Why Catholicism isn't Christianity...
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Z
That is true, but it doesn't answer the question.
You say "we come to believe in Him because we come to believe in Him."
Now that is contrary to Scripture, which says:
35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’[e]Therefore everyone who has heard and learned[f] from the Father comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
(John 6:35-40, 44-46, 65, NKJV)
Grace and Love
You say "we come to believe in Him because we come to believe in Him."
Now that is contrary to Scripture, which says:
35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’[e]Therefore everyone who has heard and learned[f] from the Father comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
(John 6:35-40, 44-46, 65, NKJV)
Grace and Love
R
Thank you. I know not all Protestants think like the OP. I find it laughable a lot that many Protestants think that all Catholics do is listen to the Pope all day. Though yes, it is nice to have a leader of the Church whether we agree with him or not. And if Protestants were honest, they have their own leader too, whether it's their pastor, Calvin, Luther, etc. they just don't call them popes.
S
Roman Catholicism isn't the Catholic Church. The true Church is the Catholic Church. One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church (Second Ecumenical Council, 381 AD). The epistles of St. Paul to Timothy show the hierarchy of the Catholic Church. bishops, presbyters (elders/priests), and deacons. And the laity are the common priesthood of believers. All believers are priests in some sense, but not in a formal sense. They are lay priests. But they can't administer the sacraments. Only the ordained bishops and priests and deacons can administer the church sacraments. Not everyone in the Church baptizes and gives communion to people.
The leader of the Catholic Church is Jesus. However, knowing how we humans are, before He ascended into Heaven, He appointed a group of people to function as His administrators. The Apostles were the first ones appointed to these offices. The Pope is the successor to the office held by the Apostle Peter. Peter was singled out by Our Lord to be the Rock. The Orthodox recognize that Peter is the Rock spoken of in Matthew 16:18, but where we Catholics differ is in what exactly is Peter (and his rightful successors's) role is. For me, I see the Pope as kind of a mouthpiece. When the Church needs to make a statement to the world, the Pope is the guy to get the message out. He doesn't make the decisions himself, but merely is the figurehead of the Church as a whole.
For a more detailed Catholic POV, with Scripture I'd recommend the following links:
Peter and the Papacy
Papal Infallibility
Peter the Rock
Now obviously I don't expect people to immediately agree with everything in those links, I know it took me a while to really come to accept it myself. But I would like to at least show that there is Scriptural support for the role of the Pope in Christ's Church.
For a more detailed Catholic POV, with Scripture I'd recommend the following links:
Peter and the Papacy
Papal Infallibility
Peter the Rock
Now obviously I don't expect people to immediately agree with everything in those links, I know it took me a while to really come to accept it myself. But I would like to at least show that there is Scriptural support for the role of the Pope in Christ's Church.
Z
There is sin, even in the Church. That is true. St. Peter sinned, and he was a rock of the Church.
Christ draws men through faith. He doesn't prevent them from believing.
as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day." (Romans 11:18)
The point is that the world doesn't want to believe in the first place, so Christ is not "preventing" them from anything.
Christ does draw all men to Himself. If anyone comes to Christ, it is Christ's grace from beginning to finish, until the end, that people come to believe in Christ (Titus 3:5).
I would disagree with the first sentence, but fully embrace the second. Yes, grace is a gift from God. We don't earn it (for then we could boast).
Christ isn't waiting to draw men to Himself. He is always doing that.
Where does it say that in the Bible?
In a way, He's already drawn and saved His elect (it doesn't matter whether you believe in the doctrine of grace or not to believe this), for He's outside of time. Paul even mentions us being already seated up with Christ and already citizens of Heaven (Ephesians 2:6, Colossians 3:1, Philippians 3:20)
Free will is required. So people do have a part to play in believing.
Well, we do have a will, and that's to reject God. And yes, we do have a part to play in believing in Him...by believing in Him. He doesn't believe for us.
Christ doesn't force people to believe like robots. He shows His mercy to them, and they believe. All of us are people who can believe in Christ. Christ causes no one to remain in sin and fail to repent.
I also agree that the reason we believed in Christ is because He put His grace and mercy on us, for He had mercy on whom He'll have mercy and compassion on whom He'll have compassion.
Christ also, I would agree, doesn't force us to believe like robots (of course, He could if He wanted to, but that's not His nature). He does put His grace upon us, however, and saves us out of this world to His own good pleasure.
Doesn't the Bible say God gives people over to their deceitful passions?
Obviously Christ does allow some to remain in sin and fail to repent. Otherwise, the whole world would be believing in Him (and I know you don't accept Universalism).
Now, think of this.
If you believe that you believed in Christ because of your own doing...well, that's to your own credit (Of course you are ultimately saved because of Christ. We both are.)
But imagine if Christ truly has elected, unconditionally, people from before the foundation of the world to be His flock. Imagine if He saves us out of this world this way..
ISN'T THAT AMAZING! And yet, oh so humbling?
He chose an unworthy maggot of a sinner to be saved from before the foundation of the world. Not because of my own doing, but because of His great love, His love on the cross.
I have nothing to my credit. Everyday I sin, and one of the greatest sins (not that He didn't die for every single one, no matter how "minor") is not acknowledging in every waking moment that He chose me out of the world to be God's child, to be a servant to Him, to be a soldier to Him, to be in His flock...He chose me, and I'll never know why. I don't deserve it, and never will...but I've been made righteous in the eyes of our Father through the cross.
This. Is. Glorious.
Praise God and the Lamb forever and ever!!! Amen.
Grace and Love
Actually, it's horrifying to me.
The idea that Our Lord selected just a few to be saved is something contrary to the Scriptures. God wills that ALL men be saved. He doesn't will just a few to be saved, or just the elect to be saved. He wants us all to be saved. We can choose to reject salvation, and He will respect our choice, though it breaks His ever merciful heart. But the idea that He chooses some and not others is a truly horrifying idea to me.
Z
If you take 1 Timothy 2:4 out of context as a proof text then yes, it does say that He draws all men.
I believe it's saying all kinds of men from the context.
It just seems odd that He'll be mourning forever because created beings made in His image are in Hell for an eternity...that doesn't sound like the God I know.
Please though, to everyone who reads this, this is a child-to-child of God discussion. I don't believe you have to believe in the doctrines of grace to be saved. But I do believe they help you to know a bit more about God and who He is, even though we can't know everything about Him here.
In fact, I could be wrong. I use to be an opponent of Calvinism, but now I support the doctrines of grace.
Maybe in the coming years it will be switched back around again...but I doubt it. I believe in an all Sovereign God who is mighty to save, to save His flock whom He chose before the foundation of the world. And we are them, many of us on here.
Grace and Love
I believe it's saying all kinds of men from the context.
It just seems odd that He'll be mourning forever because created beings made in His image are in Hell for an eternity...that doesn't sound like the God I know.
Please though, to everyone who reads this, this is a child-to-child of God discussion. I don't believe you have to believe in the doctrines of grace to be saved. But I do believe they help you to know a bit more about God and who He is, even though we can't know everything about Him here.
In fact, I could be wrong. I use to be an opponent of Calvinism, but now I support the doctrines of grace.
Maybe in the coming years it will be switched back around again...but I doubt it. I believe in an all Sovereign God who is mighty to save, to save His flock whom He chose before the foundation of the world. And we are them, many of us on here.
Grace and Love
S
Thats a rather long cut and paste list. Would you care to provide us with your own thoughts on an issue in your own writing rather than use someone else's.
Now the last list is something I would like to call attention to, there are a few things.
1. It gets it's dates wrong frequently
2. It contradicts itself.
3. It has some demonstrably wrong assertions like "Ave Maria: 1508". When the Ave or Hail Mary had been prayed for more than a thousand years before that time. Same thing for others like Mother of God, the Deuterocanon, the Rosary, the sign of the cross, the veneration of Saints and Mary, the Mass, and so on.
Now the last list is something I would like to call attention to, there are a few things.
1. It gets it's dates wrong frequently
2. It contradicts itself.
3. It has some demonstrably wrong assertions like "Ave Maria: 1508". When the Ave or Hail Mary had been prayed for more than a thousand years before that time. Same thing for others like Mother of God, the Deuterocanon, the Rosary, the sign of the cross, the veneration of Saints and Mary, the Mass, and so on.
C
Santo, brother you hold decrees up from councils then turn around and say "long cut and paste list. If you had taken the time to know Katie you would have learnt that her husband and her though both Christian have differing points on it, whole Catholic / Protestant debate. They both have researched in depth and she continues to do so, Kate is strong her her beliefs and to tell Im impressed by her "cut and paste". All you say is go check that councils decree or even "cut and paste" parts of it. Augustine says this , Jerome says this, come on brother but to open your post with "rather long cut and paste list". If you are to challenge on being factual submit your. "long list of cut and paste" to be fair, not demeaning. Just because you say it is or isn't don't mean it's so. That's what a debate is, not a spanish inquisition.
Lord have mercy on us all
Lord have mercy on us all
What matters is that we acknowledge that we live in a fallen world and that Jesus is our Lord and Savior. We must follow the Word and the truth found in the Word. We worship Him in spirit and in truth.
If ANYTHING differs from the ONLY doctrine found in the Word, we cast it away and turn away from it. The one doctrine we need is not created by man, but by the Word. Remember, the traditions of man make the Word of no effect. Every doctrine of man that differs from the Word is invalid and if you follow that false teacher and are overcome by this false doctrine you are bound to that false teacher's judgment. This is why it is important to discern the Word with the Holy Spirit.
1 Corinthians 1:10 (NKJV)
Sectarianism Is Sin
10 Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
With the Holy Spirit guiding us there should be no division among the meaning of the Word. Having different denominations only further following the tradition of man. In all things we follow the Berean example and use the Word to ascertain if it is pleasing to God.. and ask the Holy Spirit. Nothing added to the Bible either as we can see here:
Revelation 22:18-19
New King James Version (NKJV)
A Warning
18 For[a] I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add[b] to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away[c] his part from the Book[d] of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
No matter what denomination you are, if you go back to the Word you will be able to see where man had added their own doctrine to the Word. As followers of Jesus, it is our responsibility to find the truth, and where there are discrepancies, we cast away that which does not line up with the Word of God. If you follow a teacher who is giving you false doctrine you have to let them know where they are going off, and if they do not change, find a church that truly follows the Word and only the Word of God.
If ANYTHING differs from the ONLY doctrine found in the Word, we cast it away and turn away from it. The one doctrine we need is not created by man, but by the Word. Remember, the traditions of man make the Word of no effect. Every doctrine of man that differs from the Word is invalid and if you follow that false teacher and are overcome by this false doctrine you are bound to that false teacher's judgment. This is why it is important to discern the Word with the Holy Spirit.
1 Corinthians 1:10 (NKJV)
Sectarianism Is Sin
10 Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
With the Holy Spirit guiding us there should be no division among the meaning of the Word. Having different denominations only further following the tradition of man. In all things we follow the Berean example and use the Word to ascertain if it is pleasing to God.. and ask the Holy Spirit. Nothing added to the Bible either as we can see here:
Revelation 22:18-19
New King James Version (NKJV)
A Warning
18 For[a] I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add[b] to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away[c] his part from the Book[d] of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
No matter what denomination you are, if you go back to the Word you will be able to see where man had added their own doctrine to the Word. As followers of Jesus, it is our responsibility to find the truth, and where there are discrepancies, we cast away that which does not line up with the Word of God. If you follow a teacher who is giving you false doctrine you have to let them know where they are going off, and if they do not change, find a church that truly follows the Word and only the Word of God.
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A
We all know that catholocism is wrong by the virture of it being catholocism and wrong (I mean do you need any other proof) Protestants are the only ones who have the truth and we are quite willing to share that truth with anybody who needs the truth so long as they meet our standards for receiving the truth (No I will not tell you what those are because if you need to ask then you probably aren't worthy of the truth anyways). So there you have it. Catholics wrong, Protestants right end of story