seems

16 But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.

Not burden them - answering the charge that some of the false brothers ,claimed, he let his helpers rip them off.
Crafty - They claim that i was crafty enough to let some other brother rip you off.

17 Did I make a gain of you by any of them whom I sent unto you?


The answer is NO, he had not.

8 I desired Titus, and with him I sent a brother. Did Titus make a gain of you? walked we not in the same spirit? walked we not in the same steps?

Did Titus make a gain of you? Did anyone I send make a gain of you ? walked we not in the same spirit ? Not the spirit of the super pocketbook preachers came in. same steps ? - Our actions were identical .


19 Again, think ye that we excuse ourselves unto you? we speak before God in Christ: but we do all things, dearly beloved, for your edifying.

excuse to you ?- Do you think I'm apologizing to you from something ? We speak before God and Christ -- We don't apologizing to you for anything!Concerning the Word of Christ ,It was God's Words we brought forth.We don't make apology for it. all things for your, edifying-- To make you stronger to bring His truth, we sacrifced to see that you were helped. That is a mark of a True man or women of God.

20 For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:

21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.

Paul is saying when I come I hope I can be sweet to you. I Don't apologize if I have to brake out the 2x4 if it continues so be it.

2 Corinthians 13

King James Version (KJV)

13 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

3rd time he was planing to visit. Don't take one mans words and run off with it. should agree with God's words

2 I told you before, and foretell you, as if I were present, the second time; and being absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned, and to all other, that, if I come again, I will not spare:

I will not spare he says -- I hope I can come humble , even thought I am humble in Christ. I will not spare you sins correction.



3 Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you.

Guess they accused him he was his own man and not Christian. Which - Christ is not week, but is mighty and power to you. If you suffer for Christ name sake. [/size]

Clearly Paul was a man of God and went the extra mile seems people today are the same as back then dont change.

 

[nathan3]

There was only one reason given for the buffeting, and that was for "the many Revelations" that Paul had received.

So I would say that it has everything to do with that, wouldn't you?

Thorns are associated with The Carnal mind, and goes all the way back to Adam.
And then seen on Christ's head on the Cross.

Because He took on that mind is no sign we won't have to, but through the Spirit are able to overcome it, the same as I'm sure Paul did. Remember it was also Paul who wrote about "Renewing the Mind" and how important it is. Who better to tell us about it than him?

Remember also, everywhere Paul preached he found resistance in the people, again because of the many Revelations of Christ. The Thorn in his flesh could have actually been through this venue as well, and not directly in him. Satan could have very well have worked through the people against Paul.

Just something to consider.

God Bless

The many Revelations , because of that. Your on target. After reading through that chapter with a trusted study ,The thorn had to do with that, I posted the scripture there; it says as much .

 

[know1]

What would Paul's thorn in the flesh that would be attribued to a messenger of Stan to buffet him?

2 Corinthians 12:6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me. 7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong. 11 I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.

Paul has mentioned infirmities as in plural and so, even though some christians scholars believe Paul was referring to his eyesight because of this below:

Galatians 6:11 Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand.

Poor eyesight would not be something that would keep believers from thinking highly than they ought to think of him, nor would it be something as considered as a messenger of Satan that buffets him.

It could be that Paul was hearing voices.

If a disciple in the word was known that he was "mentally ill", would that not keep believers from exalting him more than they ought to think? Certainly, we would not think less of him for having poor eyesight.

The flesh spoken of here does not have to do with the head or the mind or brain in the head.
G4561
σάρξ
sarx
1) flesh (the soft substance of the living body, which covers the bones and is permeated with blood) of both man and beasts
2) the body
2a) the body of a man
2b) used of natural or physical origin, generation or relationship
2b1) born of natural generation
2c) the sensuous nature of man, “the animal nature”
2c1) without any suggestion of depravity
2c2) the animal nature with cravings which incite to sin
2c3) the physical nature of man as subject to suffering
3) a living creature (because possessed of a body of flesh) whether man or beast
4) the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God.

I have a question for you. If God sent Jesus to destroy the works of the devil, why does He now approve the work of a messenger of the devil concerning Paul? This appears to me to be hypocritical of God.
1Jn_3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Jas_4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Joh 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Joh_16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Mat 7:9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
Mat 7:10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
2Co_1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luk 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

God did not tell Paul to grin and bare it but gave him the answer to his question. All power, all might, all strength, all healing and deliverance, all grace...etc. is in Christ Jesus.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2Co 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
God was telling Paul how to walk in the power of His Spirit.

 

[Red33]

This thorn or 'splinter' was 'the' messenger of Satan. One sent as an adversary to buffet and repeatedly strike and beat Paul over an over to bring him to a place of total weakness in his flesh. The flesh probably referred (1) to his body of flesh, (2) his stock of flesh concerning his past as a Pharisee with a zeal for the law and (3) the appetites and desires associated with the mind of flesh to be an accomplished person. It seemed to be a nagging pounding of the flesh that would not cease and it caused Paul to utterly depend on the grace of God as his sufficiency in this three-fold weakness of the flesh, to keep him from excessively exalting himself through the abundance of revelation given to him for the church and body of Christ. The Lord did not want him to exalt himself above the measure given to him as a man, to keep him meek and condescending, so that others would not be hindered from receiving the word that was given to him to preach as Christ's bond servant. God wanted to make sure that Paul lived as he preached even if it meant putting that thorn in his flesh. This is why he spoke often of death being worked in daily so that the resurrection life of Christ might work in others and that he might know Christ and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being made conformable to His death (Phil 3:10).

 

[Enow]

Sorry, even the suggestion of Paul being mentally ill borders on blasphemy. Can't you see how the enemies of the Gospel of Grace would run with that one?

For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. 2Tim 1:7

Not every person that is mentally ill is a believer in Jesus Christ.

Just because a person is mentally ill, that does not mean they are not a believer in Jesus Christ.

There are different ranges of mental illnesses, just as there are physical illnesses, but it is the hearing accusing voices is one such "illness" as labled by society that is being addressed of which I see it as befitting a messenger of Satan to buffet Paul of which Paul had prayed for it to depart.

What I am trying to say is about how society would lable a person as mentally ill for hearing voices that accuses them of which they would lable Paul in the same way, but they would be wrong.

Now I agree with what you say about a sound mind, but yet there is that spiritual warfare.

Ephesians 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. 11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

I see Paul testifying that in spite of what I perceive to be his thorn in the flesh, he still has a sound mind to not be led by those voices.

I see that as a hope for those that believe in Jesus Christ but hear accusing voices that they need not fear because Jesus is with them always so they will have a sound mind to go before that throne of grace for help in bringing every thought into captivity and for help to think on good things.

 

[Enow]

Romans 7:15-25
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

I wonder if we could gain more insight through these verses in Romans? Maybe the messenger of the enemy is the one that brings our "favorite" sin(s) to mind...

I wonder and say maybe because I don't really know but I think that's what it is.

That is an interesting point for consideration, but in context leading into the next chapter ( and do note, the original writings did not have numbered verses or numbered chapters ) I believe Paul was referring to his former state as a sinner. Verse 18 seems to set the precedent, ( and I do mean "seems" as it is a possibility for consideration ) that Paul was actually testifying to his former sinful state under the law when Christ was not in him yet. His declaration in verse 24 seems to state he cannot overcome sin at all as it has dominion over hs life: and so it goes into that hope of what he preached in Jesus Christ in verse 25.

At the beginning of the next chapter or we shall say.. as he goes on to the next point of which he was leading into preaching the hope in Christ, we see victory and no excuses for walking in the flesh now.

If we keep the two references in context, we can see Paul's point before that he was talking about his former sinful state under the law.

Romans 8:1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

That is why I see Paul was referring to his former sinful state under the law.

So even though there is that spiritual warfare in walking with the Lord, I tend to think that a messenger of Satan that was buffeting Paul was Paul hearing voices that accuses him.

So in that respect, Paul was not mentally ill, even though I do wonder if society and thus the church influenced by society would think of him as mentally ill that he would not be exalted higher than they ought to think.

How many believers today that preach Him and be sound in the word are being glossed over by fellow believers from exalting them too much because of them hearing voices that accuses them like Paul did?

 

[Enow]

I understand some of what Paul went through. Even now these revelations can exalt one beyond measure. Not by others as most met paul's message with disdain. No. Our thorns are infirmities. Reproaches and necessities. In persecutions and distresses. I see a little more everyday, and of a truth the simplest way I can describe it is that if the world really listens, there would be no poverty. All things would be common and all of mankind would be at peace now. But because that won't happen. Because by appearance I differ from no one else, being under the same elements, having need of food and shelter. Still getting sick with all the aches and pains associated with it. Getting banned simply for stating what I believe. These things I desire to be taken from me.

It's a balancing act and a struggle as I am buffeted by satan. I have a family too. These things make us weak to the eyes and a fool when preaching the truth of the gospel.

It is true that Paul has referenced those other external things, but I believe his prayer in reagrds to this thorn in the flesh being a messenger of Satan to buffet him was not the removal of those things that is expected for other believers to suffer as His disciples, but something personal that would single him out from being exalted highly by other believers: and not from his persecutors. His persecutors would hardly think highly of him than they ought to think, so it has to be the believers: those that would know because they have shared his burden in prayer.

Galatians 6:1Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. 2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. 3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.

Romans 15:30Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me;

James 5:13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms. 14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: 15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. 16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

I would think by practise and by scripture, Paul would make known this thorn in the flesh to be prayed for and thus it would keep other believers from exalting him higher than they ought to think.

 

[Enow]

[SIZE=+2] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=+2]2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+2]Paul is talking about himself, Paul is the man here. Since he is maybe boasting He can't put himself in the first person so he puts himself in the 3rd part.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+2]This event happened about 14 years ago. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+2]Paul was taken to the 3rd heaven. It doesn't prove anything really that I brag .But in as much as I am I'm going to brag about the highest forms. Not only do I understand the scriptures .I have been to Paradise . [/SIZE]

[SIZE=+2]2nd Peter chapter 3 Peter mentions one man after the 3rd heaven, Paul was who he mentions. Peter knew that Paul had made that journey 14 years before this writing. And there he says even the learned had trouble with understanding the teachings of Paul. Because Paul had something he really could boast about. Being taken to Paradise.[/SIZE]


[SIZE=+2]3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth )[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+2]He repeats . [/SIZE]


[SIZE=+2]4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+2]Paradise is the holding place of all souls.Awaiting Judgment. It is impossible or not to explain with words what he saw.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+2]5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.[/SIZE]

.

It was not Paul, but John the Apostle. John wrote the book of Revelations.

Verse 5 in your quote above proves that Paul was not talking about himself at all.

 

[Enow]

[SIZE=+2] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+2]7 And lest I should be exalted (big head ; lest he should be carried away with all those truth shared with him ) above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+2]God gave this thorn to him. To keep him grounded so he would not get a big head. 'Messenger' is angel . Angel of Satan. even minsters of Satan, and they call themselves Christian minsters, that teach themselves not Christ. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+2]God gave it him so he would not be exulted in his own mind or minds of other people. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=+2]8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+2]The thorn and the messenger , I asked God three times that it might depart from me. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=+2]9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+2]Christ rest on him ; is like a wall that protects from a buffeting from Satan. [/SIZE]
.

That would mean that Paul is no longer buffetted by the messenger of Satan and that he no longer has that thorn in the flesh, but it is written that He did not take it away from him.

Yes: Christ rest on him, but like any valley of the shadow of death that a believer may be in, Christ is still with them to walk them through. That is how I see Christ resting on Paul during this time of crisis when he was constantly afflicted with that thorn in the flesh.

 

[Enow]

Sorry, even the suggestion of Paul being mentally ill borders on blasphemy. Can't you see how the enemies of the Gospel of Grace would run with that one?

For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. 2Tim 1:7

Another note: I doubt it would be something that Paul would share with nonbelievers.

I testify that any believer that is gounded in the word in leaning on Him to be His disciple, should not be condemned nor thought less of than any other believer by other believers for hearing voices that accuses them daily.

I still say that this type of affliction would keep believers from exalting Paul higher than they ought to think. Anything else would hardly fit the bill of a messenger of Satan that buffets Paul in being personal enough to be considered his thorn in the flesh.