Where did the idea that the soul is immortal originate?

notuptome · May 29, 2013

Everyone who is born from above is no longer natural. The natural man is the unsaved man. What I am saying is that from what you are posting it is not clear just what your relationship with Jesus Christ is based upon.
What purpose does it serve to argue that the passage about Lazurus and the rich man is a parable and not a true actual account? Is your intent to support a doctrine or to determine a truth? I believe that the persons present when Jesus taught this lesson every single one knew exactly who Jesus was talking about. These were Jews who knew what Jesus was saying when He spoke of Abrahams bosom. I suppose that there was some there that day who stopped up their ears so as not to hear what Jesus taught.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome · May 29, 2013

Laodicea said:

I'll try typing slower so you can understand. (just kidding) Jude is using what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah as an illustration of judgment by fire. God's judgment was on the inhabitants and not the buildings, correct? The inhabitants were judged because of their perversion in going after strange flesh. The fire that came upon them was not kindled upon the earth but came down from heaven, here's it's eternal nature. You can only demonstrate that the fire is not burning on the earth. You cannot demonstrate that the fire is not burning in sheol, or hades, or the grave where these souls are currently residing. Now since Jude is writing by inspiration of God I tend to accept that what he says is true. Jude says it's eternal fire and eternal judgment as from the context they cannot be separated. Just because I cannot see it burning right now does not mean it's not still burning in the realm of eternity.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Laodicea · May 29, 2013

Still no Bible just opininion. The Bible does not need an interpreter So answer the text I quoted with another Bible text amd no opinion. God can speak through the Bible, he does not need an interpreter. What you are doing is passing off your opinions as truth.

notuptome · May 29, 2013

Laodicea said:

God gave believers the Holy Spirit to lead into the truth.
Why do you hate the eternal nature of the soul? If heaven is eternal why not the lake of fire? Why don't you just come out and tell me what you have against eternal condemnation? Why do you think your judgment is greater than Gods?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Michael50 · May 29, 2013

notuptome said:

Roger, the soul is not immortal. Souls die. God says that. "The soul that sinneth shall die" Ezekiel 18;4

Roger, go back and examine Genesis. You will see that satan wanted Adam & Eve to eat from the Tree of Life AFTER they disobeyed God. And if Adam & Eve would have eaten from that tree of Life AFTER they disobeyed God,, then you would be right,, Sin & Sinners would be immortal. But NOTICE, God didn't permit Adam nor Eve to eat from the Tree of Life after they disobeyed God. God placed Cherubim at the entrance to guard the way to the Tree of Life. Genesis 3:24.

Satan is counting on folks to beleive the dead are alive. Through spiritism Satan will make the living beleive that they are talking and conversing with the dead. And they are actually in conversation with Demons.

BananaPie · May 29, 2013

Michael50 said:

Michael, that same Bible also says, "the dust will return to the Earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God Who gave it" (Eccl. 12:7)

The questions to Michael now becomes When?

1. When does the spirit die?

a) On Super Bowl Sunday, if you're male, or on Black Friday, if you're female.

b) When the body sustains heart failure after kidney failure, liver failure, brain dead and lung collapse (Medical definition of demise) and the coroner is staring at your stiff toes.

c) When the person's name is not found in the Book of Life (Rev. 20:12-15)

d) When God decides to cast the spirit into Gehenna Fire after the body has died (Luke 12:5)
**************************
2. Why would the spirit "return to God Who gave it" if the spirit would be already dead?

After all, more facts to consider are according to the Bible.
1. God is not God of the dead, but of the living.
2. God is Holy and God is Spirit.
3. God is all consuming fire and cannot lie.
4. God has requested that the spirit return to Him upon the death of the body.
5. God is the resurrection (resurrection is only meaningful to a dead body by definition of resurrection).

From your conclusion, Michael, Why would the Holy Spirit of God request that dead spirits return to Him? See how that question does not make any sense? ...just sayin'

HollyLoree · May 29, 2013

notuptome said:

Oh, I had a purpose. Yes, I'm sure the people present, especially the Pharisees knew what Jesus was talking about. He was talking about them. My purpose was this: everyone uses this parable to support the belief in an eternal torture/torment of sinners. It was not told for that purpose. This thread is about the concept of an immortal soul, which rides in the same boat as the eternal torment concept. Both are grossly misunderstood concepts in the Bible. I have been a Christian since I was 9. My relationship is with Christ, and my beliefs come through prayer and study. My purpose is to expose misconceptions about Biblical truths. Right from the start, God said to Adam that if Adam ate that fruit, he would die. God said nothing about Adam having an immortal soul that would then float away and exist forever and ever. He said Adam would die. In another scripture it says that when the body dies, the mind dies and the thoughts die. It says elsewhere that our enemies will be ashes beneath our feet. Nowhere but nowhere does it say anyone, when they die a physical death, descend in a spiritual form into the bowels of hell where they are tormented never ending. Yes, there are those verses in Revelation which are misunderstood because the word eternal in English doesn't mean the same thing as did the original Greek. If it did mean the same thing, then the entire Bible contradicts itself. But people are so bound and determined to believe in an immortal soul as well as eternal torment, they'll cling to this belief regardless of all the proof to the contrary. I think it's sick, and does God's word an injustice.

Look at all the different interpretations for that verse in Genesis.

New International Version (©2011)
Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.New Living Translation (©2007)
Then the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground. He breathed the breath of life into the man's nostrils, and the man became a living person.
English Standard Version (©2001)
then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
Then the LORD God formed the man out of the dust from the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and the man became a living being.
International Standard Version (©2012)
So the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground, breathed life into his lungs, and the man became a living being.
NET Bible (©2006)
The LORD God formed the man from the soil of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Then the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the earth and blew the breath of life into his nostrils. The man became a living being.
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
American King James Version
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Whether you call it a living soul, a living being, or a living creature, it is still what man BECAME when God breathed the breath of life into it. God DID NOT breath into man a living soul.

By the way, what's your agenda? Let me guess: it's this belief that you're this great spiritual person that knows (because you're so special to God) all these secret truths that only special people know. How about you care about the truth for a change?

notuptome · May 29, 2013

Michael50 said:

There was no death in the garden until sin entered in. Adam and Eve were sustained by the will of God and knew nothing of death. After sin entered in they died first spiritually. They also began the slow process of physical death. They were ejected from the garden so they would not eat of the tree of life while in their sinful condition. God passed the penalty of sin upon all the earth.
Consider that Jesus did not sin. Jesus could not die on the cross of Calvary because He was sinless death could not touch Him. If you read closely you will see that as He was on the cross He bowed His head and gave up the Spirit. John 19:30 I can tell you that if Christ had not willed His Spirit to leave He would still be right there on that cross. Only when Christ took our sin upon Himself did He depart from His body to carry our sin into death.
Your difficulty seems to be in the limitations of the English language. Souls is a term used to describe both the body and the spirit of man. Even today pilots refer to the number of souls on board their aircraft. In scripture we have the soul-spirit of man that comes from God and resides in the body of flesh. Heb 4:12 is interesting in that it speaks of dividing asunder the soul and the spirit.
I really do not know why you are so bothered by the eternal nature of God's judgment upon sin. Romans 1:16-23

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome · May 29, 2013

HollyLoree said:

Oh, I had a purpose. Yes, I'm sure the people present, especially the Pharisees knew what Jesus was talking about. He was talking about them. My purpose was this: everyone uses this parable to support the belief in an eternal torture/torment of sinners. It was not told for that purpose. This thread is about the concept of an immortal soul, which rides in the same boat as the eternal torment concept. Both are grossly misunderstood concepts in the Bible. I have been a Christian since I was 9. My relationship is with Christ, and my beliefs come through prayer and study. My purpose is to expose misconceptions about Biblical truths. Right from the start, God said to Adam that if Adam ate that fruit, he would die. God said nothing about Adam having an immortal soul that would then float away and exist forever and ever. He said Adam would die. In another scripture it says that when the body dies, the mind dies and the thoughts die. It says elsewhere that our enemies will be ashes beneath our feet. Nowhere but nowhere does it say anyone, when they die a physical death, descend in a spiritual form into the bowels of hell where they are tormented never ending. Yes, there are those verses in Revelation which are misunderstood because the word eternal in English doesn't mean the same thing as did the original Greek. If it did mean the same thing, then the entire Bible contradicts itself. But people are so bound and determined to believe in an immortal soul as well as eternal torment, they'll cling to this belief regardless of all the proof to the contrary. I think it's sick, and does God's word an injustice.

Look at all the different interpretations for that verse in Genesis.

New International Version (©2011)
Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.New Living Translation (©2007)
Then the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground. He breathed the breath of life into the man's nostrils, and the man became a living person.
English Standard Version (©2001)
then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
Then the LORD God formed the man out of the dust from the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and the man became a living being.
International Standard Version (©2012)
So the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground, breathed life into his lungs, and the man became a living being.
NET Bible (©2006)
The LORD God formed the man from the soil of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Then the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the earth and blew the breath of life into his nostrils. The man became a living being.
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
American King James Version
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Whether you call it a living soul, a living being, or a living creature, it is still what man BECAME when God breathed the breath of life into it. God DID NOT breath into man a living soul.

By the way, what's your agenda? Let me guess: it's this belief that you're this great spiritual person that knows (because you're so special to God) all these secret truths that only special people know. How about you care about the truth for a change?

God's holiness and righteousness demands nothing less than eternal condemnation on sin. You still have not revealed why you have such a problem with God taking and pouring out His terrible wrath upon sin. God demands perfect righteousness. Sin absolutely cannot exist in His presence.
I do not know what kind of Christian you have been since you were nine but your thinking on this matter is carnal. Just what did Jesus die on Calvary to save?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Michael50 · May 29, 2013

BananaPie said:

\

You misunderstand what the "spirit " is that returns unto God who gave it.

What happens when a person dies?

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Eccl 12:7

What is the "spirit" that returns unto God at death?

"The body without the spirit is dead." James 2:26
"The spirit of God (breath) is in my nostrils." Job 27:3

The "spirit" that returns to God, is nothing more than the Breath of Life. The spirit of every man, reguardless of whether he is rightous or not, returns unto God who gave it.

Even Jesus gave up His spirit,, "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, He said, "Father, into your hands I commit My spirit." Having said this, He breathed His last." Luke 23:46

"And the Lord god breathed in his nostrils the BREATH OF LIFE; and man became a living soul" Gen 2:7

In order to have life,, 2 things must be present,,, Body + Breath = a living soul.

Tortoise · May 29, 2013

notuptome said:

Personally I don't like it because the Bible doesn't say it.
I wasn't taught annihilationism. I read the Bible and that's what it says.
After the resurrection people cast into the fire suffer the "second death" - how can that mean eternal life?

Also, if a sinner exists in some firey pit forever, then sin still exists. And the wages of sin are death so...
If death is the last thing to be destroyed how could sin (from the sinners) still exist - as the wages of sin are death.
The traditionalist view has too many internal contradictions.

btw - to the person (not notuptome) who kept going on about this belief coming from a particular group you will find an increasing number of people are starting to realise that the traditional view is doubtful. The belief is held by people across the spectrum of Christian belief. Take a peek at rethinkinghell.com and you will find lots of people who believe in conditional annihilationism - and many are evangelical and not from any group people want to look down their noses at.

notuptome · May 29, 2013

Michael50 said:

\

You misunderstand what the "spirit " is that returns unto God who gave it.

What happens when a person dies?

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Eccl 12:7

What is the "spirit" that returns unto God at death?

"The body without the spirit is dead." James 2:26
"The spirit of God (breath) is in my nostrils." Job 27:3

The "spirit" that returns to God, is nothing more than the Breath of Life. The spirit of every man, reguardless of whether he is rightous or not, returns unto God who gave it.

Even Jesus gave up His spirit,, "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, He said, "Father, into your hands I commit My spirit." Having said this, He breathed His last." Luke 23:46

"And the Lord god breathed in his nostrils the BREATH OF LIFE; and man became a living soul" Gen 2:7

In order to have life,, 2 things must be present,,, Body + Breath = a living soul.

Well what are you going to do with Jer 1:5 Jehovah said unto Jeremiah before I formed thee in the womb I knew thee. Is this existence before the body? If so what form was Jeremiah before his body was formed?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Tortoise · May 29, 2013

notuptome said:

As God exists outside time, by definition God knows all things about all people over all time.

notuptome · May 29, 2013

Tortoise said:

Men have been rethinking hell since the first soul was sent there. Now the broad path which many travel does not ensure a happy journeys end.
I find no contradictions only rebellion against God. Gods word has not changed nor will it ever. Not one jot or tittle.
You are getting philosophical about hell. Lets stay biblical. God said its there and lost souls go there. It is not necessary that any should perish but all can come to repentance. If one perishes one must transgress the will of God to get there. It has been well said that the road to hell crosses over the blood of Christ. God testifies of His righteousness and holiness. God demands absolute perfection in His presence. Why then is it that some will say that Gods wrath will not abide on sin forever? Is Gods wrath any less terrible than His love is wonderful? Are you really endeavoring to change God into an image you find more acceptable?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome · May 29, 2013

Tortoise said:

So then there is no contradiction in God's wrath upon sin outside of time being eternal.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

homwardbound · May 29, 2013

Michael50 said:

Yuo know I just have to reply to this, if the wicked are to be turned to ashes and be nothing more, then you are promoting no punishment for sin, if one is to be punshed for sin really actually for unbelief and thoise that do not beleive are going to be burned up to nothingness, Then I see no punishment for harming my neighbor, so then if this is true shall I go out and just act as the Corinthians did since they were forgiven by God they took adavantage of God's grace and harmed others not caring because the enemy put in their minds what does it matter you are forgiven so just do what you want and they did this and is why Paul wrote 1 cor. to them to straighten out the lie

Now here you are whether you realize this or not is not my issue, my issue here is you are promoting sin and harming ohters without a care or not seeing what this promotes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It promotes I don't care because if I am just going to be burned up and gone then there is no torment for me and I can just party away and just not care, steal, kill and destroy why not, I will be nothing just burned up
NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
God wil the punish the unbeleiver if one ignores this great salvation of God's and just doesnot care even though he appears to, only after his own greed as was in the day of Noah
Satan already has been judged and is already destroyed found in John 16, and all that is left is for us is whether we will beleive or will not believe
Hoping you do believe and see what I am saying and what you are mistakenly reporting, causing others to stay selfish and not care.

homwardbound · May 29, 2013

Michael50 said:

Being punished in a forever torment is punihment deserved Gnashing of teeth, a deserved punishment for me and all, but God had Mercy on us by Christ through the cross and life new life is contained in the cross at the resurrection of for us the believers here and now, no longer being a part of this world only in it. We are to be as Paul showed us so well crucified flesh dead gone burned up here and now that is the fire of the beleiver that comes from the Holy Ghost to burn our flesh dead and gone here and now being alive in the Spirit of God where only God can be served

John 4:23
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
John 4:22-24 (in Context) John 4 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
John 4:24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
John 4:23-25 (in Context) John 4 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
John 14:17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
John 14:16-18 (in Context) John 14 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
John 16:13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Now as John the Baptist stated Christ Baptizes with the Holy Spirit and with fire
Matthew 3:11I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Waht the fire for? it is for when one that comes to belief and says Oh Lord please turn on the kiln and burn away any and all evil mindedness from me. Now the Holy Spirit will not turn on the kiln and do this until the one asks because otherwise it would be invading ones free will, and is why we are left with either we believe or we do not, and at the end times there will be no excuse for any of mankind for all will have had the consciuous chance to beleive God, some will and have consciously turned away and have forsaken the truth
Those will have no excuse and be tormented forever and ever.
Christ did it all for us and only left us with to either believe or not, and this unbelief is what Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! that will never be forgiven is unbeleif a complete conscious choice
Thank you for all that hear

4enlightment · May 29, 2013

Our perception of death is physical; what we consider death is when there isn't any blood flowing and or heart beat, and no signs of physical life, motionless. In the spiritual perception is the same but the soul that is in this suspended realm that is death, and which no signs of life and or the soul itself will not have any signs of it also. What help bring life in our bodies is the eyes ears and so on. Without them we be lifeless.

Matthew 6:23But if your eyes are unhealthy, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!

Elin · May 29, 2013

HollyLoree said:

Are you talking about the book of Revelation, or all of revelation?

Nope, the NT was not written in Hebrew.

It was written in Greek, and by Jews.

It is the revelation of Jesus, and is:
a) superior to the revelation of the former prophets (Heb 1:1-2), because it completes the incomplete revelation of the former prophets,
b) superior to the revelation of angels (Heb 1:3-2:9),
c) superior to the revelation of Moses (Heb 3:1-19)

and, therefore, is the light in which all former revelation is to be understood.

Not when understood in the light of Jesus' revelation, which is the NT, and removes all the contradiction between the OT and the NT that your massive misunderstandings present.

Actually, it is your theology that ignores the relation between the NT revelation from Jesus and the OT revelation from prophets, angels and Moses.

Jesus' parables never misrepresent eternal and divine matters.

The matters presented in the Lazarus narrative are:
1) the separation between eternal destinies of Lazarus and the rich man,
2) the locations of Lazarus and the rich man, one being in Paradise, the blessing of Sheol,
and one being in Hades, the fire of Sheol, and in its torment (Lk 16:23-24),
3) and consistent with Jesus' statements on hell in Mk 9:43-48.

And what about those who ignore the plain words of Jesus in Mk 9:43-48:
"hell, where the fire never goes out" (v.44),
"thrown into hell" (vv. 46, 47),
"where. . .the fire is not quenched (v.48)."

Jesus' words in Mk 9:43-48 state otherwise.

As understood by you, the statements are contradictory, because you do not understand them in the light of the NT, where they are not contradictory, and also where your massive misunderstanding is shown.

Do you have me confused with someone else?

This doesn't relate to anything I've presented.

The words of Jesus in Mk 9:43-48 disagree with you.

I'm gonna' go with his words.

Elin · May 29, 2013

HollyLoree said:

That has no Biblical basis, in either the OT or the NT.
That is an invention of your theology.

In the OT, the "breath (nishma) of life" (Ge 2:7, 7:22) is not the same as spirit (ruach).

Man's breath (nishma) of life is not his spirit (ruach) in the OT.
It is simply his breath, and his spirit is something else.

And in the NT, "spirit" (pneuma) is never the breath (pnoe) of life, anymore than the Holy Spirit (pneuma) is simply breathed (pnoe) air.

The two deaths are physical death and spiritual death.

But "spiritual death" does not mean death of man's immortal spirit.

Rather, it means loss of Holy Spirit life, loss of eternal life.

Adam and Eve were the only ones to experience spiritual death, loss of Holy Spirit life, loss of eternal life, because they are the only ones who were created with eternal life.

Everyone else is now born without Holy Spirit life, without eternal life, in spiritual death.

But their human spirits are not dead, they just do not possess Holy Spirit life, eternal life.

They must be born again, to receive the Holy Spirit life lost by Adam's sin.

Where did the idea that the soul is immortal originate?

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