examples of speaking in tongues - need verification and explanations, please

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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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#81
You mean 1Co 14:19......Absolutely...but in private it is different, to me, 1Corinthians 14:2 explains it:

1Corinthians 14:2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.
oh brother.

THIS ISN'T THAT HARD!







really. i'm sorry, but you can not go in and splice out that verse and force it to be some private prayer language.




For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue - This verse is designed to show that the faculty of speaking intelligibly, and to the edification of the church, is of more value than the power of speaking a foreign language.

The reason is, that however valuable may be the endowment [speaking a foreign language] in itself, and however important the truth which he may utter [while speaking a foreign language], yet it is as if he spoke to God only. No one could understand him

Barnes
 
Sep 8, 2012
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#82
oh brother.

THIS ISN'T THAT HARD!







really. i'm sorry, but you can not go in and splice out that verse and force it to be some private prayer language.




For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue - This verse is designed to show that the faculty of speaking intelligibly, and to the edification of the church, is of more value than the power of speaking a foreign language.

The reason is, that however valuable may be the endowment [speaking a foreign language] in itself, and however important the truth which he may utter [while speaking a foreign language], yet it is as if he spoke to God only. No one could understand him

Barnes
Nice twisting Carol.
That is exactly NOT what Paul said.
Unless he was shooting off at the hip when he penned in the Sacred Word that he spoke tongues more than them all.
I guess he meant he spoke in more foreign languages than them all.
Like it would be a blessing to miraculously start blabbing in various human languages.
Like it would show how holy you were if you could blurt out 15 foreign languages.
Oh, but the Apostle said, "I speak in tongues more than you all".
 
Sep 8, 2012
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#83
Which brings me back to the point:
How does one edify his/her self by speaking in a human language to themselves that they can't understand?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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#84
1Co 14:2: The word "for" is a conjunction connecting 1Co 14:1 and 2. Paul was giving the reason he instructed them to desire prophecy above other spiritual gifts. Speaking in tongues is us communing with God, but prophecy is God speaking through us to man. In the church, we should seek to edify others, not ourselves Prophecy edifies others, while speaking in tongues only edifies the person who is speaking.

How is the discovery journey coming along? Seems like this topic brings up a lot of heat/mixed-emotions.
hi piper,
no, i'm pretty sure speaking in 'tongues' is not us communing with God...not the way ppl claim today.

the ONLY sense in which that is true is exactly the way Paul said it.
if you were one of the disciples who received the miraculous ability to speak a language you had not learned (please see Acts 2, Pentecost) - let's call it French - if there were no French speakers around, Paul said basically:rolleyes::

hey you guys!
i know you are enjoying these miraculous gifts. it's really amazing!

i understand you want to use this gift of speaking French to someone, so you can reveal the mysteries (which are not mysteries to us any more, piper - they are recorded) of the GOSPEL message we all just recieved about the faith once for all, and Jesus is the Messiah and He died for our sins, and it was God's Plan to include gentiles.....BUT

you guys and gals have to smarten up because if you're all trying to speak the Wonderful Works of God but there's no one here who understands French (and no translator), no one will understand you.

they'll think you're crazy.

SO - it's better for you to REMAIN SILENT, communing with God about the mysteries He is revealing to you (they are no longer mysteries, God's Plan has been fully revealed now) in your NEW LANGUAGE of French.

since you know what God revealed to you, and you know it IN FRENCH, you will be edified (built up in your faith), but if you ramble on in French in a room full of German speakers, they will not be edified at all.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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#85
Nice twisting Carol.
That is exactly NOT what Paul said.
Unless he was shooting off at the hip when he penned in the Sacred Word that he spoke tongues more than them all.
I guess he meant he spoke in more foreign languages than them all.
Like it would be a blessing to miraculously start blabbing in various human languages.
Like it would show how holy you were if you could blurt out 15 foreign languages.
Oh, but the Apostle said, "I speak in tongues more than you all".
of course he spoke MORE GENTILE languages than them all - he was an Apostle, and THE Apostle to the gentiles.
gifted; equipped; empowered....more than all of them.

they answered to the Apostles.

are you suggesting he was boasting he spoke more kinds of secret prayer language than them all?
the unknown jabbering kind?
how many kinds are there?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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#86
Those who have decided there is not a type of tongues for prayer will not recognize any of the Holy Scripture teaching it. It is as simple as that. May Yahweh, God help them in their inquisition of the faithful, and save them from attempting to impirically prove Yahweh. It is a matter of prayer for them and for ourselves.
There are only a very few in the forum who vehemently oppose the teaching, but they are verbose about it to the point of ridicule.
or, perhaps.....May God help those who do these things and attribute it to the Holy Spirit.
only one of us is right.

one of is very very wrong.

i'll make my stand where i am.

UNTIL someone shows me consistently that one tongue speaker can understand the other; or that they are doing it when Jews are around.
got Jews from Spain in your prayer closet?

are you speaking Spanish to them?
then i believe you.
 
Feb 21, 2012
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#87
Which brings me back to the point:
How does one edify his/her self by speaking in a human language to themselves that they can't understand?
I guess one would have to ask God since He by revelation to Paul said that when one speaks in an tongue edifies himself. . .

but we could just ignore that verse since we can't understand what we are saying . . . .

or we could speak in a tongue that we don't understand . . . speaking unto God . . . edifying ourselves . . .as scripture says.
 
Sep 8, 2012
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#88
of course he spoke languages than them all - he was an Apostle, and THE Apostle to the gentiles.(So he didn't have interpreters?)

are you suggesting he was boasting he spoke more kinds of secret prayer language than them all?
No.
I'm pointing out that he was telling them not to forbid speaking in their angelic prayer language, after he had just told them it was better to prophecy in the assembly.

how many kinds are there?
One angelic language.
Many creed languages.
God can use someone to speak to someone else in their native tongue.
But this is rare.
Almost as rare as a Lutheran using the gifts of the Spirit.

I'm sorry, I went too far.


 
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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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#89
Please stop this abject denial of what is taught in the Word of the other forms of tongues. It is unbecoming faith.
that is my appeal to you.
and you really ought to repent, and be forgiven.


FIRST, IF THE TONGUES-SPEAKING OF 1 CORINTHIANS 14 IS DIFFERENT FROM THAT OF ACTS 2, THE BIBLE NEVER EXPLAINS THE DIFFERENCE.

We leave “tongues” in the book of Acts (the last mention is in Acts 19:6) and we do not see them again until 1 Corinthians 12-14. If the “tongues” in this epistle is a different type of thing than the “tongues” in Acts, why doesn’t the Bible say so and plainly explain this matter so that there is no confusion?

SECOND, PAUL SAID THE TONGUES SPEAKER EDIFIES HIMSELF (1 Cor. 14:4).

That would not be possible unless the words could be understood, because throughout the fourteenth chapter of 1 Corinthians Paul says that understanding is absolutely necessary for edification. In verse 3 he says that prophesying edifies because it comforts and exhorts men, obviously referring to things that are understood to the hearer. In verse 4 he says that tongues speaking does not edify unless it is interpreted. In verses 16-17 he says that if someone does not understand something he is not edified. Words could not be plainer. If there is no edification of the church without understanding, how is it possible that the individual believer could be edified without understanding? This is confusion. The word “edify” means to build up in the faith. Webster’s 1828 dictionary defined it as “to instruct and improve the mind in knowledge generally, and particularly in moral and religious knowledge, in faith and holiness.” The words “edify,” “edification,” “edified,” and “edifying” are used in 18 verses in the New Testament and always refer to building up in the faith by means of instruction and godly living. For example, in Ephesians 4 the body of Christ is edified through the ministry of God-given preachers (Eph. 4:11-12). Thus, the fact that Paul said the tongues speaker edifies himself (1 Cor. 14:4) is proof that he understands what he is saying.

THIRD, PAUL SAYS THAT TONGUES ARE AN EARTHLY LANGUAGE (1 Cor. 14:20-22).

If the tongues-speaking in 1 Corinthians 14 were some sort of “private prayer language,” why would Paul give this prophetic explanation of it and state dogmatically that it is an earthly language? He does not say that only some “types of tongues” are languages.

FOURTH, IN 1 CORINTHIANS 14:28 PAUL SAYS THE TONGUES SPEAKER SPEAKS BOTH TO HIMSELF AND TO GOD.

“But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.” This means that he can understand what he is speaking. Otherwise, how could he speak to himself? Does anyone speak to himself in “unknown gibberish”?

FIFTH, THERE IS NO EXAMPLE IN 1 CORINTHIANS 14 OF A BELIEVER SPEAKING IN TONGUES PRIVATELY AND THERE IS NO ENCOURAGEMENT TO DO SO.

What about verse 28? “But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God” (1 Cor. 14:27-28). This says nothing about praying in tongues privately. It is talking about the exercise of gifts in a public meeting. Paul says that if there is no interpretation, the individual tongues speaker should keep silent and pray to God, but he says nothing about getting off by oneself and praying privately in tongues. One must read all of that into the verse.

SIXTH, IF THERE WERE A “PRIVATE PRAYER LANGUAGE” THAT EDIFIED THE CHRISTIAN’S LIFE IT WOULD BE VERY IMPORTANT AND THE BIBLE WOULD EXPLAIN IT CLEARLY and circumscribe its usage as it does the use of tongues in the church.

SEVENTH, A “PRIVATE PRAYER LANGUAGE” THAT HELPED THE CHRISTIAN TO BE STRONGER IN HIS WALK WITH CHRIST WOULD DOUBTLESS BE MENTIONED IN OTHER PLACES IN THE NEW TESTAMENT IN THE CONTEXT OF SANCTIFICATION AND CHRISTIAN LIVING.

In fact, though, it is never mentioned in any such context. The apostles and prophets addressed many situations in the New Testament epistles and gave all things necessary for holy Christian living, but they never taught that the believer needs to speak in a “private prayer language” in order to have spiritual victory or to find God’s guidance or to be healed or to be able to fall asleep or any other such thing. If there were such a thing as a “devotional prayer language” that built up the Christian life and made the Christian stronger spiritually, Paul would doubtless have instructed the church at Corinth to spend more time speaking in devotional tongues, but he gives no such counsel.

EIGHTH, IT IS NOT POSSIBLE THAT TONGUES-SPEAKING COULD BE A NECESSARY PART OF THE CHRISTIAN LIFE, BECAUSE PAUL PLAINLY STATES THAT NOT ALL SPEAK IN TONGUES (1 Cor. 14:29-20).

Some will ask, “Why, then, does Paul say, ‘I would that ye all spake with tongues’” (1 Cor. 14:5)? The answer is that Paul was not saying that all did speak with tongues or that all could speak with tongues; he was merely expressing a desire that the exercise of spiritual gifts be done and that it be done right. In 1 Cor. 7:7, Paul uses exactly the same expression in the context of celibacy. He said, “For I would that all men were even as I myself...” We do not know of any Pentecostals or Charismatics who take this statement literally by teaching that it is God’s will for every believer to remain unmarried, but they take the same expression in 1 Cor. 14:5 as a law. There is a strange inconsistency here.

NINTH, ALL OF THE NEW TESTAMENT’S INSTRUCTION ABOUT PRAYER TAKE FOR GRANTED THAT PRAYER IS A CONSCIOUS, WILLFUL, UNDERSTANDABLE ACT ON THE PART OF THE BELIEVER AND THAT HE IS SPEAKING TO GOD IN UNDERSTANDABLE TERMS.

We see this in Jesus’ instructions about prayer. “After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen” (Matt. 6:5-13). This is a conscious, understandable prayer. We see the same thing in Paul’s instructions about prayer (e.g., Rom. 15:30-32; Eph. 6:18-20; Col. 4:2-3; Heb. 13:18-19). There is not one example of a prayer recorded in Scripture that is anything other than an individual speaking to God in conscious, understandable terms. In fact, Christ forbade the repetitious type of “prayers” that are commonly heard among those that practice a “private prayer language.” “But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking” (Mat. 6:7). Yet I have oftentimes heard “prayer tongues” that sound like this: “Shalalama, balalama, shalalama, balalama, bubalama, shalalama, bugalala, shalalama....” Whatever that is, it is not New Testament “tongues” and it is not New Testament prayer.

TENTH, EVEN IF WE WERE TO AGREE THAT 1 CORINTHIANS 14 REFERS TO A “PRIVATE PRAYER LANGUAGE,” IT WOULD NOT BE SOMETHING THAT COULD BE LEARNED OR IMITATED.

Whatever is described in 1 Corinthians 14 is a divine miracle, but this is contrary to the Pentecostal-Charismatic practice whereby people are taught to speak in a “prayer language.”

ELEVENTH, TO USE THE GIFT OF TONGUES AS A “PRIVATE PRAYER LANGUAGE” WOULD BE TO DESTROY ITS CHIEF PURPOSE, WHICH IS A SIGN TO UNBELIEVING ISRAEL.

Former Pentecostal Fernand Legrand wisely observes: “By using this sign in private, some think they can profit from ONE of its aspects, while ignoring the others, but you cannot dismantle a gift and retain only one of its components. A car is a complex mechanical object that is driven as an entity or is not driven at all. You cannot take the wheels for a run and leave the body and the engine in the garage. When a car is running it is the whole car that moves. In the same way, TONGUES WERE NOT TO BE SLICED UP LIKE A SAUSAGE. They were to edify the speaker AND the others AND be a sign for the Jewish unbelievers AND be understandable or be so rendered by interpretation. They had to be all that at the same time. The gift was inseparable from its one and only unchanging purpose: to be a sign for non-believing Jews of the universal offer of salvation (Acts 2:17; 1 Cor. 14:20-22)” (All about Speaking in Tongues, p. 67).

TWELVTH, THOUGH I HAVE HEARD MANY EXAMPLES OF “DEVOTIONAL TONGUES” OVER THE PAST 33 YEARS, I HAVE NEVER HEARD ANYTHING BUT GIBBERISH.

What I have heard is not languages of any sort but mere repetitious mutterings that anyone could imitate. Larry Lea’s “tongues” at Indianapolis 1990 went like this: “Bubblyida bubblyida hallelujah bubblyida hallabubbly shallabubblyida kolabubblyida glooooory hallelujah bubblyida.” I wrote that down as he was saying it and later checked it against the tape. Nancy Kellar, a Roman Catholic nun who was on the executive committee of St. Louis 2000, spoke in “tongues” on Thursday evening of the conference. Her tongues were a repetition of “shananaa leea, shananaa higha, shananaa nanaa, shananaa leea…” This is taken directly from the audiotapes of the messages. If these are languages, they certainly have a simple vocabulary!

THIRTEENTH, THE PRACTICE OF LEARNING HOW TO SPEAK IN TONGUES THAT IS POPULAR AMONG PENTECOSTALS AND CHARISMATICS IS UNSCRIPTURAL AND DANGEROUS.

If we were to agree that there is such a thing as a “private prayer language” and that it would help us live a better Christian life and if we were to accept the Charismatic’s challenge to “try it and see,” the next question is, “How do I begin to speak in this ‘prayer language’?” A chapter in the book These Wonderful Gifts (by Michael Harper) is entitled “Letting Go and Letting God,” in which the believer is instructed to stop analyzing experiences so carefully and strictly, to stop “setting up alarm systems” and “squatting nervously behind protective walls.” He says the believer should step out from behind his “walls and infallible systems” and just open up to God. That is a necessary but unscriptural and exceedingly dangerous step toward receiving the Charismatic experiences. Having stopped analyzing everything with Scripture, the standard method of experiencing the “gift of tongues” or a “private prayer language” is to open one’s mouth and to start speaking words but not words that one understands and allegedly “God will take control.” Dennis Bennett says: “Open your mouth and show that you believe the Lord has baptized you in the Spirit by beginning to speak. Don’t speak English, or any other language you know, for God can’t guide you to speak in tongues if you are speaking in a language known to you. ... Just like a child learning to talk for the first time, open your mouth and speak out the first syllables and expressions that come to your lips. ... You may begin to speak, but only get out a few halting sounds. That’s wonderful! You’ve broken the ‘sound barrier’! Keep in with those sounds. Offer them to God. Tell Jesus you love Him in those ‘joyful noises’! In a very real sense, any sound you make, offering your tongue to God in simple faith, may be the beginning of speaking in tongues” (The Holy Spirit and You, pp. 76, 77, 79).

This is so grossly unscriptural and nonsensical it would seem unnecessary to refute it. There is absolutely nothing like this in the New Testament. To ignore the Bible and to seek something that the Bible never says seek in ways the Bible does not support and to open oneself uncritically to religious experiences like this puts oneself in danger of receiving “another spirit” (2 Cor. 11:4).

FOURTEENTH, THE FACT IS THAT BIBLICAL TONGUES WERE REAL EARTHLY LANGUAGES, AND THIS IS A FOUNDATIONAL TRUTH.

Any doctrine of tongues that reduces this practice to mere gibberish of any sort that is not a real language is unscriptural.


A Private Prayer Language? < click
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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#90
QUESTION: If tongues can be understood by the speaker, why does Paul say, “For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful” (1 Cor. 14:14)?

ANSWER: The Pentecostal-Charismatic movements find justification in this verse for their doctrine that tongues-speaking is some sort of communication that bypasses the intellect and understanding. Pastor Bill Williams of San Jose, California, says that the awareness one has through tongues is “beyond emotion, beyond intellect. It transcends human understanding” (“Speaking in Tongues--Believers Relish the Experience,” Los Angeles Times, Sept. 19, 1987, B2). Charles Hunter says, “The reason some of you don’t speak [in tongues] fluently is that you tried to think of the sounds. ... You don’t even have to think in order to pray in the Spirit” (Hunter, “Receiving the Baptism with the Holy Spirit,” Charisma, July 1989, p. 54).

But if 1 Corinthians 14:14 means that the tongues-speaker is speaking “beyond his intellect” or something of that sort, it would be the only place in Scripture where such a doctrine is found. Nowhere else does the Scripture say that man’s spirit can operate properly without the understanding or that God operates on man’s spirit in such a manner that he does not understand the communication or that there is some sort of spiritual level of communication that bypasses the understanding. In this same epistle, Paul said, “For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him?” (1 Cor. 2:11). Thus, man’s spirit is that part of him that knows and understands. Eph. 4:23 says the believer is to “be renewed in the spirit of your mind.” Obviously this involves understanding, because Romans 12:2 says we are “transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God..”

What is Paul talking about in 1 Corinthians 14:14, then? Most commentaries say that he is referring to the tongues-speaker’s understanding in relation to others rather than to his own understanding.

Barnes: “Produces nothing that will be of advantage to them. It is like a barren tree; a tree that bears nothing that can be of benefit to others. They cannot understand what I say, and, of course, they cannot be profited by what I utter.”

Adam Clarke: “... my understanding is unfruitful to all others, because they do not understand my prayers, and I either do not or cannot interpret them.”

The Family Bible Notes: “...according to another and preferable view, it bears no fruit to others, since it communicates nothing to them in an intelligible way.”

Jamieson, Fausset, Brown: “"understanding," the active instrument of thought and reasoning; which in this case must be "unfruitful" in edifying others, since the vehicle of expression is unintelligible to them.”

John Wesley: “‘My spirit prayeth’--By the power of the Spirit I understand the words myself. ‘But my understanding is unfruitful’--The knowledge I have is no benefit to others.”

Matthew Henry: “but his understanding would be unfruitful (1 Cor. 14:14), that is, the sense and meaning of his words would be unfruitful, he would not be understood, nor therefore would others join with him in his devotions.”

Treasury of Scripture Knowledge: “That is, ‘not productive of any benefit to others.’”

The context of 1 Cor. 14:14 supports this interpretation:

“Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.” (1 Cor. 14:13-17).

Paul says the tongues-speaker should pray both with the spirit and with the understanding, and it is obvious that he is talking about the understanding of those who are listening, because he says, “Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?” In 1 Corinthians 14:13-17 Paul is saying that the tongues-speaker should give an interpretation of his tongue so that he is not the only one that understands what is being said, because if he prays in a tongue that is not interpreted those who are listening cannot understand and cannot therefore be edified.

A Private Prayer Language? < click
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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#91
i must ask, to this point, which argument both from scripture and from reason is making the most sense?

not to mention, no one but KEN has made any attempt to explain the CESSATION AND RESTART of the gift of tongues (real languages btw).

why did they CEASE...then start again?

if you are tempted to answer faith/lack of faith....think that over first.
 
Sep 8, 2012
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#92
i must ask, to this point, which argument both from scripture and from reason is making the most sense?

not to mention, no one but KEN has made any attempt to explain the CESSATION AND RESTART of the gift of tongues (real languages btw).

why did they CEASE...then start again?

if you are tempted to answer faith/lack of faith....think that over first.
There was no such thing as the 'cessetion' and 'restart' of the gifts.
Just because the hallowed halls of official pious religious Christendom didn't recognize them doesn't mean they weren't there.

Just because the prelate, pope, and the local lord who built cathedrals out of local mud and imported rock, - on the backs of peons; doesn't mean the gifts ever ceased.

The dark age religion was like Egypt, full of monuments.
 
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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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#93
There was no such thing as the 'cessetion' and 'restart' of the gifts.
Just because the hallowed halls of official pious religious Christendom didn't recognize them doesn't mean they weren't there.

Just because the prelate, pope, and the local lord who built cathedrals out of local mud and imported rock, - on the backs of peons; doesn't mean the gifts ever ceased.

The dark age religion was like Egypt, full of monuments.
hmmm.....arguments from silence.
noooo......not enuff.

keep tryin' though.

maybe it's best to decide if tongues means known human languages and if it was a sign for jews.
if we determine that, we're done pretty much, ya?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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#94
But this is rare.
Almost as rare as a Lutheran using the gifts of the Spirit.

I'm sorry, I went too far.
LOL. oh you.

my pastor is extremely gifted as an under-shepherd and expositor of God's Word.
fully equipped.

come to think of it, everyone at my church does remarkably well as a body. hands helping knees.
it's cool.


O, Timothy...why Paul didn't tell you about prayer language or whatever?


2 Timothy 3
All Scripture is God-Breathed

10But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, 11Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 13But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

how come Paul didn't say something like:

"But thou hast fully known my doctrine, tongues-speaking, miracle-working, healing gift, and stuff?"

maybe because what was partial was already passing away and what was complete was arriving?

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
 
Sep 8, 2012
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#95
hmmm.....arguments from silence.What silence?
noooo......not enuff.

keep tryin' though.

maybe it's best to decide if tongues means known human languages and if it was a sign for jews.
if we determine that, we're done pretty much, ya?
You don't think God's Spirit was alive and well in the "peons" - (least of these)?
I tell you it was, as they are the ones who would cry out to Him from the bottom of their souls anyway.
Not the kings,....not the popes,....not the lord's.
- Just the surfs, (and only some of them at that).

Jesus was born in a manger, and He refused to answer the King of His day,-(Herod).
Ever wondered why some of the last will be first, and the first will be last?

As for your question on tongues it has been answered by the Bible.
It is a gift that was never taken away. As God's gifts are without repentance.



 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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#96
The investigation of the gifts is investigating if the Word is true or not.
no it isn't.
i believe the Word is true.
it's men i test.

Jesus doesn't seem offended at us testing men:

Revelation 2:2
I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false.

WE WERE ORDERED TO.
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#97
FIRST, IF THE TONGUES-SPEAKING OF 1 CORINTHIANS 14 IS DIFFERENT FROM THAT OF ACTS 2, THE BIBLE NEVER EXPLAINS THE DIFFERENCE.
The speaking is the same. The miracle of Pentecost is in the understanding of so many (but not all, as some thought they were drunk and thus babbling).

SECOND, PAUL SAID THE TONGUES SPEAKER EDIFIES HIMSELF (1 Cor. 14:4).
Thus, the fact that Paul said the tongues speaker edifies himself (1 Cor. 14:4) is proof that he understands what he is saying.
Vs, 14 says the understanding is unfruitful.

THIRD, PAUL SAYS THAT TONGUES ARE AN EARTHLY LANGUAGE (1 Cor. 14:20-22).
13:1 calls it tongues of angels. Angels are not of earth.

FOURTH, IN 1 CORINTHIANS 14:28 PAUL SAYS THE TONGUES SPEAKER SPEAKS BOTH TO HIMSELF AND TO GOD.
There is a slight difference in the grammar between the two "to"s. The speaker speaks "of/for himself to God". The word himself is derived from a dative of a genitive, not of a nominative.

FIFTH, THERE IS NO EXAMPLE IN 1 CORINTHIANS 14 OF A BELIEVER SPEAKING IN TONGUES PRIVATELY AND THERE IS NO ENCOURAGEMENT TO DO SO.
vs. 39 "forbid not". Vs. 18, "I thank God I speak with tongues more than all of you".

SIXTH, IF THERE WERE A “PRIVATE PRAYER LANGUAGE” THAT EDIFIED THE CHRISTIAN’S LIFE IT WOULD BE VERY IMPORTANT AND THE BIBLE WOULD EXPLAIN IT CLEARLY and circumscribe its usage as it does the use of tongues in the church.
Why would it? We cannot even agree how to baptize or how to do our music. Those clearly ARE important to edify the believer, and there are almost no clear references to technique.

SEVENTH, A “PRIVATE PRAYER LANGUAGE” THAT HELPED THE CHRISTIAN TO BE STRONGER IN HIS WALK WITH CHRIST WOULD DOUBTLESS BE MENTIONED IN OTHER PLACES IN THE NEW TESTAMENT IN THE CONTEXT OF SANCTIFICATION AND CHRISTIAN LIVING.

Why? There are almost no NT passages describing how to counsel one another. Most seminaries teach psychology for this very reason. Pastoral counselling certainly helps strengthen one's walk.

EIGHTH, IT IS NOT POSSIBLE THAT TONGUES-SPEAKING COULD BE A NECESSARY PART OF THE CHRISTIAN LIFE, BECAUSE PAUL PLAINLY STATES THAT NOT ALL SPEAK IN TONGUES (1 Cor. 14:29-20).

Agreed.

NINTH, ALL OF THE NEW TESTAMENT’S INSTRUCTION ABOUT PRAYER TAKE FOR GRANTED THAT PRAYER IS A CONSCIOUS, WILLFUL, UNDERSTANDABLE ACT ON THE PART OF THE BELIEVER AND THAT HE IS SPEAKING TO GOD IN UNDERSTANDABLE TERMS.

Unless of course, one counts tongues as prayer. Remember vs. 14.

TENTH, EVEN IF WE WERE TO AGREE THAT 1 CORINTHIANS 14 REFERS TO A “PRIVATE PRAYER LANGUAGE,” IT WOULD NOT BE SOMETHING THAT COULD BE LEARNED OR IMITATED.

Agreed.

ELEVENTH, TO USE THE GIFT OF TONGUES AS A “PRIVATE PRAYER LANGUAGE” WOULD BE TO DESTROY ITS CHIEF PURPOSE, WHICH IS A SIGN TO UNBELIEVING ISRAEL.

Where does it say this is its "chief purpose"? I see only a comparison of tongues to prophecy on one item - the ideal audience.

TWELVTH, THOUGH I HAVE HEARD MANY EXAMPLES OF “DEVOTIONAL TONGUES” OVER THE PAST 33 YEARS, I HAVE NEVER HEARD ANYTHING BUT GIBBERISH.

I have yet to meet a pastor who agrees with my understanding of Eucharist. What does that prove? Piper has already stated that part of her tongues is an ancient regional eskimo language spoken near her.

THIRTEENTH, THE PRACTICE OF LEARNING HOW TO SPEAK IN TONGUES THAT IS POPULAR AMONG PENTECOSTALS AND CHARISMATICS IS UNSCRIPTURAL AND DANGEROUS.

I'm not sure I agree with "dangerous". It is certainly ineffective at helping someone "get" something which can oly be passibely received. People taught this way are certainly confusing others to think tongues are not real. That's not really dangerous, because you don't need them.


FOURTEENTH, THE FACT IS THAT BIBLICAL TONGUES WERE REAL EARTHLY LANGUAGES, AND THIS IS A FOUNDATIONAL TRUTH.

Not if the miracle was in the understanding and not in the speaking. Please account for the fact that many thought the believers were drunk. I may not understand French or German, but I certainly know when I am hearing them. The native speakers were in Jerusalem three times a year for feasts, and actively engaged in commerce and discussion in their own languages.
 
Sep 8, 2012
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#98
maybe it's best to decide if tongues means known human languages and if it was a sign for jews.
if we determine that, we're done pretty much, ya?
Couldn't have been a sign for the jews, as there were men from other countries asking how these were speaking their language.
........And the same happens today for a prophecy to them.
Also believers are edified by their heavenly language, which is angelic and personal.

The Bible clearly states both occurrences.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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#99
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/07/health/07brain.html?_r=0 is the latest with the pictures, but the interpretation has changed over the years, I suspect being influenced by more of the copycats.
http://chrestomathy.cofc.edu/documents/vol10/Rockower 2011.pdf lacks pictures but is more detailed.
awesome Ken...thank you.
but there was no proof Our Lord was involved.
only that certain parts of the brain light up.
the study also said:

"Researchers have identified at least two forms of the practice, one ecstatic and frenzied, the other subdued and nearly silent.

The new findings contrasted sharply with images taken of other spiritually inspired mental states like meditation, which is often a highly focused mental exercise, activating the frontal lobes.

The scans also showed a dip in the activity of a region called the left caudate. “The findings from the frontal lobes are very clear, and make sense, but the caudate is usually active when you have positive affect, pleasure, positive emotions,” said Dr. James A. Coan, a psychologist at the University of Virginia. “So it’s not so clear what that finding says” about speaking in tongues.

The caudate area is also involved in motor and emotional control, Dr. Newberg said, so it may be that practitioners, while mindful of their circumstances, nonetheless cede some control over their bodies and emotions."

i wonder if we have identical studies on pagan peoples who practice the same thing?
prolly.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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Couldn't have been a sign for the jews, as there were men from other countries asking how these were speaking their language.

ya...they were Jews. they had come from their Diaspora, where they lived in different countries, for Pentecost.
it says so right here:


Acts 2
The Holy Spirit Comes at Pentecost

1When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tonguesa as the Spirit enabled them.

5Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,b 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11(both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” 12Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”


so Jews were actually living in and born in and from those countries, every nation under heaven (the known world at the time)....but they made the pilgrimage to Jerusalem for the festivals and whatnot. they spoke those other languages of course. that's why they were amazed that the uneducated Galileans were speaking even in there little local dialects.

that's how much of a Miracle it was.

Amen.:)

that's when the SIGN to THEM came that the Gospel was also for gentiles.
 
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