Who are the two witnesses/prophets in Revelation?

[Ahwatukee]

The trumpets are not the wrath of God, and the 6 trumpets are warnings to the world to turn to God, for He is giving them a chance to repent and acknowledge Him, which after the 6th trumpet they do not, so God gives them the man of sin to rule over them and deceive all people who do not love Him and then the resurrection, for the saints cannot be gathered together unto Christ until the man of sin claims to be God in the middle of the 7 years period, and makes war against the saints.

Good day MattforJesus,

The wrath of God is announced within the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as listed below:

6th seal (includes the previous seals)

Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the commanders, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and free man, hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”

7th Trumpet:

We give thanks to You, Lord God Almighty,the One who is and who was; You have taken Your great power and begun to reign. The nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come.

The Seven Bowl judgments:

Then I saw another great and marvelous sign in heaven: seven angels with the seven final plagues, with which the wrath of God will be completed.

If the seven bowl judgments complete God's wrath, then there would have had to be judgments of wrath prior to the bowls. If you have the bowl judgments as being the last of God's wrath, then other wrath would have to be first or before them.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Good day Lucy!


I hope that this gives you a better understanding of this event.

Not at all. You are going over basics. It's no good you keep repeating that God as not appointed us to suffer his wrath. I know that. But it's quite an assumption to insist a pre-trip rapture is overwhelmingly evident in scripture because of that.
You haven't shown me any scriptural proof that THAT particular trumpet MUST be a pre-trib event. I remain unconvinced
.
This sounds to me like the second coming of Jesus. The resurrection. If there is a rapture at that time, fine but it must be at the time of The Lord's return. Unless you have him returning, going back to heaven, then returning a third time.

1 Thessalonians 4

14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

 

[Ellsworth1943]

Hello Ellsworth,



Oh, but the seven seals and seven trumpets being God's wrath is supported by scripture. Who do you think is opening the seals? It is the Lamb, Jesus Christ. He is the One who is said to trample the wine press of the wrath of God Almighty, which means that He will be the One carrying out God's wrath. That said, the results of the first four seals, which again Jesus will be opening, will be a fourth of the earths population being killed, which based on today's count would be over 1.7 billion people dead as a result of those first four seals. Since Jesus is the one opening the seals, then He is responsible for those deaths, which is apart of God's wrath.

Even if you are one of those who do not believe that the seals are apart of God's wrath, Surely the trumpets are! The announcement of God's wrath take place at the opening of the 6th seal. Therefore, since the trumpets follow that, they would have to be apart of God's judgment. But the fact is that, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are a set and all belong to God's wrath.




To be clear, it is the church that is gathered at the Lord's appearing. Those whom you call saints, will be those who will not have believed in Christ prior to the gathering, but become believers after the church has been gathered. That is why from Rev.4 onward you will never see the word church appear during the narrative of God's wrath. There is a distinction made between the church and saints her in Revelation. The saints are those who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17. They are never referred to as the church. The very fact that the elder is asking John, (who just wrote letters to the seven churches) who this great multitude wearing white robes is, demonstrates that they are not the church. In addition, neither does John know who they are. Therefore the scriptural proof is that, it is those who become believers during the time of God's wrath who those that are not gathered with the church and that because they don't become believers until after the church has been gathered.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands.

Then one of the elders addressed me: “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?”

“Sir,” I answered, “you know.”

So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The Scripture you provided does not prove that those Saints alive during the Great tribulation were saved after the "rapture of the church". That is your opinion. That is you making Scripture say what it does not say.
You are correct, Jesus is opening the seals which simply reveal to John what will take place in what Jesus Himself call "great tribulation" not wrath. Why do you not believe what Jesus calls what is to come?
Jesus is not responsible for those deaths, including many saints, but the man of sin is responsible. Do not blame Jesus for the horror that the man of sin brings upon the world.
The wrath announced at the sixth seal, is announced buy the ungodly men of the earth who are suffering at the hands of the man of sin and have just experienced a great earthquake. Great earthquakes with massive death and destruction are not uncommon.
God's wrath, the seven bowls, is announced from Heaven at the seventh trump.
You can take the word and judgment of sinful man if you wish, I will take the announcement that comes from Heaven.
The time of tribulation as Jesus Himself calls it will be a very terrible time. Like nothing the world has ever seen, but God's wrath is worse.
Saints have suffered tribulation down through the ages and will do so again. Many will die as many have in the past, but many will survive because God will protect those who he chooses to protect.
He protected Daniel and the three Hebrew children. and many others.

I take Scripture for what it clearly states concerning this time and events. I do not try to make it say or imply or elude
to some other meaning.

 

[FlyingDove]

The two great witnesses are the OLD and the NEW Testament scriptures.

They are the two great wintesses containing all the LAW and the prophets and it is these two witnesses that will testify for us or against us in the judgement (John 12:46-47)

Two Books?

Rev 11:

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Parsing Rev 11:2-12:

verse 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy:

verse 7 they get KILLED

verse 8 their bodies lie in the street

verse 11 they stand upon their feet;

WOW! What a couple of weird books

 

[Nehemiah6]

Unless you have him returning, going back to heaven, then returning a third time.

It is an unwarranted assumption that Christ comes to the earth at the Resurrection/Rapture. The Holy Spirit is careful to tell us that He meets the saints IN THE AIR and then returns with them to Heaven. This is all in an instant, in a flash, and the rest of the world does not even see or hear what happens.

On the other hand, at the second coming of Christ, the whole world sees Him and there is UNIVERSAL MOURNING.

Behold, he cometh with clouds [of saints and angels]; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Rev 1:7)

 

[miknik5]

Two Books?

Rev 11:

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Parsing Rev 11:2-12:

verse 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy:

verse 7 they get KILLED

verse 8 their bodies lie in the street

verse 11 they stand upon their feet;

WOW! What a couple of weird books

Why?
why is it weird that the LORD, after they have killed all HIS “prophets” and HIS church is no longer on earth to testify, that HE, in HIS grace, would send another form of witnesses to testify?


How can everyone be judged if everyone has not heard the GOSPEL preached?

 

[Ahwatukee]

And there is only 2 resurrections, one of the saints before the millennial reign of Christ, and one of the dead after the millennial reign of Christ

That can't be because it would mean that the living church would go through the entire wrath of God. Regarding this, see post #37 for the scriptures.

There is not two resurrections of the saints, and Jesus said if they miss the resurrection they will have their portion with the hypocrites, which is why He tells them to watch.

There are three resurrections and two groups who get caught up mentioned in scripture:

* Jesus the first fruits of the first resurrection - 1 Cor.15:20-23

* The church at the Lord's appearing - 1 Thes.4:13-18, 1 Cor.15:51-53

* The Male Child which is a collective name for the 144,000 - Rev.12:5

* The two witnesses - Rev.11:11

* The great tribulation saints - Rev.20:4-6

All of the above are apart of the first resurrection and take place prior to the millennial period.

The resurrection of the unrighteous dead takes place after the millennial period where they will all stand before the Lord, where the books will be opened and will all be judged and held accountable for every sin and every idle word they will have spoken.

 

[miknik5]

That can't be because it would mean that the living church would go through the entire wrath of God. Regarding this, see post #37 for the scriptures.



There are three resurrections and two groups who get caught up mentioned in scripture:

* Jesus the first fruits of the first resurrection - 1 Cor.15:20-23

* The church at the Lord's appearing - 1 Thes.4:13-18, 1 Cor.15:51-53

* The Male Child which is a collective name for the 144,000 - Rev.12:5

* The two witnesses - Rev.11:11

* The great tribulation saints - Rev.20:4-6

All of the above are apart of the first resurrection and take place prior to the millennial period.

The resurrection of the unrighteous dead takes place after the millennial period where they will all stand before the Lord, where the books will be opened and will all be judged and held accountable for every sin and every idle word they will have spoken.

Not to mention that it is HE who constrains all things
but when HE is taken out of the way those things which HE held back by HIS grace will no longer hold


(and HE Promised HE would never leave us)


so when HE is taken out of the way. Where will HIS BODY be?


further there is a first resurrection and a second resurrection. Just as revelation 20 claims that the rest of the dead will not rise until after the 1000 year reign
and who is reigning with HIM?


either here judging
or in heaven judging?

im not sure

but those who had a part in the first resurrection

Those who suffered for their testimony

 

[MattforJesus]

The two witnesses are sent to Israel to turn the Jews to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah,and when the two witnesses are sent to Israel the Gentile nations have followed the beast kingdom in which repentance and salvation is not offered to them anymore.

The Gospel will no longer be preached to the world at the time the 2 witnesses are sent to Israel.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Israel is blinded in part,they accept the Old Testament for the most part,but not the New,until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in,when salvation is no longer available to them,and so all Israel shall be saved,which God will make a full end of all nations,but will not make a full end of Israel.

The man of sin will establish peace in the the Middle East,and it will pave the way for all Jews to go to Israel,and the Jews and the Gentiles will be separated.

The Gentile nations will come together and say Peace and safety,as they try to establish peace on earth.

They will operate by a ten horn kingdom,the world split in to ten sections with a leader in each section.

The ten horn kingdom will fail at obtaining peace,and they turn to the man of sin,New Age Christ,as the answer to have peace on earth,and when all who do not love God follow the beast kingdom,and take the mark,then repentance and salvation is no longer available to the world,and the fulness of the Gentiles will have come in,and the Gospel will not be preached to the world anymore.

God will then send Israel 2 witnesses to turn their hearts to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah,and they will be 2 men.

When the 2 witnesses are sent to Israel the Gospel is not preached in the world by way of books,or by people,for it makes no difference for they took the mark of the beast and cannot repent and be saved,and it is the time for God to end this sin business on earth.

 

[LoveGodForever]

Originally Posted by LoveGodForever

The two great witnesses are the OLD and the NEW Testament scriptures.

They are the two great wintesses containing all the LAW and the prophets and it is these two witnesses that will testify for us or against us in the judgement (John 12:46-47)

Two Books?

Rev 11:
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Parsing Rev 11:2-12:

verse 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy:

verse 7 they get KILLED

verse 8 their bodies lie in the street

verse 11 they stand upon their feet;

WOW! What a couple of weird books

Hello FDD,

You are applying a literal interpretation to a spritual metaphor........

v8 And their dead bodies <rejection of God's Word> shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

The Two Great Witnesses are the OLD and NEW Testament. The Word of God will judge us all in the last day (John 12:47-48)

 

[miknik5]

Hello FDD,

You are applying a literal interpretation to a spritual metaphor........

v8 And their dead bodies <rejection of God's Word> shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

The Two Great Witnesses are the OLD and NEW Testament. The Word of God will judge us all in the last day (John 12:47-48)

These aren’t lying dead because of their rejection of the lords word
these died because of their testimony of HIM

please read revelation 11 in context
that verse is discussing the death of the two witnesses after they give their testimony of JESUS

 

[Nehemiah6]

The Two Great Witnesses are the OLD and NEW Testament. The Word of God will judge us all in the last day (John 12:47-48)

Once we begin going this route of making everything in Scripture allegorical, there is no end to the nonsense we could come up with. The plain teaching of Revelation 11 is that during the reign of the Antichrist, God will send two powerful prophets to earth to TESTIFY about the true God and the true Gospel. From all indications these two will be Moses and Elijah -- living breathing men -- who will be killed at the behest of the Antichrist but will subsequently be resurrected and raptured.

 

[LoveGodForever]

These aren’t lying dead because of their rejection of the lords word
these died because of their testimony of HIM

rsse read revelation 11 in context
that verse is discussing the death of the two witnesses after they give their testimony of JESUS

The Testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prohecy (Revelations 19:10) This is what will be rejected (the Word of God) and those who procliam it.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Not at all. You are going over basics. It's no good you keep repeating that God as not appointed us to suffer his wrath. I know that. But it's quite an assumption to insist a pre-trip rapture is overwhelmingly evident in scripture because of that.

With all due respect, it is not assumption. I keep repeating God's wrath, because people ignore it when it is a major factor. The fact that the wrath of God must take place prior to the Lord's return to end the age and the fact that we are not appointed to suffer that wrath, is a scriptural proof that the church must be removed prior to said wrath. Simply stated, if God's wrath stands in between now and the time that Christ returns to the earth to end the age and we are not appointed to suffer that wrath, then there can only be one conclusion. Which is that the church must be removed prior to the beginning of that wrath.

This sounds to me like the second coming of Jesus. The resurrection. If there is a rapture at that time, fine but it must be at the time of The Lord's return. Unless you have him returning, going back to heaven, then returning a third time.

Rev.19:11-21 is a detailed account of the Lord's return to end the age. It is synonymous with Matt.24:29-31 and Rev.1:7. These are all speaking of the same event when the Lord physically returns to the earth to end the age. In Rev.19:6-8 we have the church/bride receiving her fine linen, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb.

"Hallelujah!For our Lord God, the Almighty, reigns. Let us rejoice and celebrate and give Him the glory. For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His bride has made herself ready. She was given clothing of fine linen, linen bright and pure.”

Since we know that the bride is a designation representing the church, the scripture above demonstrates that the church is receiving her fine line at the wedding of the Lamb, which is being performed in heaven, ergo, the church is shown to be in heaven prior to the Lord's return to the earth. In further support of this, we have that same bride following Christ out of heaven riding on white horses as he returns to the earth to end the age.

"Then I saw heaven standing open, and there before me was a white horse. And its rider is called Faithful and True. With righteousness He judges and wages war. He has eyes like blazing fire, and many royal crowns on His head. He has a name written on Him that only He Himself knows. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and His name is The Word of God. The armies of heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and pure, follow Him on white horses.

Regarding the Lord's return to the earth and the church following him on white horses, we also have the following scripture referring to the same event:

"The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast. They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast. They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

If you don't believe that the church will be gathered prior to the on-set of God's wrath, then please provide an answer as to how the church/bride is already in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb and prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. Simply put, "how did the church get up there in heaven to be present at the wedding of the Lamb and how do they return on white horses out of heaven with the Lord?

The above are all scripturally sound reasons as to why the church must be gathered prior to God's wrath and also demonstrates that the church would already have to be in heaven in order to follow the Lord out of heaven.

 

[miknik5]

Once we begin going this route of making everything in Scripture allegorical, there is no end to the nonsense we could come up with. The plain teaching of Revelation 11 is that during the reign of the Antichrist, God will send two powerful prophets to earth to TESTIFY about the true God and the true Gospel. From all indications these two will be Moses and Elijah -- living breathing men -- who will be killed at the behest of the Antichrist but will subsequently be resurrected and raptured.

Or Enoch and Elijah

 

[Shamah]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Zechariah 4:1-14, “And the messenger who was speaking to me came back and woke me up as a man is awakened from sleep. And he said to me, “What do you see?” So I said, “I have looked, and see: a lampstand all of gold with a bowl on top of it, and on the stand seven lamps with seven spouts to the seven lamps. And two olive trees are by it, one at the right of the bowl and the other at its left. Then I responded and spoke to the messenger who was speaking to me, saying, “What are these, my master? And the messenger who was speaking to me answered and said to me, “Do you not know what these are?” And I said, “No, my master. And he answered and said to me, “This is the word of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]to Zerubbaḇel (scorched Babel*), ‘Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,’ said [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]of hosts. Who are you, great mountain, before Zerubbaḇel? A plain! And he shall bring forth the capstone with shouts of “Favor, favor to it! And the word of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]came to me, saying, The hands of Zerubbaḇel have laid the foundation of this House, and his hands shall complete it. And you shall know that [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]of hosts has sent Me to you. For who has despised the day of small beginnings? They shall rejoice when they see the plumb-line in the hand of Zerubbaḇel. These seven are the eyes of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], which diligently search throughout all the earth. Then I responded and said to him, “What are these two olive trees, one at the right of the lampstand and the other at its left? And I responded a second time and said to him, “What are these two olive branches which empty golden oil from themselves by means of the two gold pipes? And he answered me and said, “Do you not know what these are?” And I said, “No, my master. And he said, “These are the two anointed ones, who stand beside the Master of all the earth.”[/FONT]


“[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Zerubbaḇel” is word #H2216[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]זְרֻבָּבֶל[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], zerûbbâbel, zer-oob-baw-bel', From H2215 and H894; descended of (that is, from) Babylon, that is, born there; Zerubbabel, an Israelite:—Zerubbabel.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Root word; H2215 [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]זָרַב [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]zarab (zaw-raɓ') v., to flow away., [a primitive root], KJV: wax warm.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Brown-Driver-Briggs' Hebrew Definition: Original: [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]זרב[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], Transliteration: Zarab, Phonetic: zaw-rab', Definition: 1. (Pual) to dry up, be warmed, be burned, be scorched, Origin: a primitive root, TWOT entry: 578, Part(s) of speech: Verb [/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Root word; H894 [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]בָּבֶל [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Babel (baw-ɓel') n/l., 1. (meaning) mass confusion (i.e. from so many mixed-up languages)., 2. (location) Babel, the city and tower of Nimrod's kingdom in the land of Shinar (where Yahweh confused the language). Babel was in a region not far from the original location of Eden., 3. (location) Babylon (Babel), including Babylonia and the Babylonian empire., 4. (group) the Babylonians., 5. (person) Babylon, the Great Prostitute. She is a fallen spiritual principality awaiting her tribunal judgment, seeking total domination of this realm by vice and conquest. [from H1101], KJV: Babel, Babylon. , Root(s): H1101 [/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Matthew 17:3-4, “And see, Mosheh and Ěliyahu appeared to them, talking with Him. And Kĕpha answering, said to [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], “Master, it is good for us to be here. If You wish, let us make here three booths: one for You, one for Mosheh, and one for Ěliyahu.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 11:3-13, “And I shall give unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clad in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees (Eze 4:3) and the two lampstands that are standing before the Mighty One of the earth. And if anyone wishes to harm them, fire comes out from their mouth and consumes their enemies. And if anyone wishes to harm them, he has to be killed in that way. These possess authority to shut the heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy. And they possess authority over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they wish. And when they have ended their witness, the beast coming up out of the pit of the deep shall fight against them, and overcome them, and kill them, and their dead bodies lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Seḏom and Mitsrayim, where also our Master was impaled, and some of the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations see their dead bodies for three and a half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be placed into tombs, and those dwelling on the earth rejoice over them and exult. And they shall send gifts to each other, because these two prophets tortured those dwelling on the earth. And after the three and a half days a spirit of life from YHWH entered into them, and they stood upon their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. And they heard a loud voice from the heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up into the heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them. And in that hour there came to be a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. And in the earthquake seven thousand men were killed, and the rest became afraid and gave esteem to the Mighty One of the heaven.”[/FONT]

 

[LoveGodForever]

These aren’t lying dead because of their rejection of the lords word
these died because of their testimony of HIM

please read revelation 11 in context
that verse is discussing the death of the two witnesses after they give their testimony of JESUS

The Testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prohecy (Revelations 19:10) This is what will be rejected (the Word of God) and those who procliam it.

 

[miknik5]

The Testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prohecy (Revelations 19:10) This is what will be rejected (the Word of God) and those who procliam it.

What is your view regarding the two prophets
are they serving GOD by their testimony
or are they not serving GOD by their testimony?

you stated in your first post that these two whose dead bodies were lying in the street is due to their rejection of GOD’s word


ate tou sure you understand what you are stating?

 

[Ahwatukee]

The Scripture you provided does not prove that those Saints alive during the Great tribulation were saved after the "rapture of the church". That is your opinion. That is you making Scripture say what it does not say.

You have to have some kind reasoning in order to understand that, since the elder is asking John who these in white robes are and the fact that they are never referred to as the church, ergo, they are not the church nor are they ever referred to as the church. You just don't have enough study regarding eschatology to understand what I am saying. Whenever I produce scripture, you say that it is my opinion. Talking to you is like talking to a preterist.

You are correct, Jesus is opening the seals which simply reveal to John what will take place in what Jesus Himself call "great tribulation" not wrath. Why do you not believe what Jesus calls what is to come?

You have no understanding that the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are how God is going to carry out the day of the Lord, the time of His wrath. You don't understand that Jesus is the One opening the seals, which results in the fatalities of over 1.7 people. And that's not considered wrath? As I told you, but you did not listen, Jesus is the One who tramples the wind press of the wrath of God Almighty and the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments is how he will carry out that wrath.

Why do you not believe what Jesus calls what is to come?

Here is the scripture:

"They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

Do you know anything about the Greek aorist tense? Those words "has come" are in the aorist tense, which means that the announcement is referring to God's wrath in its entirety, which includes the seals that will have taken place prior to the announcement, as well as the trumpets and bowl judgments which follow the announcement.

Saints have suffered tribulation down through the ages and will do so again. Many will die as many have in the past, but many will survive because God will protect those who he chooses to protect. He protected Daniel and the three Hebrew children. and many others.

Many make this same error that you are making above. The trials and tribulation that Jesus said believers would have come at the hands of mankind and the powers of darkness. In opposition, God's coming wrath is not the same, as it will be an unprecedented time of wrath specifically sent from God. Those from the on-set of the church until this very day have been suffering the trials and tribulations that Jesus said we would. However, once the church has been gathered everyone on the earth at that time will be exposed to God's direct wrath, which will decimate the majority of the earths population and dismantle all human government in preparation for the Lord's millennial kingdom.

I take Scripture for what it clearly states concerning this time and events. I do not try to make it say or imply or elude
to some other meaning.

It is the Spirit who gives discernment regarding the things to come.

 

[LoveGodForever]

Comments within BLUE.....

What is your view regarding the two prophets (= two messengers; the OLD and the NEW)
are they serving GOD by their testimony (of COURSE the testimony of Jesus us the Spirit of Prophecy; Rev 19:10)
or are they not serving GOD by their testimony?

you stated in your first post that these two whose dead bodies were lying in the street is due to their rejection of GOD’s word
ate tou sure you understand what you are stating? (Indeed they are dead because no one will BELIEVE them anymore or those who proclaim its message)

There is nothing hidden that shall not be revleaed come judgement day. Only those that BELIEVE and FOLLOW the Word of God will be saved. Unbelievers will see the risen Word but by then it will be too late because they have already rejected it. It is the Word of God that will judge us all in the last days. SIN will keep all who practice it OUT of God's Kingdom (John 12:47-48, Hebrews 10:26-27)