Was Paul "Mentally Ill"?

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Laodicea

Guest
#61
#61
Enow said:
#1) When I referred to the question >>Was Paul "Mentally Ill"?<< I was not trying to convey that Paul was mentally ill, but hearing voices that accuses him continuously.

I would say that society and believers today would call a person hearing voices as accusing him as mentally ill, but they woud be wrong.

#2) I disagree with you because I fail to see how failing eyesight would keep any believer from thinking highly of him than he ought to think. We don't towards anyone today, but would we give pause if that person we hold in high esteem hears voices in accusing him continuously? Would we fear what sciety would think of us if we did not hold it against him but yet not exalt him higher than we ought to think because it is God ministering through him and us as well?

So in spite of your sound rebuttal about speculation, just know that is how I see those that attributed Paul's thorn in the flesh as failing eyesight when obviously, there are other "infirmities" ( plural ) and not just his failing eyesight that can be referenced in scripture by.

But I agree with you that it is a speculation to attribute the messenger of Satan as buffetting Paul as hearing voices that accuses him, but I do not see anything else matching that description befitting an infirmity among other referenced infirmities that he was suffering from other than that.

And I still respect Paul as my fellow brother in Christ, but I do not exalt Paul because he had said plainly that it is God ministering through him for which he should not get any credit for.

1 Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase....21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are your's; 22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your's; 23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

One thing that should be considered as an important side note is not to deem a believer that is labled "mentally ill" as less than us which is what society tend to influence people to do, because whatever we do or not do to the least of the brethren, we are doing it to Jesus. Even I need the Lord's help to do right by Him.
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It looks like you disagree based on your own opinion. Also to say Paul heard voices is just speculation, there is no Biblical proof. You should deal in facts not speculation.
Luke 1:4 KJV
(4) That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.
 
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Enow

Banned
#62
Dec 21, 2012
2,901
39
0
#62
Disdame45 said:
I don't know if I would call Paul mentally ill or could even assume that he heard voices in his head. His letters to the various churches would indicate that he had a sound mind. Perhaps (and this is mere speculation) the messages that were thorns in his 'flesh' were thoughts or ideas that he could be exalted or should be put on some pedestal by others. That could have, in and of itself, been a very strong temptation, considering his conversion and the revelations he had. But God's grace was sufficient for him, even to the point that he suffered trials, persecutions, beatings, chains and eventually death. The tendency for Paul to boast is evident in his letters, so I think this was something he had to always deal with.
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I would not call Paul "mentally ill" either even though society would and could.

I understand your speculation, and it seems reasonable up to a point, but Paul was writing about a personal affliction as a thorn in his flesh that God would not remove in spite of his prayers and so I tend to think that the affliction was not the problem in others wating to exalt him, but that this thorn in the flesh would prevent them from doing so.

So I am discerning that this messenger of Satan that buffets him would be liken to hearing voices that accuses him daily. I just can't see that description as befitting any other infirmity other than something liken unto that which would give people that would exalt him pause and thus not thinking highly of him than they ought to think.

Paul certainly preached enough to keep believers from exalting him, but mayhap, to prevent false modesty, a humiliating affliction had to be given to Paul to prevent this.

1 Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase....21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are your's; 22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your's; 23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.
1 Corinthians 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
 
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Enow

Banned
#63
Dec 21, 2012
2,901
39
0
#63
Laodicea said:
It looks like you disagree based on your own opinion. Also to say Paul heard voices is just speculation, there is no Biblical proof. You should deal in facts not speculation.
Luke 1:4 KJV
(4) That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.
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Just as there is no Biblical proof that failing or poor eyesight was what Paul was talking about as being the messenger of Satan buffetting him.

And although I disagree with Paul being "mentally ill" as society would lable him for hearing voices that accuses him, still I believe he was hearing voices that accuses him even though there is no definitive proof other than it befits no other infirmity that would prevent believers from exalting him and thinking highly of him than they ought to think.

Be honest: would you think less of Paul if he was hearing voices that accuses him? Certainly you would not have a problem with him if he just had failing or poor eyesight, would you?

So the question is what thorn in the flesh would keep believers from exalting him or thinking highly of him than they ought to think?

I can come to no other conclusion which I believe serves as a hope for those believers rooted in the word & yet are afflicted daily in this manner. They can use Paul as an example & proof that Christ will help them through this life bearing that cross to keep the foot of pride away.
 
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Laodicea

Guest
#64
#64
Enow said:
Just as there is no Biblical proof that failing or poor eyesight was what Paul was talking about as being the messenger of Satan buffetting him.

And although I disagree with Paul being "mentally ill" as society would lable him for hearing voices that accuses him, still I believe he was hearing voices that accuses him even though there is no definitive proof other than it befits no other infirmity that would prevent believers from exalting him and thinking highly of him than they ought to think.

Be honest: would you think less of Paul if he was hearing voices that accuses him? Certainly you would not have a problem with him if he just had failing or poor eyesight, would you?

So the question is what thorn in the flesh would keep believers from exalting him or thinking highly of him than they ought to think?

I can come to no other conclusion which I believe serves as a hope for those believers rooted in the word & yet are afflicted daily in this manner. They can use Paul as an example & proof that Christ will help them through this life bearing that cross to keep the foot of pride away.
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I do not base what I believe on opinion rather what is written. It is clear from texts that he had trouble with his eyesight and it says in the Bible that people would have even plucked out there own eyes and given them to Paul.
Galatians 6:17 KJV
(17) From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus.

This tells us that he bears the marks which was his eyesight. It needs to be understood according to what Paul says not what we think. To Paul this caused distress which he prayed for but God said to him.
2 Corinthians 12:9-10 KJV
(9) And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
(10) Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Paul's infirmity was something seen not something unseen as verse 10 shows. It needs to be understood in terms of Paul's time and how he seen it.


 
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