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I've followed this debate for much of it. I will comment now.
Most of this thread has been an argument between two sides and very little guidance for the OP. I suspect that she will continue in this sinful relationship for the foreseeable future. I pray that she and her sir will seek counseling from a qualified Christian counselor. Nothing we say here will resolve the deep seated problems in her relationship.
Rather than criticize the persons belief, or argue amongst ourselves about what is right or wrong, guide the person with the problematic belief to a correct scriptural.
Most of this thread has been an argument between two sides and very little guidance for the OP. I suspect that she will continue in this sinful relationship for the foreseeable future. I pray that she and her sir will seek counseling from a qualified Christian counselor. Nothing we say here will resolve the deep seated problems in her relationship.
Rather than criticize the persons belief, or argue amongst ourselves about what is right or wrong, guide the person with the problematic belief to a correct scriptural.
S
Finally, I'll jump in.
The bible leaves no room for personal interpretation - it says so itself.
1 Peter 1:20
[SUP]20 [/SUP]knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
Stick around, you might learn something - just don't use loaded terms like master. It freaks some of us out. I personally am fine with being the spiritual head of a household, but I'd never want to be called master. I wouldn't even like "husband" - some sort of term of endearment or just my first name would be all I'd want.
E
well, since the updates are still downloading, I came back and thought I would address this
I know I didn't call any man vile nor did Mary that I am aware of
Is discussing how some men treat women lumping all men together? I am married to a man and hung out with more boys then girls growing up...I like men generally but dear me, I rather fancy myself their equal
The irony is how you can interpret the last page or two of posts as bashing men...we were applying the fact that the op is into bondage and pain for pleasure, so how you can see that as men bashing is beyond the pale
did you miss the part where the op thinks everything is la dee dah because she is submissive? hint hint...into bondage...and calls her 'husband' master?
I don't find your post justifiable...I believe the concept of using the Bible for behavior that exemplifies an un-godly attitude is what was actually being discussed
if you see myself or Mary bashing men, I don't know what to say because I honestly don't know how you could see that
I actually stated that I see everyone as a person first, gender second....at any rate, women have suffered alot for the belief that submission means a little lower than the family dog...I've known a few of them and thankfully, I did not grow up under that
I'm not going back and forth with you on this...you may not even want to...I don't know...I know I didn't bash men in general
Seems like you had a really decent father. Praise God for that. I didn't grow up with a father. I have 3 brothers, several uncles and plenty of male cousins, so I did have father figures, but I always like to hear testimonies about people who had really decent fathers who took an active role in their upbringing and training. Good testimony.
That's a wonderful testimony about your dad. Like I said to Ember, I didn't grow up with a father, so I always rejoice and praise God when I hear testimonies like this.
I agree with what you said about some men thinking that they are superior and women are inferior. However, that's why I really admire the way your father treated the women in his circle and the example he set. God knows the world needs more men and fathers like that.
I agree with what you said about some men thinking that they are superior and women are inferior. However, that's why I really admire the way your father treated the women in his circle and the example he set. God knows the world needs more men and fathers like that.
Sarah called Abraham lord or master depending on the translation. 1 Pet 3:1-6
Some men will gladly acknowledge and accept a husband being called master/lord by his wife, and many people will mention Sarah and quote 1 Pe 3:1-6 to support that. However, I rarely ever see or hear the following verses come up in a discussion about a husband's mastership over his wife:
Husbands are instructed to love their wives like Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her (Ep 5:25). How did Christ demonstrate his love for the church in addition to dying for her?
1.) In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross! 2 Phil 5-8
Christ made himself a servant (doulos, Strong's 1401) - bond-servant, bond-slave, slave. Why? Because He prioritized the church's needs above his own divine privilege and equality with God. However, I don't hear too many men talking about the how Jesus made himself a slave for the church and how husbands should make themselves slaves for their wives because that's what Jesus did.
2.) I no longer call you slaves, because a slave does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. John 15:15
Jesus made himself a slave for the church. Jesus also stopped referring to his bride, the church, as slave and called her friend instead. However, I generally don't hear the men who are so eager to accept and acknowledge their mastership over their wives talking about how husbands should refer to their wives as friends instead of slaves because that's how Jesus treated his bride - the church.
3.) A wife is not the master of her own body, but her husband is; in the same way a husband is not the master of his own body, but his wife is. 1 Cor 7:4 (GNT)
Mastership in marriage is mutual to some extent. The word that usually gets translated authority in 1 Cor 7:4 is exousiazó (Strong's 1850) and it means to be master of anyone, exercise authority over one. Yeah, but I certainly haven't heard any of the men who so eagerly proclaim their mastership over their wives bragging about how a wife is the master of her husband's body.
For example, the OP calls her husband Master with a capital M, but I wonder if her husband joyfully acknowledges and verbalizes that she is the master of his body.
Some men will gladly acknowledge and accept a husband being called master/lord by his wife, and many people will mention Sarah and quote 1 Pe 3:1-6 to support that. However, I rarely ever see or hear the following verses come up in a discussion about a husband's mastership over his wife:
Husbands are instructed to love their wives like Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her (Ep 5:25). How did Christ demonstrate his love for the church in addition to dying for her?
1.) In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross! 2 Phil 5-8
Christ made himself a servant (doulos, Strong's 1401) - bond-servant, bond-slave, slave. Why? Because He prioritized the church's needs above his own divine privilege and equality with God. However, I don't hear too many men talking about the how Jesus made himself a slave for the church and how husbands should make themselves slaves for their wives because that's what Jesus did.
2.) I no longer call you slaves, because a slave does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. John 15:15
Jesus made himself a slave for the church. Jesus also stopped referring to his bride, the church, as slave and called her friend instead. However, I generally don't hear the men who are so eager to accept and acknowledge their mastership over their wives talking about how husbands should refer to their wives as friends instead of slaves because that's how Jesus treated his bride - the church.
3.) A wife is not the master of her own body, but her husband is; in the same way a husband is not the master of his own body, but his wife is. 1 Cor 7:4 (GNT)
Mastership in marriage is mutual to some extent. The word that usually gets translated authority in 1 Cor 7:4 is exousiazó (Strong's 1850) and it means to be master of anyone, exercise authority over one. Yeah, but I certainly haven't heard any of the men who so eagerly proclaim their mastership over their wives bragging about how a wife is the master of her husband's body.
For example, the OP calls her husband Master with a capital M, but I wonder if her husband joyfully acknowledges and verbalizes that she is the master of his body.
P
God's kingdom is just that:
A kingdom.
His kingdom has delegated authority within it and a husband has definitely been delegated by God to be the head of his household, but he is also called to be under the headship of Christ himself. In other words, every Christian husband is also a bride in the sense that he is espoused to Christ the Bridegroom, spiritually speaking, so he must actually first practice being submissive to his own head which is Christ before attempting to be the head over his own wife. If such isn't truly the case, then some sort of abuse is pretty much inevitable. Quite frankly, if I had been given the option and I wasn't, then I would have preferred to have been born a woman in the sense that I would ultimately be held less accountable on the day of judgment. As it presently stands, I'm accountable as both a bride to Christ and a husband to my wife and that's pretty scary.
As I said in a previous post, to me, authority isn't about domination, but rather about accountability. As Jesus said, to whom much is given, much is required.
A kingdom.
His kingdom has delegated authority within it and a husband has definitely been delegated by God to be the head of his household, but he is also called to be under the headship of Christ himself. In other words, every Christian husband is also a bride in the sense that he is espoused to Christ the Bridegroom, spiritually speaking, so he must actually first practice being submissive to his own head which is Christ before attempting to be the head over his own wife. If such isn't truly the case, then some sort of abuse is pretty much inevitable. Quite frankly, if I had been given the option and I wasn't, then I would have preferred to have been born a woman in the sense that I would ultimately be held less accountable on the day of judgment. As it presently stands, I'm accountable as both a bride to Christ and a husband to my wife and that's pretty scary.
As I said in a previous post, to me, authority isn't about domination, but rather about accountability. As Jesus said, to whom much is given, much is required.
P
@WolfGaming.
Incidentally, I'm sorry that some posters here have felt it necessary to mention your age as if wisdom is somehow determined by how old someone is. It isn't.
Job chapter 32 verses 4 thru 9
Now Elihu had waited till Job had spoken, because they were elder than he.
When Elihu saw that there was no answer in the mouth of these three men, then his wrath was kindled.
And Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite answered and said, I am young, and ye are very old; wherefore I was afraid, and durst not shew you mine opinion.
I said, Days should speak, and multitude of years should teach wisdom.
But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.
Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgment.
Incidentally, I'm sorry that some posters here have felt it necessary to mention your age as if wisdom is somehow determined by how old someone is. It isn't.
Job chapter 32 verses 4 thru 9
Now Elihu had waited till Job had spoken, because they were elder than he.
When Elihu saw that there was no answer in the mouth of these three men, then his wrath was kindled.
And Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite answered and said, I am young, and ye are very old; wherefore I was afraid, and durst not shew you mine opinion.
I said, Days should speak, and multitude of years should teach wisdom.
But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.
Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgment.
I appreciate your point, and see much wisdom in it. It is quite apparent that you strive to be the Head of household God intended when Ephesians 5:22-24 were written. I know it probably is a daily struggle to strive to what Christ has asked of you, and I applaud your efforts.
I never understand how many women respond to those verses. Like it is a type of bondage to be placed under the authority of your husband. Maybe it has to do with their experiences with men who didn't properly understand their realm of power and overstepped their bounds. With that being said, I think God places even more restrictions on men than he does women in verses 25-28 of the same chapter. When asked to love their wives as Christ loved the Church, they are asked to lay everything, and I mean everything down for the sake of their wife and family. I agree that it would be terrifying. And I commend men who take this on and work hard to be the man that God intended them to be.
I never understand how many women respond to those verses. Like it is a type of bondage to be placed under the authority of your husband. Maybe it has to do with their experiences with men who didn't properly understand their realm of power and overstepped their bounds. With that being said, I think God places even more restrictions on men than he does women in verses 25-28 of the same chapter. When asked to love their wives as Christ loved the Church, they are asked to lay everything, and I mean everything down for the sake of their wife and family. I agree that it would be terrifying. And I commend men who take this on and work hard to be the man that God intended them to be.
P
Hi blondensmart.
That there have been many abuses within marriages throughout the ages is a given, but I believe that although I Peter chapter 3 verses 1 thru 6 has been brought up here several times already it is highly probable that our focus thus far has been upon the wrong word. In other words, a lot has been said about the word lord and how Sarah referred to her own husband Abraham by such a title, but I personally believe that the single most important word in the text is found in the very first word of our text:
LIKEWISE.
Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.
Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
In the verses which immediately precede these verses, I Peter chapter 2 verses 18 thru 25, Peter addressed how servants are to deal with abusive masters or with those who are far from being good and gentle and who buffet them for doing well and how Christ our ultimate example dealt with the many revilings and sufferings which came his way. The abused servant was instructed to endure grief while suffering wrongfully with a conscience towards God Who has actually called us unto suffering and told that such a mindset was both thankworthy and acceptable with God. This conscience towards God is the key in that it is the very means by which Christ Himself overcame. Yes, when Christ was reviled, He reviled not again and when He suffered, He threatened not but committed Himself to Him that judges righteously or He maintained His Own conscience towards God. Is this what people are doing today? In most cases, I'd have to say no. Instead of keeping our focuses upon God and seeking to do that which is pleasing in His sight in spite of how others mistreat us, most people seem to be self-centered and start belly-aching all over the place. When Jesus said that the first prerequisite to following Him was to deny ourselves, He wasn't joking. As I said in an earlier response, dead people don't get frustrated or hurt. We're all called to do the will of God and when it comes to the topic of marriage a husband is called to lay down his life for his wife in the same manner in which Christ laid down His life for the church, whether or not she ever appreciates the same or fulfills her own role as his wife, and a wife is called to submit to and reverence her husband as the church is called to submit to and reverence Christ. Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that a wife should ever follow the lead of a husband who admonishes her to do something sinful, but even in the cases of froward husbands, wives are called to seek to win the same without the word or without preaching to them, but instead by maintaining their own chaste behaviors before both the Lord and their husbands coupled with fear as in the fear of God. Ultimately, we're all going to be held accountable for what we've done and not for how others have treated or mistreated us, so we really all need to set our sights upon fulfilling what God has called us to do in spite of what others may or may not do. I hope that this makes sense.
That there have been many abuses within marriages throughout the ages is a given, but I believe that although I Peter chapter 3 verses 1 thru 6 has been brought up here several times already it is highly probable that our focus thus far has been upon the wrong word. In other words, a lot has been said about the word lord and how Sarah referred to her own husband Abraham by such a title, but I personally believe that the single most important word in the text is found in the very first word of our text:
LIKEWISE.
Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.
Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
In the verses which immediately precede these verses, I Peter chapter 2 verses 18 thru 25, Peter addressed how servants are to deal with abusive masters or with those who are far from being good and gentle and who buffet them for doing well and how Christ our ultimate example dealt with the many revilings and sufferings which came his way. The abused servant was instructed to endure grief while suffering wrongfully with a conscience towards God Who has actually called us unto suffering and told that such a mindset was both thankworthy and acceptable with God. This conscience towards God is the key in that it is the very means by which Christ Himself overcame. Yes, when Christ was reviled, He reviled not again and when He suffered, He threatened not but committed Himself to Him that judges righteously or He maintained His Own conscience towards God. Is this what people are doing today? In most cases, I'd have to say no. Instead of keeping our focuses upon God and seeking to do that which is pleasing in His sight in spite of how others mistreat us, most people seem to be self-centered and start belly-aching all over the place. When Jesus said that the first prerequisite to following Him was to deny ourselves, He wasn't joking. As I said in an earlier response, dead people don't get frustrated or hurt. We're all called to do the will of God and when it comes to the topic of marriage a husband is called to lay down his life for his wife in the same manner in which Christ laid down His life for the church, whether or not she ever appreciates the same or fulfills her own role as his wife, and a wife is called to submit to and reverence her husband as the church is called to submit to and reverence Christ. Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that a wife should ever follow the lead of a husband who admonishes her to do something sinful, but even in the cases of froward husbands, wives are called to seek to win the same without the word or without preaching to them, but instead by maintaining their own chaste behaviors before both the Lord and their husbands coupled with fear as in the fear of God. Ultimately, we're all going to be held accountable for what we've done and not for how others have treated or mistreated us, so we really all need to set our sights upon fulfilling what God has called us to do in spite of what others may or may not do. I hope that this makes sense.