Was Paul "Mentally Ill"?

[Enow]

The flesh spoken of here does not have to do with the head or the mind or brain in the head.
G4561
σάρξ
sarx
1) flesh (the soft substance of the living body, which covers the bones and is permeated with blood) of both man and beasts
2) the body
2a) the body of a man
2b) used of natural or physical origin, generation or relationship
2b1) born of natural generation
2c) the sensuous nature of man, “the animal nature”
2c1) without any suggestion of depravity
2c2) the animal nature with cravings which incite to sin
2c3) the physical nature of man as subject to suffering
3) a living creature (because possessed of a body of flesh) whether man or beast
4) the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God.

Interesting. Kind of like the text pneuma as it has a wide range of definition from a man's spirit, demons, Holy Spirit, vital principle, mindset, etc. and so the definition of the text is best given by how it is used in the verse.

I have a question for you. If God sent Jesus to destroy the works of the devil, why does He now approve the work of a messenger of the devil concerning Paul? This appears to me to be hypocritical of God.
1Jn_3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Would God keep the foot of pride away from Paul? Yes. Would God keep His followers from thinking highly than they ought to think of Paul? Yes. Then how?

Are there not sickness among the believers? Yes.

2 Timothy 4:19 Salute Prisca and Aquila, and the household of Onesiphorus. 20 Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.

Is not sickness a work of the devil? That's debatable since we are living in a sinfallen world where sickness & death dwells and thus not solely an act from the devil to implement even though he can & does, but only so far as God allows it.

Is there not mental sickness as well as physical sickness? Yes. Okay then.

But that was not the case with Paul because God permitted him to suffer a thorn in the flesh by allowing a messener of Satan to buffet him to keep the foot of pride away, especially other believers from idolizing Paul.

God did not tell Paul to grin and bare it but gave him the answer to his question. All power, all might, all strength, all healing and deliverance, all grace...etc. is in Christ Jesus.

God is not limited in ministry as if only through healthy people.

1 Corinthians 9: 22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2Co 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
God was telling Paul how to walk in the power of His Spirit.

I agree, but just as Christ is with us always to be our Good Shepherd to walk us through this valley of death, so can He walk us through any trial in life. That doesn't mean that valley of death will no longer be there nor that our trials will vanish into thin air.

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Below, Paul was referring to his affliction of suffering need, but verse 13 is applicable towards any affliction.

Philippians 4:10 But I rejoiced in the Lord greatly, that now at the last your care of me hath flourished again; wherein ye were also careful, but ye lacked opportunity. 11 Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content. 12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. 13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me. 14 Notwithstanding ye have well done, that ye did communicate with my affliction.

 

[Enow]

This thorn or 'splinter' was 'the' messenger of Satan. One sent as an adversary to buffet and repeatedly strike and beat Paul over an over to bring him to a place of total weakness in his flesh. The flesh probably referred (1) to his body of flesh, (2) his stock of flesh concerning his past as a Pharisee with a zeal for the law and (3) the appetites and desires associated with the mind of flesh to be an accomplished person. It seemed to be a nagging pounding of the flesh that would not cease and it caused Paul to utterly depend on the grace of God as his sufficiency in this three-fold weakness of the flesh, to keep him from excessively exalting himself through the abundance of revelation given to him for the church and body of Christ. The Lord did not want him to exalt himself above the measure given to him as a man, to keep him meek and condescending, so that others would not be hindered from receiving the word that was given to him to preach as Christ's bond servant. God wanted to make sure that Paul lived as he preached even if it meant putting that thorn in his flesh. This is why he spoke often of death being worked in daily so that the resurrection life of Christ might work in others and that he might know Christ and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being made conformable to His death (Phil 3:10).

That is a well thought out consideration, but there is one point of pause in this and that is how Paul seemingly refers to this thorn in the flesh as if it was something not suffered by every believer.

Surely it would be selfish to ask for the removal of that which other believers lean on Christ for in living the christian life and so I am tending to believe that such a dramatic description of his thorn in the flesh was something that would keep him from being exalted was an affliction not expected to be shared by others because of it being given due to his abundance in revelations.

That description being a messenger of Satan does seem to befit an affliction of hearing voices that accuses him daily. I cannot see any other affliction that God would permit as a thorn in the flesh that would not be normally suffered by others that would keep others from exalting Paul higher than they ought to think.

 

[Therapon]

What would Paul's thorn in the flesh that would be attribued to a messenger of Stan to buffet him?

2 Corinthians 12:6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me. 7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong. 11 I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.

Paul has mentioned infirmities as in plural and so, even though some christians scholars believe Paul was referring to his eyesight because of this below:

Galatians 6:11 Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand.

Poor eyesight would not be something that would keep believers from thinking highly than they ought to think of him, nor would it be something as considered as a messenger of Satan that buffets him.

It could be that Paul was hearing voices.

If a disciple in the word was known that he was "mentally ill", would that not keep believers from exalting him more than they ought to think? Certainly, we would not think less of him for having poor eyesight.

I'm sure this will be highly debateable, but I give this thread as a message of hope to those that believe but are buffetted by a messenger of Satan. Maybe God is using that as a means to put you in a position to save some by sharing your hope in Christ Jesus.

1 Corinthians 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

1 Peter 3:14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; 15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: 16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

1 Peter 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: 13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

1 Peter 5:9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. 10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you. 11 To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

The simplest answer is usually the correct one. What is a "messenger" in the NT? In Gr., it is "aggelos," pronounced ang`el-os or angel. So Paul was continually being attacked by a fallen angel, an evil spirit, as are we all if we try to walk in the Lord.

 

[Stephen63]

2 Corinthians 12:7-10 7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

I believe we have a situation where we cannot see the forest for the trees. The answer is in the surrounding Scripture. This is known as the CONTEXT.
1. my strength is made perfect in weakness - which means God's ability would overshadow Paul.
2. Verse 10 actually tells in general terms what his thorn in the flesh was. The apostle Paul went through more persecutions than all the other apostles.

Acts 14:19-20 And there came thither certain Jews from Antioch and Iconium, who persuaded the people, and, having stoned Paul, drew him out of the city, supposing he had been dead. 20 Howbeit, as the disciples stood round about him, he rose up, and came into the cityand the next day he departed with Barnabas to Derbe: .

This is where God said His grace would be sufficient. How else could Paul not only stand up and walk away from a stoning, and walked several miles into the next city the following day? Paul was beaten several times, stoned, dragged by horses, and many other things that are not even listed in Scripture. How can such a man survive such torture, not to mention keeping his sanity? Paul was physically, emotionally, and spiritually covered by God's grace for his ministry.

 

[Enow]

The simplest answer is usually the correct one. What is a "messenger" in the NT? In Gr., it is "aggelos," pronounced ang`el-os or angel. So Paul was continually being attacked by a fallen angel, an evil spirit, as are we all if we try to walk in the Lord.

Yes: but I reckon because Paul identified it as a thorn in the flesh and had prayed for it to be removed, that one would think it was a physical/mental condition for which he was afflicted of by that messenger.

 

[Enow]

2 Corinthians 12:7-10 7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

I believe we have a situation where we cannot see the forest for the trees. The answer is in the surrounding Scripture. This is known as the CONTEXT.
1. my strength is made perfect in weakness - which means God's ability would overshadow Paul.
2. Verse 10 actually tells in general terms what his thorn in the flesh was. The apostle Paul went through more persecutions than all the other apostles.

Acts 14:19-20 And there came thither certain Jews from Antioch and Iconium, who persuaded the people, and, having stoned Paul, drew him out of the city, supposing he had been dead. 20 Howbeit, as the disciples stood round about him, he rose up, and came into the cityand the next day he departed with Barnabas to Derbe: .

This is where God said His grace would be sufficient. How else could Paul not only stand up and walk away from a stoning, and walked several miles into the next city the following day? Paul was beaten several times, stoned, dragged by horses, and many other things that are not even listed in Scripture. How can such a man survive such torture, not to mention keeping his sanity? Paul was physically, emotionally, and spiritually covered by God's grace for his ministry.

#1 Keep in mind that Paul had to ask for this thorn to be removed and it was not taken from him so in spite of this unremoved thorn, Christ will help him through it.

#2 I believe Paul went on to other afflictions to share that truth that just as Christ helps him through those trials of life, Christ will help him bear this thorn in the flesh.

As for your reference in Acts: just as Paul can be stoned to death and was presumed dead and Christ had raised him up to be unaffected by it, so can Christ enable Paul to walk this valley of death fearing no evil... not even with having this ever present thorn in the flesh. The shadow of the valley of death will always be over us in this life, but Christ will help us walk us through it as He would with anyone suffering such a thorn in the flesh in the service of Him to keep the foot of pride away and from others idolizing him for what God was doing through Christ in him.

 

[crossnote]

I have the highest regard for Paul. He was terribly reviled,doubted and perssecuted in his time. We don't need to carry on that tradition.

 

[Enow]

For those believers that are labled by society as mentally ill:

1 John 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. 19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. 20For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. 22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Romans 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.....28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose......

1 Corinthians 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

1 Peter 3:15But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

Romans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Therapon]

Yes: but I reckon because Paul identified it as a thorn in the flesh and had prayed for it to be removed, that one would think it was a physical/mental condition for which he was afflicted of by that messenger.

I have worked with demonized people for about 35 years and have seen a host of physical illnesses that directly had a spiritual cause, the loss of peripheral vision being one of them. In those cases, when the spiritual problem was resolved the physical ailment usually disappeared. But Paul's case was different. God permitted an evil spirit to continue buffeting Paul with an ailment, lest he become prideful because of the excellence of the revelation given to him. Consequently, Paul's affliction in the flesh could easily been the result of continuing demonic oppression, in the same way that hives and shingles can be activated by stress.

 

[Laodicea]

Galatians 4:13 KJV
(13) Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first.
Galatians 6:11 KJV
(11) Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand.

Paul's had an infirmity of the flesh and put the two texts together it shows the infirmity was his eyesight.

 

[Enow]

I have worked with demonized people for about 35 years and have seen a host of physical illnesses that directly had a spiritual cause, the loss of peripheral vision being one of them. In those cases, when the spiritual problem was resolved the physical ailment usually disappeared. But Paul's case was different. God permitted an evil spirit to continue buffeting Paul with an ailment, lest he become prideful because of the excellence of the revelation given to him. Consequently, Paul's affliction in the flesh could easily been the result of continuing demonic oppression, in the same way that hives and shingles can be activated by stress.

Thank you for your contribution to the discussion. It is worth a consideration but again, one has to take pause in that because Paul's thorn in the flesh could not be an affliction that was typical of everyday sufferings by other people. I mean, how would he know that his loss of sight was due to a messenger of Satan?

If believers in Jesus Christ today are wearing glasses to see better, had operations to correct their visions, and yet their poor eyesight has nothing to do with demonic oppression, then one has to wonder if your consideration has merit enough in that regard for Paul to get an inclination that his loss of eyesight would lead him to discern demonic possession/oppression to lead us to that same conclusion.

I am still leaning towards Paul hearing voices that accuses him as it would be an affliction not normally shared by other believers in everyday life so as to not exalt Paul higher than they ought to think.

If we consider that there were other believers with poor eyesight as we know and see today, then if we are not seeing it as a result of demonic possession as I am sure you would testify that not every physical ailment is a direct result of demonic possession or oppression, then I would fail to see how failing eyesight would keep other believers, since some of them have failing eysights as well, from still exalting Paul higher than they ought to think anyway.

We see many believers today that are rooted in the word and I would say that poor eyesight would not keep anyone from exalting that believer higher than they ought to think because of those abundance of revelations& edification: but hearing voices that accuse him continually would be a reason not exalt him higher than they ought to think.

Anyway: thanks for your contribution to the discussion. It made me stop & discern with His help, but I am still led to believe that thorn was hearing voices that accuses.

 

[crossnote]

What verse says that Paul heard voices? Is there not speculation involved in this inquiry?
I would rather go the route that Paul laid out than try to psychoanalyze or demonize Paul and it is this...
And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
(1Co 2:1-5)

I suppose some will speculate that his 'weakness', 'fear' and 'much trembling' is also a sign of demon activity. sheesh.

 

[Therapon]

Thank you for your contribution to the discussion. It is worth a consideration but again, one has to take pause in that because Paul's thorn in the flesh could not be an affliction that was typical of everyday sufferings by other people. I mean, how would he know that his loss of sight was due to a messenger of Satan?

LOL, because he said so . . . 2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger (aggelos = messenger, usually translated angel) of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Furthermore, Paul knew how to hear the Holy Spirit, something I am still learning to do. But hey, probably shouldn't have butted in, so peace, and I'm outta here <smile>. Just thought the subject interesting.

 

[loveme1]

Mark 3

But Jesus withdrew himself with his disciples to the sea: and a great multitude from Galilee followed him, and from Judaea, 8And from Jerusalem, and from Idumaea, and from beyond Jordan; and they about Tyre and Sidon, a great multitude, when they had heard what great things he did, came unto him. 9And he spake to his disciples, that a small ship should wait on him because of the multitude, lest they should throng him. 10For he had healed many; insomuch that they pressed upon him for to touch him, as many as had plagues. 11And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God. 12And he straitly charged them that they should not make him known


13And he goeth up into a mountain, and calleth unto him whom he would: and they came unto him. 14And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach, 15And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils: 16And Simon he surnamed Peter; 17And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he surnamed them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder: 18And Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Canaanite, 19And Judas Iscariot, which also betrayed him: and they went into an house.

20And the multitude cometh together again, so that they could not so much as eat bread. 21And when his friends heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself. 22And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. 23And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? 24And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. 27No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.

an abstract of the worlds view of someone who is mentally ill:

Positive Symptoms: The Psychotic Dimension

Religious delusions involve patients' belief that they have a special relationship with God normally reserved for bible or mythic figures, or with the spiritual world. Patients may state that they are the incarnation of the archangel Michael, for instance. They may complain of demon possession, of being able to speak to God directly and hear replies, or to be in communication with a spirit from another dimension. Patients may believe that they are God, or God's chosen messenger.

 

[Stephen63]

#1 Keep in mind that Paul had to ask for this thorn to be removed and it was not taken from him so in spite of this unremoved thorn, Christ will help him through it.

#2 I believe Paul went on to other afflictions to share that truth that just as Christ helps him through those trials of life, Christ will help him bear this thorn in the flesh.

As for your reference in Acts: just as Paul can be stoned to death and was presumed dead and Christ had raised him up to be unaffected by it, so can Christ enable Paul to walk this valley of death fearing no evil... not even with having this ever present thorn in the flesh. The shadow of the valley of death will always be over us in this life, but Christ will help us walk us through it as He would with anyone suffering such a thorn in the flesh in the service of Him to keep the foot of pride away and from others idolizing him for what God was doing through Christ in him.

I would say that would be presuming too much to say Paul was "unaffected" by it

 

[Enow]

Galatians 4:13 KJV
(13) Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first.
Galatians 6:11 KJV
(11) Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand.

Paul's had an infirmity of the flesh and put the two texts together it shows the infirmity was his eyesight.

Thank you for your contribution, however in respect to that consideration, how can poor eyesight be considered as a messenger of Satan that buffets Paul? I fail to see that as a connection to the references that you have provided here.

Don't get me wrong. I do acknowledge that poor eyesight was one of the infirmities that Paul was suffering from, but not the only one and hardky befitting the description of a messenger of Satan that buffets him that Paul would pray that it would be removed, but was not so that other believers would not think highly of him than they ought to think because of the abundance of revelations that Paul was having.

Today, no one would think less of a famous preacher for having poor eyesight, but they would not exalt him so highly if he was suffering from hearing voices that accuses him daily.

Just a thought for consideration and discernment with His help on how we should not think less of someone if God is using him to share the word of edification or reproof just because society lables him as "mentally ill" when in actuality, he may just be buffeted by a messenger of Satan to keep others from exalting him too highly that they forget Who is really ministering to them.

1 Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

 

[Stephen63]

Galatians 4:13 KJV
(13) Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first.
Galatians 6:11 KJV
(11) Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand.

Paul's had an infirmity of the flesh and put the two texts together it shows the infirmity was his eyesight.

(Holman Bible Dictionary) INFIRMITY Disease, suffering, or sorrow. The KJV often used infirmity where modern translations have another term (e.g., weakness, diseases, sickness, menstruation, grief). Matthew saw in Jesus healings the fulfillment of the servant of the Lord who took our diseases (Matt. 8:17; Isa. 53:4). Romans 15:1 calls upon the strong (in conscience) to bear with the weaknesses (KJV infirmity) of those without strength.

Galatians 6:17 17 From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus.

It was something bigger than that....... WAY bigger than that.

 

[Enow]

What verse says that Paul heard voices? Is there not speculation involved in this inquiry?

What physical affliction would be befitting as a messenger of Satan that buffets Paul as a thorn in his flesh that he had asked the Lord to remove, but He did not?

I would rather go the route that Paul laid out than try to psychoanalyze or demonize Paul and it is this...

And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
(1Co 2:1-5)

I suppose some will speculate that his 'weakness', 'fear' and 'much trembling' is also a sign of demon activity. sheesh.

That would be in line with why I do not believe Paul's thorn in the flesh was his failing eyesight or any other normal physcial afflcition that is shared by others because that would not stop them from thinking highly than they ought to think of Paul for having all of those abundance of revelations, but hearing voices that accuses him would.

 

[Enow]

LOL, because he said so . . . 2Co 12:7And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger (aggelos = messenger, usually translated angel) of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Furthermore, Paul knew how to hear the Holy Spirit, something I am still learning to do. But hey, probably shouldn't have butted in, so peace, and I'm outta here <smile>. Just thought the subject interesting.

But that is the problem. By your reference, Paul did not identify the thorn in the flesh as failing eyesight. and since failing eyesight hardly buffets him and it fails to meet as a messenger of Satan, then I am liable to believe he was hearing voices that accuses him continuously.

 

[Stephen63]

What physical affliction would be befitting as a messenger of Satan that buffets Paul as a thorn in his flesh that he had asked the Lord to remove, but He did not?



That would be in line with why I do not believe Paul's thorn in the flesh was his failing eyesight or any other normal physcial afflcition that is shared by others because that would not stop them from thinking highly than they ought to think of Paul for having all of those abundance of revelations, but hearing voices that accuses him would.

I think we ought to consider what's in the scriptures about him before speculating...... just sayin'.....