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The Great Tribulation, the trumpet events, and the Wrath of God are three separable things - from a time-frame point of view.
The Great Tribulation is not 'wrath' from God -- 'wrath' from Satan, perhaps...
The statement from Revelation 6:16-17 is made from a post-Second-Coming-of-Christ point of view.
From the descriptions of the vials and of the trumpet events, I believe that we can correctly view each of them as an ordered sequence of events. With the seals, it is a bit different. Each seal may be considered as a sort of "viewport" into a particular set of events contained within a particular time-frame. The time-frame of seal #5 is quite short. The time-frame for each of the first four seals is much longer - ranging even into the hundreds of years... And, there are overlaps - of the time-frames of the seals - and between the time-frames of the seals and other recorded events - such as the trumpet events and the vials...
( EDIT: The beginning points of the seals are time-order-sequenced. )
See my Order of Events chart.
Pay close attention to the details...
Do you see the connection between the two witnesses and the trumpet events? ---------- and the bottomless pit?
Feel free to ask me if you do not see why something is in a particular place on the chart. But, please ask in the Order of Events thread --- so as to keep each of the threads "on track"...
The Great Tribulation is not 'wrath' from God -- 'wrath' from Satan, perhaps...
The statement from Revelation 6:16-17 is made from a post-Second-Coming-of-Christ point of view.
From the descriptions of the vials and of the trumpet events, I believe that we can correctly view each of them as an ordered sequence of events. With the seals, it is a bit different. Each seal may be considered as a sort of "viewport" into a particular set of events contained within a particular time-frame. The time-frame of seal #5 is quite short. The time-frame for each of the first four seals is much longer - ranging even into the hundreds of years... And, there are overlaps - of the time-frames of the seals - and between the time-frames of the seals and other recorded events - such as the trumpet events and the vials...
( EDIT: The beginning points of the seals are time-order-sequenced. )
See my Order of Events chart.
Pay close attention to the details...
Do you see the connection between the two witnesses and the trumpet events? ---------- and the bottomless pit?
Feel free to ask me if you do not see why something is in a particular place on the chart. But, please ask in the Order of Events thread --- so as to keep each of the threads "on track"...
I enjoy your prospective very much. I will study on this to see if the things you say have merit. However, I think just about everyone is wrong about the timing of the so called Rapture. I now think the Rapture, or gathering, isn't until after the Millennium. But before i speak too much about it, I want to review everything concerning the Rapture to see if this holds up. As a former nuclear engineer, I want to treat this like a math problem.
The Great Tribulation, the trumpet events, and the Wrath of God are three separable things - from a time-frame point of view.
The Great Tribulation is not 'wrath' from God -- 'wrath' from Satan, perhaps...
The statement from Revelation 6:16-17 is made from a post-Second-Coming-of-Christ point of view.
From the descriptions of the vials and of the trumpet events, I believe that we can correctly view each of them as an ordered sequence of events. With the seals, it is a bit different. Each seal may be considered as a sort of "viewport" into a particular set of events contained within a particular time-frame. The time-frame of seal #5 is quite short. The time-frame for each of the first four seals is much longer - ranging even into the hundreds of years... And, there are overlaps - of the time-frames of the seals - and between the time-frames of the seals and other recorded events - such as the trumpet events and the vials...
( EDIT: The beginning points of the seals are time-order-sequenced. )
See my Order of Events chart.
Pay close attention to the details...
Do you see the connection between the two witnesses and the trumpet events? ---------- and the bottomless pit?
Feel free to ask me if you do not see why something is in a particular place on the chart. But, please ask in the Order of Events thread --- so as to keep each of the threads "on track"...
The Great Tribulation is not 'wrath' from God -- 'wrath' from Satan, perhaps...
The statement from Revelation 6:16-17 is made from a post-Second-Coming-of-Christ point of view.
From the descriptions of the vials and of the trumpet events, I believe that we can correctly view each of them as an ordered sequence of events. With the seals, it is a bit different. Each seal may be considered as a sort of "viewport" into a particular set of events contained within a particular time-frame. The time-frame of seal #5 is quite short. The time-frame for each of the first four seals is much longer - ranging even into the hundreds of years... And, there are overlaps - of the time-frames of the seals - and between the time-frames of the seals and other recorded events - such as the trumpet events and the vials...
( EDIT: The beginning points of the seals are time-order-sequenced. )
See my Order of Events chart.
Pay close attention to the details...
Do you see the connection between the two witnesses and the trumpet events? ---------- and the bottomless pit?
Feel free to ask me if you do not see why something is in a particular place on the chart. But, please ask in the Order of Events thread --- so as to keep each of the threads "on track"...
I enjoy your prospective very much. I will study on this to see if the things you say have merit. However, I think just about everyone is wrong about the timing of the so called Rapture. I now think the Rapture, or gathering, isn't until after the Millennium. But before i speak too much about it, I want to review everything concerning the Rapture to see if this holds up. As a former nuclear engineer, I want to treat this like a math problem.
No, just hit the post key twice thinking I didn't do it before.
I've been reading Rev 20. It seems possible that only the martyred saints reign with Christ the 1,000 years while the others have to wait until the 1,000 years are up. There seems to be some support for this from Paul in various places. I need to study it more. But this notion of a partial rapture really helps the rest of Revelation and prophetic books of the OT work better.
20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
I've been reading Rev 20. It seems possible that only the martyred saints reign with Christ the 1,000 years while the others have to wait until the 1,000 years are up. There seems to be some support for this from Paul in various places. I need to study it more. But this notion of a partial rapture really helps the rest of Revelation and prophetic books of the OT work better.
20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Like, where...?
Not saying I'm all in on this idea yet. But my study Bible suggests this as a possibility based on the scripture I quoted. Back to Rev 20.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
It seems clear that John is saying that those killed for Christ during the Tribulation will receive a special blessing. This blessing appears to be that the martyred get to have a part in the first resurrection AND reign 1,000 years (the rest of the saints appear to remain asleep until after the 1,000 years are over). I NEVER SAW THIS BEFORE 3 DAYS AGO!! Doesn't using the phrase "first resurrection" sound like there will be a second resurrection? That is how it seems to me.
As for Paul possibly teaching about this. Here is the passage.
Philippians 3
10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
I used to always see this as just Paul being humble stating he is working towards the goal of salvation. But clearly, Paul is saved and knows this. So if we tie Paul's statement about having fellowship of (Christ's) suffering, being conformed to (Christ's) death with the prize... maybe this means those who die as Christ did receive a higher prize and maybe that prize is an early resurrection and 1,000 reign.
The idea that there is a 2nd Rapture at the end of the Millennium is supported by John 6 in various places where Jesus talks about rising up the dead "at the last day." I always thought the Last Day and Day of the Lord were synonymous but now I'm not so sure. The Last Day is probably the Last Day of the Millennium and the end of the old world which will pass away.
I know you are saying that the trumpets and bowls go together, and I agree they do seem very related, and you suggest they are part of the 6th seal. That solution bothers me to be honest. I think the seals happen then are followed by the trumpets then followed by the bowls. Rev 15:1 supports this as the bowls are referred to as "the seven last plagues." Also, unless there is scripture to back you up, we must assume the classic reading of the Word.
I now think that the martyred are "Raptured" at the 7th Trump and join the martyred saints of the 5th seal in heaven. Christ then descends all the way to the Mt. of Olives and splits the mountain allowing those believing Jews (the 1/3 not killed) to flee through the newly created valley to Azal, see Zech 14.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. 5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.
If the Lord is Rapturing all the believers, why then are the believing Jews not raptured too and instead fleeing?
G
What? When / Where did I say that...??? What exactly do you mean by 'go together'?
What I said was:
The trumpet events and the Wrath of God ( 'vials' ) do not 'go together' any more than the fact that they are both 'events' in the End Times Scenario. In fact - the trumpet events occur before the Second Coming of Christ ( the moment in time when he appears ) - and the Wrath of God happens after...
The suggestion about them being included in the "event viewport" of seal #6 is answered by the placement of the Revelation 6 verses in my Order of Events chart on the fourth row from the top...
In general, I believe this to be true. The trumpet events are definitely separate from the Wrath of God ( 'vials' ). However, as I said before, it is a bit different with the seals... ( #6 and #7 in particular ) There are overlaps - from an 'event' point of view.
Do you believe that Revelation 8:1 constitutes the entirety of the seventh seal? Or, how many verses / chapters after that are included also?
What I said was:
The trumpet events and the Wrath of God ( 'vials' ) do not 'go together' any more than the fact that they are both 'events' in the End Times Scenario. In fact - the trumpet events occur before the Second Coming of Christ ( the moment in time when he appears ) - and the Wrath of God happens after...
The suggestion about them being included in the "event viewport" of seal #6 is answered by the placement of the Revelation 6 verses in my Order of Events chart on the fourth row from the top...
In general, I believe this to be true. The trumpet events are definitely separate from the Wrath of God ( 'vials' ). However, as I said before, it is a bit different with the seals... ( #6 and #7 in particular ) There are overlaps - from an 'event' point of view.
Do you believe that Revelation 8:1 constitutes the entirety of the seventh seal? Or, how many verses / chapters after that are included also?
G
I have pondered it as well... Consider the following:
~ The "grammar of the language" allows for "unmentioned" people in the 'scene'. The phrase "and [I saw] the souls of them..." does not mean that they were the only ones who were present or could be seen in the 'scene' - only that they were seen and mentioned. Others could have been there also...
~ This description is speaking strictly of those who were beheaded for not accepting the mark of the beast - which would actually not include the apostles themselves - nor "the souls under the alter" ( Revelation 6:9-11 )...
~ Is not the bride supposed to be at His side during the 1000 years? Who-all then is in the bride?
~ The "grammar of the language" allows for "unmentioned" people in the 'scene'. The phrase "and [I saw] the souls of them..." does not mean that they were the only ones who were present or could be seen in the 'scene' - only that they were seen and mentioned. Others could have been there also...
~ This description is speaking strictly of those who were beheaded for not accepting the mark of the beast - which would actually not include the apostles themselves - nor "the souls under the alter" ( Revelation 6:9-11 )...
~ Is not the bride supposed to be at His side during the 1000 years? Who-all then is in the bride?
I have pondered it as well... Consider the following:
~ The "grammar of the language" allows for "unmentioned" people in the 'scene'. The phrase "and [I saw] the souls of them..." does not mean that they were the only ones who were present or could be seen in the 'scene' - only that they were seen and mentioned. Others could have been there also...
~ This description is speaking strictly of those who were beheaded for not accepting the mark of the beast - which would actually not include the apostles themselves - nor "the souls under the alter" ( Revelation 6:9-11 )...
~ Is not the bride supposed to be at His side during the 1000 years? Who-all then is in the bride?
~ The "grammar of the language" allows for "unmentioned" people in the 'scene'. The phrase "and [I saw] the souls of them..." does not mean that they were the only ones who were present or could be seen in the 'scene' - only that they were seen and mentioned. Others could have been there also...
~ This description is speaking strictly of those who were beheaded for not accepting the mark of the beast - which would actually not include the apostles themselves - nor "the souls under the alter" ( Revelation 6:9-11 )...
~ Is not the bride supposed to be at His side during the 1000 years? Who-all then is in the bride?
The whole book is illusionary, (meaning there are illusions{illustrations} for actual spirit truths.)
Cannot the term "those beheaded for the gospel's sake" also mean - those who have given up the right to self determination in this system? (beheaded)
- As in they gave up the seeking of their own welfare for the gospel?
In other words, those who gave up self centered activity(own brain in the head) - (beheaded) for the King who would rule them with a rod of iron in THIS life? - Meaning one who would sanctify them by His own blood(life).
- In this current life, and therefore be no more seeking self serving with the natural mind(head) of the god of this age(fallen)?
Do you see what I mean?
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I have pondered it as well... Consider the following:
~ The "grammar of the language" allows for "unmentioned" people in the 'scene'. The phrase "and [I saw] the souls of them..." does not mean that they were the only ones who were present or could be seen in the 'scene' - only that they were seen and mentioned. Others could have been there also...
~ This description is speaking strictly of those who were beheaded for not accepting the mark of the beast - which would actually not include the apostles themselves - nor "the souls under the alter" ( Revelation 6:9-11 )...
~ Is not the bride supposed to be at His side during the 1000 years? Who-all then is in the bride?
~ The "grammar of the language" allows for "unmentioned" people in the 'scene'. The phrase "and [I saw] the souls of them..." does not mean that they were the only ones who were present or could be seen in the 'scene' - only that they were seen and mentioned. Others could have been there also...
~ This description is speaking strictly of those who were beheaded for not accepting the mark of the beast - which would actually not include the apostles themselves - nor "the souls under the alter" ( Revelation 6:9-11 )...
~ Is not the bride supposed to be at His side during the 1000 years? Who-all then is in the bride?
Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
Crown implies RULING. Ruling where? During the Millennium because after that there is nothing left to rule.
Now consider this. Rev 13:
8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
This happens AFTER the 7th Trump. If all saints who remain are taken at the 7th trump, why include the qualifier, "all who dwell... whose names have not been written?" They would be the only class left. Why mention patience and faith to saints if they have been taken? Again, maybe not all saint are taken. Perhaps just the martyred and or the 144,000.
We see the 144K on Mt. Zion with the Lord in Rev 14:
1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father's name written on their foreheads.
But the 144K are not mentioned with Him in Zech 14:
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. 5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.
The scene above has the Lord here on the Mt. of Olives (not Mt. Zion), and he isn't "taking" or "rapturing" anyone, instead He is providing an escape. And this escape is clearly for the saints. Remember what is said to the Churches in Rev 1-3?
7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God."
11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death."
26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations-- 27 'He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11 Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown. 12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. And I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. 22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."
So it seems that if a saint makes it through the Tribulation, he will rule the nations with the Lamb. Now consider the martyred seen in heaven after the 6th seal. Doesn't it sound like they are also with the Lamb who we know dwells amongst them during His 1,000 year reign?
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?" 14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."
Back to Zech 14:
8 And in that day it shall be That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem, Half of them toward the eastern sea And half of them toward the western sea; In both summer and winter it shall occur. 9 And the Lord shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be-- "The Lord is one," And His name one.
Doesn't it appear these passages tie?
I now think it possible that all martyrs will be resurrected and they, along with those who make it through the Tribulation will be given glorified bodies and live and reign with Christ 1,000 years. Then the rest of the dead will be raised and judged at the Great White Throne.
G
NOW --- this thread has gotten side-tracked ( again ) -- and, I want it to get back on track - by examining Luke 21:24 as I have been trying to do for weeks...
Luke 21:24 must be a very powerful verse -- and intimidating, too! -- because nobody seems to be willing to touch it with a 1000-foot pole!
THIS verse seems to create questions -- the possible answers to which I want to discuss.
I do not want to discuss "outside" or "third party" opinions. I want to know how YOU ( other CCers ) interpret this verse - in the context of the Olivet Discourse passages of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21.
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. ~ Luke 21:24
I believe that it aligns with Matthew 24:21 and Mark 13:19 - which both describe the beginning of "a period of great tribulation":
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. ~ Matthew 24:21
For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. ~ Mark 13:19
The end of that same 'great tribulation' is marked by what is described in Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, and Luke 21:25-27. ( Please see the chart. )
So then - we see everything described in Luke 21:34 as occurring after the beginning of the 'great tribulation'.
And, we see the 'great tribulation' continuing until [ certain events ] that occur [ a short time ] before the Second Coming of Christ.
If the abomination of desolation occurred around 70 A.D. - then it would seem that we are in the [ ~ 2000 year ] great tribulation now.
If the abomination of desolation is yet future - how do you explain the description in Luke 21:24?
WITH REGARD TO THIS VERSE - in the context of the Olivet Discourse:
When did / does the abomination of desolation occur?
How do you define the details of the description in Luke 21:24 in a way that "fits" the answer to the previous question?
In other words - define the "details" that I am talking about in a such a way that THIS VERSE makes complete sense.
Luke 21:24 must be a very powerful verse -- and intimidating, too!
-- because nobody seems to be willing to touch it with a 1000-foot pole! THIS verse seems to create questions -- the possible answers to which I want to discuss.
I do not want to discuss "outside" or "third party" opinions. I want to know how YOU ( other CCers ) interpret this verse - in the context of the Olivet Discourse passages of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21.
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. ~ Luke 21:24
I believe that it aligns with Matthew 24:21 and Mark 13:19 - which both describe the beginning of "a period of great tribulation":
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. ~ Matthew 24:21
For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. ~ Mark 13:19
The end of that same 'great tribulation' is marked by what is described in Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, and Luke 21:25-27. ( Please see the chart. )
So then - we see everything described in Luke 21:34 as occurring after the beginning of the 'great tribulation'.
And, we see the 'great tribulation' continuing until [ certain events ] that occur [ a short time ] before the Second Coming of Christ.
If the abomination of desolation occurred around 70 A.D. - then it would seem that we are in the [ ~ 2000 year ] great tribulation now.
If the abomination of desolation is yet future - how do you explain the description in Luke 21:24?
WITH REGARD TO THIS VERSE - in the context of the Olivet Discourse:
When did / does the abomination of desolation occur?
How do you define the details of the description in Luke 21:24 in a way that "fits" the answer to the previous question?
In other words - define the "details" that I am talking about in a such a way that THIS VERSE makes complete sense.
I do not want this thread to get off into every "rabbit trail" imaginable - and get away from the "current focus" ( Luke 21:24 ) for the next 125 posts. I want it to stay focused - right now - on Luke 21:24 -- "until it makes perfect sense"...
Please address the questions that I have asked -- because, the answers to these questions are what is going to "satisfy" my 'quandary' with this verse.
"I increased the font size of some of the text in the above quote for emphasis - I am not trying to yell at anyone..."
Don't get me wrong -- I enjoy a good discussion - and sometimes - even "running rabbits" can prove to be beneficial. However, this thread "has the very important purpose in mind" of determining the correct and proper understanding of those things written about in the 'Olivet Discourse' passages.
I do not want this thread to get off into every "rabbit trail" imaginable - and get away from the "current focus" ( Luke 21:24 ) for the next 125 posts. I want it to stay focused - right now - on Luke 21:24 -- "until it makes perfect sense"...
Please address the questions that I have asked -- because, the answers to these questions are what is going to "satisfy" my 'quandary' with this verse.
"I increased the font size of some of the text in the above quote for emphasis - I am not trying to yell at anyone..."
I do not want this thread to get off into every "rabbit trail" imaginable - and get away from the "current focus" ( Luke 21:24 ) for the next 125 posts. I want it to stay focused - right now - on Luke 21:24 -- "until it makes perfect sense"...
Please address the questions that I have asked -- because, the answers to these questions are what is going to "satisfy" my 'quandary' with this verse.
"I increased the font size of some of the text in the above quote for emphasis - I am not trying to yell at anyone..."
Prior to Luke 21:25, is describing AD 70 stuff. All of the below is AD 70 events. The same caution about fleeing to the mountains and woe to pregnant and nursing babies apply to both eras. We know the Jews fled to the mountains in AD 70 as we have Masada and other mountain areas defended just as we know Jews will flee in the end times when the Abomination of Desolation occurs. There is a difference between this warning and the one given by Matthew. Matthew adds, "And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath."
20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
After Luke 21:25 describes end time stuff. I know it is a sudden transition unlike Matthew and Mark but this is clear to me. Look how this ties to Ezekiel 38, describing the modern Israel:
8 After many days you will be visited. In the latter years you will come into the land of those brought back from the sword and gathered from many people on the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate; they were brought out of the nations, and now all of them dwell safely.
Being led away captive into all nations describes what happened to AD 70 Jews. The desolation described here is NOT the Abomination of Desolation, it is the desolation of Jerusalem as Jews fled the Romans and were killed or captured and led away leaving Jerusalem desolate of God's people.
Again, none of the authors of the Olivet Discourse were there to hear what Jesus said, so they are likely recounting the event second hand from the 4 who were there. I'm sure Jesus gave much more information than what was recorded. He likely drew parallels to AD 70 Jerusalem and End Times Jerusalem. Since both periods represent great turmoil in the city with Jews fleeing and enemies killing citizens, it shouldn't be surprising that the same warnings would be used, in this case, flee. Nor should it be surprising that you don't want to be pregnant during any war or events as AD 70 was and the end times will be.
I admit, I was stumped by this same issue years ago but when you look at these two events as very similar and see where the clear breaks are from the AD 70 era to the future era that each author uses, it becomes clear. Matthew and Mark focus very little on times that were contemporary to them. They jump right into end time stuff. For Mark end time talk begins at vs. 10 while Matthew's end time stuff begins at vs. 6. Luke doesn't start his end time stuff until vs. 25
I admit, I was stumped by this same issue years ago but when you look at these two events as very similar and see where the clear breaks are from the AD 70 era to the future era that each author uses, it becomes clear. Matthew and Mark focus very little on times that were contemporary to them. They jump right into end time stuff. For Mark end time talk begins at vs. 10 while Matthew's end time stuff begins at vs. 6. Luke doesn't start his end time stuff until vs. 25
G
I believe that verses 10-11 are "well after" 70 A.D. -- even up to the present day - and future.
I believe that verses 12-19 are "before, during, and after" - and, possibly, "well after" 70 A.D.
I believe that verses 20-23 are around 70 A.D. and the immediate aftermath.
I believe that the span of time of the accomplishment of the things described in verse 24 is long and not short.
Not likely. Sufficient matching details. I am not buying it. Same event. One time. ( One answer. Three separate accounts. )
Agreed.
How do you know that the Abomination of Desolation is future and not 70 A.D. ?
This is meaningless in view of the fact that the three accounts are each "a little different" in the particular details recorded...
Agreed.
Agreed.
Yes - I know that the Abomination of Desolation is not specifically mentioned in the Luke account...
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I believe that the three Olivet Discourse accounts are three separate accounts by three separate authors of the same discourse about the same set of events. Yes - some details about some events are present in some accounts that are not present in other accounts. However, I am not inclined to think that an entire event would be left out of the first two of the three accounts ( but not the third ) while another completely separate event would be left out of the third of the three accounts ( but not the first two ).
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( more to come... )
I believe that verses 12-19 are "before, during, and after" - and, possibly, "well after" 70 A.D.
I believe that verses 20-23 are around 70 A.D. and the immediate aftermath.
I believe that the span of time of the accomplishment of the things described in verse 24 is long and not short.
Not likely. Sufficient matching details. I am not buying it. Same event. One time. ( One answer. Three separate accounts. )
Agreed.
How do you know that the Abomination of Desolation is future and not 70 A.D. ?
This is meaningless in view of the fact that the three accounts are each "a little different" in the particular details recorded...
Agreed.
Agreed.
Yes - I know that the Abomination of Desolation is not specifically mentioned in the Luke account...
~
I believe that the three Olivet Discourse accounts are three separate accounts by three separate authors of the same discourse about the same set of events. Yes - some details about some events are present in some accounts that are not present in other accounts. However, I am not inclined to think that an entire event would be left out of the first two of the three accounts ( but not the third ) while another completely separate event would be left out of the third of the three accounts ( but not the first two ).
~
( more to come... )