when will the rapture happen

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CRC

Guest
Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (1981, Vol. 1, pp. 208, 209) states: “PAROUSIA . . . denotes both an arrival and a consequent presence with. For instance, in a papyrus letter [written in Greek] a lady speaks of the necessity of her parousia in a place in order to attend to matters relating to her property there. . . . When used of the return of Christ, at the Rapture of the Church, it signifies, not merely His momentary coming for His saints, but His presence with them from that moment until His revelation and manifestation to the world.” Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon (revised by H. Jones, Oxford, 1968, p. 1343) shows that pa·rou·si′a is used at times in secular Greek literature to refer to the “visit of a royal or official personage.”
Secular Greek writings are, of course, helpful in determining the sense of this Greek term. However, even more effective is the use given the word in the Bible itself. At Philippians 2:12, for example, Paul speaks of the Philippian Christians as obeying “not during my presence [pa·rou·si′ai] only, but now much more readily during my absence [a·pou·si′ai].” So, too, at 2 Corinthians 10:10, 11, after referring to those who said that “his letters are weighty and forceful, but his presence [pa·rou·si′a] in person is weak and his speech contemptible,” Paul adds, “Let such a man take this into account, that what we are in our word by letters when absent [a·pon′tes], such we shall also be in action when present [pa·ron′tes].” (Compare also Php 1:24-27.) Thus, the contrast is between presence and absence, not between an arrival (or coming) and departure.
 
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overcomer2

Guest
I believe the rapture will happen after tribulation. After the last trump.

Present time: now

Tribulation: 31/2 years long ,anti-christ revealed, 2 witnesses show up, mark of the beast

Great Tribulation(last 45 days of trib)

Rapture/meet the Lord in air (why? so only with our eyes will we see the destruction of the wicked.)
********He is going to destroy wicked with brightness of his coming. Earth will be cleansed of wicked.

1000year reign with Christ
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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Please see this post.
I saw your post, so you disagree with my interpretation of the 144,000 not being literal virgins but spiritual virgins? You think the 144,000 then are a bunch of innocent male children who haven't slept with a woman, or perhaps older fat dudes who couldn't get a woman if they tried? Or perhaps they are priests who went into the monastery at a young age? Or maybe they are just really nerdy computer geeks (no offense)? Or lastly, perhaps they are very godly young men who don't believe in premarital sex? If that is the qualifier, then pre-tribbers really have a big problem because they should have been raptured and shouldn't be here before the 1st trumpet sounds.

GRA, I respect you and I know you are an intelligent guy but if you take everything literally in Revelation, you will NEVER sort it out. Conventional wisdom will not work here. If conventional wisdom worked on prophesy you would have sorted it all out by now. I was in the same boat until recently when a light went off. I'm sure you aren't looking at the Scarlet Woman sitting on a beast as a literal scarlet woman righting a monster, are you? Do you think MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH is the Head Madam of all cheap cat houses of earth?

The Beasts, and Mystery Babylon are part of the New World Order which includes a one world government, one financial system, one religion and one educational system. This is what the first 4 trumpets represent. Therefore if "worshiping" a "HARLOT" is the central theme of Revelation why is it so difficult for you to see that the 144,000 are being contrasted by calling them "virgins?" They are the ones not fooled, who don't play ball in this NEW ONE WORLD SYSTEM.

Since the 144K are spiritual virgins and not a bunch of nerdy, dorky, zitty kids, then it is clear when Jesus was saying "Woe to the pregnant and nursing" that He was using the same symbolism. Please let me know if you can see this or not? If you can, you will be taking a huge step forward to solving this great puzzle.
 
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PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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So Jesus comes back after the great tribulation. So what we have to watch for are signs of the rise of the antichrist and signs that the great tribulation is almost upon us. Once we're in the great tribulation we can start watching for Jesus' return.

For those who quote the verse, "we are not appointed to wrath", you're right. We are not appointed to wrath. But the great tribulation is not the wrath of God. The great tribulation is when the church is being persecuted by the antichrist who is possessed by the devil. The wrath of God is when God pours out His wrath upon the wicked, which does happen after the great tribulation and after Jesus comes back to rapture and resurrect His children.

If we're going to be raptured out of this world before the great tribulation then why does Jesus tell us, His children, to flee into the wilderness to hide out from the antichrist during the great tribulation. And in Revelations it says:

12:6 And the woman (the church) fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

There's only one group of people in the entire world who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus and that's born again Christians. so if the Christians are raptured out before the great tribulation, who are all these people who are being persecuted by the devil during the great tribulation. The answer is of course that Christians are going to be going through the great tribulation and that Jesus' second coming is after the great tribulation.

You have most of it right, except the GREAT TRIBULATION is the deception of antichrist (BEAST/SATAN) who the whole world will be tempted or tested, See Rev 3:10. During this temptation or test, many will be deceived and 1/3 of the world which will be mostly Christian, are killed in what will be called the Rapture. The deceived Christians are the Great Multitude seen in Rev 7. With most of the world's Christians out of the way, the rest of the world believes and worships the False One. God's Bowls of wrath are poured out on this ONE WORLD SYSTEM and Satan and his forces, just prior to Christ's return. The only believers left are the remnant.
 
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overcomer2

Guest
I believe the Great Trib is the last 45 days spoken in Daniel 12:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
 
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GRA

Guest
I saw your post, so you disagree with my interpretation of the 144,000 not being literal virgins but spiritual virgins? You think the 144,000 then are a bunch of innocent male children who haven't slept with a woman, or perhaps older fat dudes who couldn't get a woman if they tried? Or perhaps they are priests who went into the monastery at a young age? Or maybe they are just really nerdy computer geeks (no offense)? Or lastly, perhaps they are very godly young men who don't believe in premarital sex? If that is the qualifier, then pre-tribbers really have a big problem because they should have been raptured and shouldn't be here before the 1st trumpet sounds.

GRA, I respect you and I know you are an intelligent guy but if you take everything literally in Revelation, you will NEVER sort it out. Conventional wisdom will not work here. If conventional wisdom worked on prophesy you would have sorted it all out by now. I was in the same boat until recently when a light went off. I'm sure you aren't looking at the Scarlet Woman sitting on a beast as a literal scarlet woman righting a monster, are you? Do you think MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH is the Head Madam of all cheap cat houses of earth?

The Beasts, and Mystery Babylon are part of the New World Order which includes a one world government, one financial system, one religion and one educational system. This is what the first 4 trumpets represent. Therefore if "worshiping" a "HARLOT" is the central theme of Revelation why is it so difficult for you to see that the 144,000 are being contrasted by calling them "virgins?" They are the ones not fooled, who don't play ball in this NEW ONE WORLD SYSTEM.

Since the 144K are spiritual virgins and not a bunch of nerdy, dorky, zitty kids, then it is clear when Jesus was saying "Woe to the pregnant and nursing" that He was using the same symbolism. Please let me know if you can see this or not? If you can, you will be taking a huge step forward to solving this great puzzle.
Please see this post.
 
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freakyforGOD

Guest
no one knws but GOD know when the rapture will happen
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
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Revelation 20:4, "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them. And I saw the souls of those who were beheaded for their witness of Yahshua and for the word of Yahweh and who had not worshiped the beast, nor his likeness, neither had received his mark in their foreheads nor upon their hands; and they lived and reigned with the Messiah a thousand years--"

beheaded for their witness of Yahshua

who had not worshiped the beast...neither had received his mark in their foreheads

post tribulation, resurrection at Yahshua's return.

1 Corinthians 15:50-54, "Now I say this brothers: that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Yahweh; neither does corruption inherit incorruption.Behold, I show you a secret truth: we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed--In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible will have put on incorruption, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will be brought to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory."

Mattithyah 24:29-31, "Immediately, but after the tribulation of those days will the sun be darkened, and the moon will not give her light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven; and then will all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His malakim with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will
gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of earth to the other."
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
I believe the Great Trib is the last 45 days spoken in Daniel 12:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
close.

and fulfilled. a long, long time ago.
Daniel 12 is fulfilled.
 
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doulos

Guest
Foxe's Book of Martyrs historically records the murder of 11 of the 12 diciples and the beheading of the apostle Shaul (Paul).

If it happened to them, it can surely happen to anyone of us.
I agree if believers throughout history have suffered tribulation then we shall also have to suffer tribulation. It is sad to see so many confuse the tribulation which occurs before the second coming with the wrath of God which is poured out at the last trump when the nonbelievers discover the lake of fire is real!
If you like Foxe’s Book of Martyrs you might also like Martyr’s Mirror by Thielman van Braght It is a fascinating book about Seventeen Centuries of Christian Martyrdom From the Time of Christ to about 1660AD

Read it HERE <click

Just my opinion but I don’t see how any one could read that book and still believe that Christians in the end times are special and are supposedly raptured out of this world to escape tribulation.
 
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doulos

Guest
You have most of it right, except the GREAT TRIBULATION is the deception of antichrist (BEAST/SATAN) ..........
Rev 13:1-2 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

As the above verses demonstrate the dragon (satan) is not the same entity as the beast(kingdom). The unchanging God/Word tells us beasts in prophecy are kingdoms And history proves God's word true Daniel's lion was Babylon, the bear was Medo-Persia and the leopard was Greece.
Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Can you show us where the unchamging God/Word changed the definition of a beast to satan or antichrist? If not then if a beast was a kingdom in Daniel then a beast will still be a kingdom in Revelation.

Concerning the rest of your post there is no point discussing guess work theology. After all if one starts with a false assumption and then builds on that false assumption it’s just a matter of time until the whole house of cards falls down!
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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Rev 13:1-2 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

As the above verses demonstrate the dragon (satan) is not the same entity as the beast(kingdom). The unchanging God/Word tells us beasts in prophecy are kingdoms And history proves God's word true Daniel's lion was Babylon, the bear was Medo-Persia and the leopard was Greece.
Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Can you show us where the unchamging God/Word changed the definition of a beast to satan or antichrist? If not then if a beast was a kingdom in Daniel then a beast will still be a kingdom in Revelation.

Concerning the rest of your post there is no point discussing guess work theology. After all if one starts with a false assumption and then builds on that false assumption it’s just a matter of time until the whole house of cards falls down!
Sure, you are talking about the wrong beast. Check out 2 Thes 2:

for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

The only being that has already been sentenced to perdition is Satan, see John 17:12.

Or you can just check out Rev 12 as it is pretty clear there:

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Satan can take many forms. Does it matter what the image that will be worshiped is if Satan is the one behind it. I know the word, "Beast" is often symbolic of a nation or kingdom. The first Beast from the Sea is the ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT. "Sea" represents people, the masses. We are given that symbolism later in Revelation.

The second Beast is Satan himself, in whatever form he takes. It's pretty clear and the imagery is certainly that of the Antichrist even through it isn't called antichrist.

11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon. 12 And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men.

Do I have to explain the imagery to you of the phrase, "like a lamb and spoke like a dragon" or do you have it now?

I'm not sure what you are calling guess work theology? Perhaps you can elaborate?
 
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PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
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close.

and fulfilled. a long, long time ago.
Daniel 12 is fulfilled.
REALLY?? Daniel 12 is fulfilled?? By who, that little tin man Titus? Titus created all the fuss, the tribulation the likes the world will never see again? You mean we can all go home now? There is nothing left to discuss?
 
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doulos

Guest
Sure, you are talking about the wrong beast. Check out 2 Thes 2:

for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.


The only being that has already been sentenced to perdition is Satan, see John 17:12.

Or you can just check out Rev 12 as it is pretty clear there:

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Satan can take many forms. Does it matter what the image that will be worshiped is if Satan is the one behind it. I know the word, "Beast" is often symbolic of a nation or kingdom. The first Beast from the Sea is the ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT. "Sea" represents people, the masses. We are given that symbolism later in Revelation.

The second Beast is Satan himself, in whatever form he takes. It's pretty clear and the imagery is certainly that of the Antichrist even through it isn't called antichrist.

11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon. 12 And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men.

Do I have to explain the imagery to you of the phrase, "like a lamb and spoke like a dragon" or do you have it now?

I'm not sure what you are calling guess work theology? Perhaps you can elaborate?
2Th 2:3-4 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Nothing in 2Th says the man of sin is a beast. If you want to understand the man of sin look in the temple of God (1Cor3:16-17, 2Cor6:16 or Eph2:19-21). You won’t find him in some man made building the Jews may or may not build even if they falsely call it the true temple of God. Why? Because God does not dwell in buildings made with hands.(Acts7:48 and Acts17:24) For a Scripturally sound hermenuetic study of Scripture explaining the man of sin please click HERE <click

In the figurative language of prophecy beasts are kingdoms. Daniel tells us beasts are kingdom, and history proves God’s word true. Danel’s lion was Babylon, the bear Medo-Persia, and the leopard was Greece.

Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Can you show us where the unchanging God/Word changed the definition of a beast from a kingdom to antichrist, satan or the man of sin? If not then if a beast was a kingdom in Daniel it will still be a kingdom in Revelation. Both the composite leopard bear and lion beast and the two horned beast are kingdoms.

Guess work theology is building doctrines in the absence of sound hermenutic principles. Your post provides a perfect example of guess work theology. What Scriptural justification do you have to change the definition our unchanging God/Word gave us that a beast is a kingdom, to the man of sin or “the Antichrist”? Can you show us where Scripture says the man of sin is one of the beasts in Rev? No you can’t, the very best you can do is show why you make this false assumption. Scripture tells us;
1Th_5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good
False assumptions that directly contradict what God’s word tells us does not prove a thing, so why do you hold fast to the doctrine you espouse?

In addition to the fallacies I’ve already demonstrated in your post, your assumption that John17:12 demonstrates that satan is the only one sentenced to perdition is in error also. John 17:12 is talking about Judas being lost not satan being sentenced to perdition. Did Christ lose satan or Judas? Wasn't satan lost long before the last supper?
Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled
This verse is talking about Judas being lost, not satan being sentenced to perdition.. Why was Judas lost?
Joh 13:26-27 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
 
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overcomer2

Guest
I believe that Rev: 13:11 means this as I've been taught:
And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, (why like a lamb, because a lamb represents religion, this is a religious man, I believe the pope, he spake as a dragon (having an antichrist agenda)
13:13 .....he does great wonders....fire come (bombs and warheads) down from heaven. I'm not sure how educated all are on the protocol of the Pope but all in his presence must bow and kiss his ring, there is so much more. He is behind war and the making of war all over the Earth. You must wear black in the presence of the pope.
 
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GRA

Guest
Has anyone noticed that hope36523 has not posted in the thread since the initial post on August 29th, 2013 ?

"Some people know how to 'stir the pot' - don't they...???" ;)

:)
 
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doulos

Guest
I believe that Rev: 13:11 means this as I've been taught:
And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, (why like a lamb, because a lamb represents religion, this is a religious man, I believe the pope, he spake as a dragon (having an antichrist agenda)
13:13 .....he does great wonders....fire come (bombs and warheads) down from heaven. I'm not sure how educated all are on the protocol of the Pope but all in his presence must bow and kiss his ring, there is so much more. He is behind war and the making of war all over the Earth. You must wear black in the presence of the pope.
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Does Scripture tell us to believe what we have been taught or study to shew ourselves approved?
1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
Can the Scripturally bankrupt Catholic bashing view you espouse be proven from Scripture or is it a false doctrine that contradicts Scripture? It is a false doctrine, the two horned beast is a kingdom not a man.
In the figurative language of prophecy beasts are kingdoms. Daniel tells us beasts are kingdom, and history proves God’s word true. Danel’s lion was Babylon, the bear Medo-Persia, and the leopard was Greece.

Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Can you show us where the unchanging God/Word changed the definition of a beast from a kingdom to the pope? If not then wouldn’t we be better served to use the definition our unchanging God/Word provides?