Two US TV journalists shot dead on air
- Thread starter royalscot
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K
Well I don't always agree with royalscot, but I think what he is referring to is the fact that Lord Jesus said we are to show Love, Mercy, and Forgiveness to all men not just the victims.
Believers want to say we are not under the law now days but they seem to still want to stick to parts of it, even though the Lord spoke against those parts and said, "I tell you no."
Believers want to say we are not under the law now days but they seem to still want to stick to parts of it, even though the Lord spoke against those parts and said, "I tell you no."
K
Love and mercy,forgivness do not change justice.Could God have forgiven him had he asked? Yes.But he did not.He took two innocent lives.Do you not think there should be justice? We have an easy gospel now days that says God is love and ends there.That is not so.God is the righteous judge and the shedding of innocent blood he takes very seriously.People want to believe in the NT God,full of love and thats all. I dont hate the murderer,but I am righteously indignant that he selfishly murdered two people in cold blood.He chose his path,he is in hell today. God offered mercy and forgiveness but he rejected it and was given over to a reprobate mind. Satan filled his heart and mind and he murdered.He chose this path.So no,there is no forgiveness now.I believe the Ten Commandments are as relevant today as OT times.Thou shalt not commit murder still holds true.If you take a life you give up your own.
V
Was God in control? Of course! God is always in control. Could it have turned out differently? Of course, it could have! People could have been more Christ-like. Nevertheless, God is still in control. God knew how it would play out, how could He not?
Shall we blame God for the outcome? Is it God’s fault that Flanagan lost his mind and self-destructed?
Remember how when Jesus and his disciples were in the region of the Gerasenes and there met up with a demon-possessed man? It’s said that they couldn’t even hold the man in chains he was so powerfully demonic. They chased him out of the city instead and he lived in the tombs crying and screaming and cutting himself with rocks. What a life, huh? What a horrific way to exist.
Jesus had compassion on the man and healed him. Do you remember the reaction of the people in the surrounding area? They told Jesus to leave and get away from them. They were afraid of Jesus because they didn’t understand how or why He healed that insane man. It never occurred to them that the demoniac had great value to God. The Father loved him!
If we read through all the comments posted in this thread, how many look like Jesus’ love and compassion? How many of us would rather just tell Jesus to get out of this thread and leave us alone, that our judgment against Flanagan is right?
I’m honestly shocked to see that Omni isn’t listed as a Christian in his profile. He doesn’t exhibit self-righteousness or hatred or prejudice, but instead shows compassion and reasoning with wisdom. I’m glad God sent Omni to this site.
The plan and purpose of our Father was that He should dwell in us, conforming us into the image of Jesus Christ that the lost world might be drawn to Him and be saved. That’s it. God did His part. All He asks us to do is rest in Him and be pliable in His hands so that He can perform through us the works of Jesus Christ. But if we judge everything by our own human understanding, and we don't rely on the Lord's understanding, it can turn out differently. God is still accomplishing what He's set out to do. We're just making it more difficult for ourselves when we're flowing against that plan.
Shall we blame God for the outcome? Is it God’s fault that Flanagan lost his mind and self-destructed?
Remember how when Jesus and his disciples were in the region of the Gerasenes and there met up with a demon-possessed man? It’s said that they couldn’t even hold the man in chains he was so powerfully demonic. They chased him out of the city instead and he lived in the tombs crying and screaming and cutting himself with rocks. What a life, huh? What a horrific way to exist.
Jesus had compassion on the man and healed him. Do you remember the reaction of the people in the surrounding area? They told Jesus to leave and get away from them. They were afraid of Jesus because they didn’t understand how or why He healed that insane man. It never occurred to them that the demoniac had great value to God. The Father loved him!
If we read through all the comments posted in this thread, how many look like Jesus’ love and compassion? How many of us would rather just tell Jesus to get out of this thread and leave us alone, that our judgment against Flanagan is right?
I’m honestly shocked to see that Omni isn’t listed as a Christian in his profile. He doesn’t exhibit self-righteousness or hatred or prejudice, but instead shows compassion and reasoning with wisdom. I’m glad God sent Omni to this site.
The plan and purpose of our Father was that He should dwell in us, conforming us into the image of Jesus Christ that the lost world might be drawn to Him and be saved. That’s it. God did His part. All He asks us to do is rest in Him and be pliable in His hands so that He can perform through us the works of Jesus Christ. But if we judge everything by our own human understanding, and we don't rely on the Lord's understanding, it can turn out differently. God is still accomplishing what He's set out to do. We're just making it more difficult for ourselves when we're flowing against that plan.
K
We are commanded to show that same love, mercy, and forgiveness to others He has shown us.
Yes I believe in justice as in putting one in prison for life for murder, but the putting one to death for killing another is a OT ordinance and not a new testament command to be followed. Lord Jesus said no to this ordinance in Matthew 5:38-39, as well as others that He changed or expounded on.
The three components that Jesus tells us our faith in Him hangs on is love, mercy, and forgiveness.
We are to leave vengeance up to Him now and not repay evil for evil, and we are also shown to obey the laws of the land unless they contradict His teachings and commands. What we are to go by is the new covenant standards and not the old covenant letter of the law.
Yes I believe in justice as in putting one in prison for life for murder, but the putting one to death for killing another is a OT ordinance and not a new testament command to be followed. Lord Jesus said no to this ordinance in Matthew 5:38-39, as well as others that He changed or expounded on.
The three components that Jesus tells us our faith in Him hangs on is love, mercy, and forgiveness.
We are to leave vengeance up to Him now and not repay evil for evil, and we are also shown to obey the laws of the land unless they contradict His teachings and commands. What we are to go by is the new covenant standards and not the old covenant letter of the law.
K
Wow wow wow Miss Violent I have always respected your opinion but are you telling me Im " self-righteousness or hatred or prejudice"? Thats quite a judgment !!! I said in a previous thread I do not hate the shooter,I dont know him,how could I hate him. Self righteousness? To say that the murderer rejected God and took his own path and is in hell today because of his own choices? That is self righteous?! I dont even know how you bring prejudice into it at all. Wow! Very disappointed in your response.
As I said in another post "could God forgive him had he asked?" Yes! But he chose to follow his own selfish path. God knowing this would happen does not mean it was his will. God allowing and God willing are two different things.The murderer had a choice,he chose the path that lead to his death.Im not judging according to my understanding,in fact not judging at all.Im stating a fact,murder is wrong according to the Bible. Had the murderer come to God,yes he could have healed all his issues but he did not.His heart was filled with evil and he did an evil thing.It astounds me that Christians seem to feel everyone is saved whether they repent of sin or not.Today we have made grace cheap.There were two men on crosses beside Jesus.One knew he was a hopeless sinner and he admitted it and was saved.But what of the other? He died in his sin.As did this murderer.Is it a pity,is it sad? Yes,but he had free will.Now justice demands a price because he did not trust in Jesus to pay the price.
Its sad that he took his own life,that he took the path he did.But I am glad he ended it without killing a cop.Im glad he wont be let out of jail to kill again.Clearly he killed with intent and then bragged about doing so.He was given over to a reprobate mind.Free choice, God cannot make anyone serve him.And because the blood was not applied then comes judgement.Not my judgment but His. Sin leads to death,the murderer found that out for himself. Sad that he selfishly chose to live the life he did.
S
I believe the more appropriate expression here is "eye for eye, tooth for tooth." It's hardly evil to pursue justice.
Why are we investing so much time and thought into going back and forth about this tragedy, though? We're warned of idle talk. Shouldn't we invest more energy into praying for the victims and their loved ones?
Why are we investing so much time and thought into going back and forth about this tragedy, though? We're warned of idle talk. Shouldn't we invest more energy into praying for the victims and their loved ones?
K
I'll post the following not just to you but for the whole thread to understand where I am coming from and what I believe...
Excerpts are from the Apologetics Press,its too long to post it all so I will try and break it up in parts.
Very early in human history, God decreed that murderers were to forfeit their own lives: “Whoever sheds man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he the man” (Genesis 9:6). Capital punishment was written into God’s will for the Jewish nation in the Old Testament. The death penalty was a viable form of punishment for at least sixteen separate offenses. Some people have misunderstood one of the Ten Commandments which says, “You shall not kill” (Exodus 20:13). They have assumed that the law forbade taking human life under any circumstances. But God required the death penalty for some sixteen crimes. Therefore, the commandment would have been better translated, “You shall not murder.” In other words, the command was a prohibition against an individual taking the law into his own hands and exercising personal vengeance. But God wanted the execution of law breakers to be carried out by duly constituted legal authorities.
Moving to the New Testament, which reveals God’s will this side of the cross, the matter of capital punishment is treated virtually the same. The New Testament clearly teaches that capital punishment is God’s will for human civilization. Consider, for example, Romans 13:1-4.
Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
This passage clearly affirms that the state—civil government—has the God-ordained responsibility to keep law and order, and to protect its citizens against evildoers. The word “sword” in this passage refers to capital punishment. God wants duly constituted civil authority to invoke the death penalty upon citizens who commit crimes worthy of death.For about the last thirty years, Americans have actually witnessed a breakdown on the part of judicial and law enforcement system. In most cases, the government has failed to “bear the sword.” Instead, the prison system has been overrun with incorrigible criminals. Premature parole and early release has become commonplace in order to make room for the increasing number of lawbreakers.
The apostle Paul, himself, articulated the correct attitude when he stood before Porcius Festus and defended his actions by stating, “If I am an offender, or have committed anything worthy of death, I do not object to dying” (Acts 25:11). Paul was acknowledging that the state properly possesses the power of life and death in the administration of civil justice.
Peter held the same position as that of Paul. He enjoined obedience to the government that has been sent by God “for the punishment of evildoers” (1 Peter 2:14; cf. Titus 3:1). Jesus implied the propriety of capital punishment when He told the Parable of the Pounds. Those who rebelled against the king were to be brought and executed in his presence (Luke 19:27). Compare that parable with the one He told about the wicked husbandmen in Luke 20:15-16 in which He indicated that the owner of the vineyard would return and destroy the husbandmen.
Those who oppose capital punishment raise a variety of objections to its legitimacy. For example, someone might raise the question: “Did not Jesus teach that we should turn the other cheek?” Yes, He did, in Matthew 5:39. But in that context, He was impressing upon the Jews their need not to engage in personal vendettas. The same point is stressed in Romans 12:14-21. Paul said, “Repay no one evil for evil” and “do not avenge yourselves.” In other words, Christians are not to take the law into their own hands and engage in vengeful retaliation. God insists that vengeance belongs to HimNotice, however, that Romans 13 picks right up where Romans 12 leaves off and shows how God takes vengeance. He employs civil government as the instrumentality for imposing the death penalty. So, individual citizens are not to engage in vigilante tactics. God wants the legal authorities to punish criminals, and thereby protect the rest of society..
An objection that has been raised in an effort to challenge the propriety of capital punishment is the insistence by some that the death penalty serves no useful purpose—especially when it comes to deterring other criminals from their course of action. Opponents insist, “capital punishment is not a deterrent to crime.” This kind of humanistic, uninformed thinking has held sway for some 30+ years. It might be believable if it were not for the inspired Word of God informing to the contrary.
Even if capital punishment did not serve as a deterrent, it still would serve at least one other worthwhile purpose: the elimination from society of those elements that persist in destructive behavior. The Bible teaches that some people can be hardened into a sinful, wicked condition. They have become so cold, cruel, and mean that even the threat of death does not phase them. Paul referred to those whose consciences had been “seared with a hot iron” (1 Timothy 4:2). Some people are so hardened that they are described as “past feeling” and completely given over to wickedness (Ephesians 4:19). God invoked the death penalty upon an entire generation because their wickedness was “great in the earth” and “every imagination of the thoughts of [their] heart was only evil continually” (Genesis 6:5).
So the human heart and mind can become so alienated from right, good, and truth that a person can be unreachable, incorrigible, and irretrievable. The death penalty would spare law-abiding citizens any further perpetration of death and suffering by those who engage in such repetitive actions. How horrible and senseless it is that so many Americans have had to suffer terribly at the hands of criminals who already have been found guilty of previous crimes, but who were permitted to go free and repeat their criminal behavior!
So even if capital punishment was not a deterrent, it is still a necessary option in society. It holds in check the growth and spread of hardened criminals. A careful study is warranted of the expression “so you shall put away the evil from your midst” (Deuteronomy 13:5; 17:7; 19:19; 21:21; 22:21; 1 Corinthians 5:13).
But the Bible clearly teaches that the application of penal punishment, including the death penalty, is, in fact, a deterrent. For example, God wanted the death penalty imposed upon any individual, including one’s relative, who attempted secretly to entice others into idolatry. Such a person was to be stoned to death in the presence of the entire nation with this resulting effect: “So all Israel shall hear and fear, and not again do such wickedness as this among you” (Deuteronomy 13:11).
Paul emphasized that elders in the church who sinned were to be rebuked publicly “that others also may fear” (1 Timothy 5:20). Ananias and Sapphira, a Christian couple in the early church, were divinely executed in Acts 5, and in the very next verse Luke wrote: “So great fear came upon all the church and upon all who heard these things” (Acts 5:11). These passages prove that a direct link exists between punishment and execution on the one hand, and the caution that it instills in others on the other hand.
The Bible teaches the corollary of this principle as well. Where there is inadequate, insufficient and delayed punishment, crime and violence increase. Notice Ecclesiastes 8:11—“Because the sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.” This very phenomenon is occurring even now in America.
The court system is clogged and backed up to the point that many cases do not come to trial for literally years. Criminals who have been shown to be guilty of multiple murders and other heinous crimes are given light sentences, while those who deserve far less are given exorbitant sentences. A mockery of the justice system has resulted.
If the Bible is to be believed, capital punishment is, indeed, a deterrent to criminal behavior. The elimination of hardened criminals is necessary if societies are to survive. The liberal, humanistic values that have held sway in America for the last 40 years are taking their toll, and getting back to God’s view of things is the only hope if the nation is to survive.
A fourth quibble that someone might raise is that capital punishment appears to be a rather extreme step to take since it is as cruel, barbaric, and violent as the action committed by the criminal himself. Is it not the case that capital punishment is resorting to the same kind of behavior as the criminal? May capital punishment be viewed as a vindictive retaliation? The biblical response to this question is seen in the oft’-repeated phrases: “his blood be upon him” (Leviticus 20:9,13,27; Deuteronomy 19:10; Ezekiel 18:13; 33:5) and “his blood be upon his own head” (Joshua 2:19; 2 Samuel 1:16; Ezekiel 33:4; Acts 18:6).
Those who carry out the death sentence are, in reality, neutral third parties. They are merely carrying out the will of God in dispensing justice. The criminal is simply receiving what he brought upon himself—his “just desserts.” The expression “his blood be upon him” indicates that God assigns responsibility for the execution to the one being executed. It’s like we tell small children: “If you put your hand in the fire, you’re going to get burned.” There are consequences to our actions. If we do not want to be executed, we should not commit any act that merits death. If we do commit such an act, we have earned the death penalty, and we deserve to get what we have earned. The one who metes out the punishment is not to be blamed or considered responsible for the execution of the guilty.
Rather than oppose those who promote capital punishment, painting them as insensitive ogres or uncaring, callous, uncivilized barbarians, effort would be better spent focusing upon the barbaric behavior of the criminals who rape, plunder, and pillage. It is theirbehavior that should be kept in mind. Tears and compassion ought to center on the innocent victims and their families. Lethal injection of a wicked evildoer hardly can match the violent, inhuman suffering and death experienced by the innocent victims of crime. They continue to suffer, while the perpetrator carries on for many years, many trials, and many appeals before justice is served—if it ever is. The God of the Bible is incensed and outraged at such circumstances. The time has come to start listening to Him as He speaks through His inspired Word.
There is the sum total of what I believe put across much better than I can state it. With Bible references included.Hopefully now I have made myself clear.Its quite amazing to me that people support the murderer more then the victims and have more sympathy for him. smh
P
I haven't been following this conversation, but this caught my eye:
I checked out the referenced post and found:
I read Romans 13 and found: For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong." -- this is only true of good, honest rulers. What about tyrants and evil rulers? What about corrupt governments?
I agree that vengeance is God's and so we must not ever seek revenge -- but I wonder if 'vigilantes' are necessary in presence of a corrupt government. People do eventually overthrow tyranny.
I checked out the referenced post and found:
I read Romans 13 and found: For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong." -- this is only true of good, honest rulers. What about tyrants and evil rulers? What about corrupt governments?
I agree that vengeance is God's and so we must not ever seek revenge -- but I wonder if 'vigilantes' are necessary in presence of a corrupt government. People do eventually overthrow tyranny.
listen to miss pleasantness.
that post was not for you, i was taking about you, not to you, do you know the difference.
What you are saying is against what the Bible teaches.I assume you are Catholic. A person cannot be saved after death,we have to make our choice while still here on earth.(your quote)
if you assume, then how can you, know the difference. when did i become your teacher, again you prove me correct ,
liberal - (of education) concerned with broadening general knowledge and experience
what do you think a parable was.
that post was not for you, i was taking about you, not to you, do you know the difference.
What you are saying is against what the Bible teaches.I assume you are Catholic. A person cannot be saved after death,we have to make our choice while still here on earth.(your quote)
if you assume, then how can you, know the difference. when did i become your teacher, again you prove me correct ,
liberal - (of education) concerned with broadening general knowledge and experience
what do you think a parable was.
K
If you have something to say,have the courage to say it to me not about me.I know the difference and if you were a gentleman you'd conduct yourself differently.I have never said anything against you for you to talk about me and mock me behind my back.According to the Bible one cannot be saved after they die.I assumed you were Catholic because you were espousing that belief.Christians do not believe you can be saved after you die.I'd appreciate if you'd drop the attitude and speak like a man,not a kid in high school. I dont come here for sarcasm and childishness.Make your point without being nasty about it.Thanks
K
No way, my dear. I was saying we as a whole body of Christ should look to Jesus. I did not point at you, my friend. 
Im sorry,Im feeling rather attacked in this thread.I would leave it but I feel so strongly about what I believe.The post I wrote with the excerpts may better explain what I believe.Thank you Miss Violet,I have always had respect for you,I still do.Have a blessed day.
