So post your points of how the gifts have ended

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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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#81
There is plenty of evidence of spiritual gifts, especially during the next couple of centuries, and even throughout history.
no, there is not.
there are fragments of writings and testimonies from uninspired church fathers.
we do not have to doubt everything they said, and there's little doubt in my mind those few mentions by some of the church fathers are true.

but to say we have plenty of evidence is not true.
we have writings. that is not evidence.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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#82
I've read that in John Chrysostom's sermon which cessationists like to quote about this, he blames the situation on the state of the church not being as glorious as it was in times gone by.
uh...he does?
could you post that section?

John Chrysostom (imo) was living in the very time of the gifts coming to an end - the transition to codified and distributed God-breathed scriptures. he himself was perplexed by the issue. though he said he believed the gifts were still seen in operation, he said clearly they were not common and not to be expected.

as for the other remark, he said he wished for the days gone by when the Spirit controlled all things.
if this was in direct reference to the gifts of the Spirit, perhaps he's looking back in time (not very far back, either)....clearly he wasn't saying the Spirit wasn't then (isn't) active (as cessationists are continually accused of) - he would be saying he longed for the full, ongoing, miraculous, common and CLEAR evidence of the gifts of the Spirit.

i believe his writings actually testify to the very coming to an end of the gifts Paul prophesied.
 
S

Sanashankar

Guest
#83
Being perfect (teleios) still has to do with something happening at the telo (end), since it is derived from that root word. We may be made perfect in the spirit but we will never obtain that perfectness until Christ returns and we see him face to face. Then we will know as we are known for when he appears we will be like him. As for "ye are yet carnal" it is in the context of divisions within the church.

When speaking of word of wisdom, word of knowledge, faith, gifts of healing (only one mentioned as a gift), working of miracles, prophecy, discerning of spirits, tongues, interpretation of tongues. . .these are manifestations of the Spirit. I don't know about you but I still need word of knowledge, word of wisdom, faith, discerning of spirits to live day to day as a Christian. I also believe that we need the manifestations of the Spirit to develop the fruit of Spirit.
So then why did Paul say

1C 13:8 . Charity never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away.

I also believe that we need the manifestations of the Spirit to develop the fruit of Spirit
Is there a scripture to support that?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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#84
Straw man argument.
LOLOLOL.....okay.

(not!)
since when is suggesting you ask a greek scholar to help you understand that passage a straw man argument?:)

anyways, do you ever plan to actually go off site to learn about this (since what is posted doesn't seem to matter)?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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#85
You make it sound like Paul knew the church will have a bible so he said "the perfect Wii come" that kind of made me giggle inside :p
you giggled at the idea Paul knew God would have a fully revealed will for mankind?

WHY? when he's the one who UNDER INSPIRATION said the gifts would cease - when the perfect came.
you just can't be bothered finding out what the perfect was (and is).

that's odd. a simple reading of scripture shows the prophets (and apostles) ALL knew that God was progressively revealing His Will.

Peter told his readers (and us) that we were to pay close attention to what was written.
do you think he included what he wrote (UNDER INSPIRATION) in that?
or did he just speak into the air?

but of course, you want Paul to just flounder around and perhaps assume there would be a million more Apostles...even after they made it clear AN APOSTLE, and the sent 70 HAD TO HAVE ACTUALLY been witnesses of Jesus in life and death and resurrection?

whatever. how ridiculous.
glad you find this funny.
 
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Feb 21, 2012
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#86
1) they were misusing them and boasting and causing division.
God was still working signs and wonders and miracles BECAUSE He was revealing New Covenant Truths to them in real time.
why is this so hard to accept?

2) he said they would cease. he did not tell them they had ceased.
they had not ceased when Paul wrote them, BECAUSE God was still working signs and wonders and miracles BECAUSE He was revealing New Covenant Truths to them in real time.

they had partial things revealed through the gifts.
we now have everything they had - all compiled once for all time.
He was revealing the operations of the manifestation of the Spirit to the church at Corinth, to those that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord - are we not included in those that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord?

I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ; That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance and all knowledge; Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: So that you come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: 1 Corinthians 1:4-7

Can I take the above scriptures and insert myself or is that only for those in real time?

What about Galatians 1:6,7 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. I've heard a lot of people use this verse for those of today and not only for those in real time.

In other words these instructions in 12,13,14 1 Corinthians were only to those in the church at that time/in real time and should not be applicable to the church today? If that is the case, which part of scripture is applicable to me since I am not in real time and can I just pick and choose which scripture I want to apply to me and which I do not?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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#87
I am not arguing the grammar, but rather the conclusion. It doesn't make sense. The apostles have this partial gift and write down their partial prophecies. And by reading what they wrote, we are supposed to have so much greater knowledge and understanding than them, that our understanding is like an adults and their is like children? Just reading Paul, I get the impression that most preachers and interpreters of Paul do not understand Paul's doctrine like Paul did. Even having the epistles of John, Peter, etc. does not make them so great in their understanding that Paul looks like a child in comparison. That interpretation just does not fit the passage.


it......was......not......that......Paul.......was.......not......smart.......or.....gifted......or......called.

it is that they did not have ALL of what we now have.
if you don't understand ALL of what we now have, that's YOUR problem.
not Paul's.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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#88
He was revealing the operations of the manifestation of the Spirit to the church at Corinth, to those that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord - are we not included in those that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord?

I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ; That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance and all knowledge; Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: So that you come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: 1 Corinthians 1:4-7

Can I take the above scriptures and insert myself or is that only for those in real time?



can you insert yourself into it?

i do not know.

when did you suddenly begin proclaiming the wonderful Works of God/The Gospel (not having known about them/IT by reading your Bible since you didn't have one) in KNOWN HUMAN LANGUAGES you did not learn?

please load a video or something or believable testimonies that one day you just up and spoke clearly and succinctly in another language you never learned!....without having EVER HEARD THE GOSPEL previously.

then i guess you can insert yourself into the group at Corinth.
 
Feb 21, 2012
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#89
So then why did Paul say

1C 13:8 . Charity never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Is there a scripture to support that?
I never denied that those things will cease. . .I just deny that they have ceased. You are saying that word of knowledge has vanished away if this verse is meaning that these things are ceased NOW. I just disagree that we do not receive help from the holy spirit to sustain us in our everyday life.

No there is not scripture to support that. . . .I said I believe that. . . But I do know that we build ourselves up in faith by praying in the holy spirit (Jude 20) . . .which to me means praying with the spirit or praying in tongues which is reiterated in

1 Corinthians 14:4a. It just seems logical to me that the more we utilize the gift of holy spirit God has given us the more fruit will be produced.

 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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#90
Yeah, got it:). i was actually showing how Jesus Christ got angry when they asked for signs. Thanks for the info
Which goes to the point that signs and miracles do not produce faith. Jesus was certainly frustrated that the Jews would not recognize Him as their Messiah despite Him raising the dead and healing the infirmed.

The Jews if they had believed their OT scriptures would have received Jesus as the Messiah. Jesus made if very clear that He was the fulfillment of all the prophecies concerning the Savior promised by the Father.

The sides are very well defined in the cessation verses continuation discussion. The matter is settled in my heart.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Feb 21, 2012
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#91
can you insert yourself into it?

i do not know.

when did you suddenly begin proclaiming the wonderful Works of God/The Gospel (not having known about them/IT by reading your Bible since you didn't have one) in KNOWN HUMAN LANGUAGES you did not learn?

please load a video or something or believable testimonies that one day you just up and spoke clearly and succinctly in another language you never learned!....without having EVER HEARD THE GOSPEL previously.

then i guess you can insert yourself into the group at Corinth.
I'm not sure what you are saying. . .? "it is that they did not have ALL of what we now have. " They had the gospel. . .they were eyewitnesses. . .they knew about the power from on high coming. . . they had Paul's letters to the churches. . .which makes up most of our scripture today.

As I said I am not the one that needs proof. . .I am not the one always asking for proof. . .my proof is in the scripture and it wouldn't matter what I did or said . . . if I recorded myself speaking in tongues and interpreting. . .it wouldn't be believed anyway. Satan has seen to it that the manifestations of the holy spirit have been abused to the point of bringing about unbelief as seen so much around here.

I just know what I believe and if I operate the manifestation of speaking in tongues, interpretation, if I receive word of knowledge, word of wisdom, discerning of spirits. . .then I am very thankful because I will admit, I need these things in my life for ME to grow spiritually, for ME to stand just day to day, I am very thankful for the gift of holy spirit given to me by God and Christ.
 
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presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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#92
no, there is not.
there are fragments of writings and testimonies from uninspired church fathers.
we do not have to doubt everything they said, and there's little doubt in my mind those few mentions by some of the church fathers are true.

but to say we have plenty of evidence is not true.
we have writings. that is not evidence.

Yes it is evidence. There are lots and lots of quotes from various sources, especially if you go past the AnteNicene period. Whether you accept the evidence or not, it is evidence. I'll spare you looking up the definition of evidence and posting it.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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#93


it......was......not......that......Paul.......was.......not......smart.......or.....gifted......or......called.

it is that they did not have ALL of what we now have.
if you don't understand ALL of what we now have, that's YOUR problem.
not Paul's.
It's obviously your problem, too, and illustrates your problem with the interpretation.

Paul wrote, "
[SUP]11 [/SUP]When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. [SUP]12 [/SUP]For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known."
(NKJV)

He doesn't say then I will have a book which I can study to know fully. He says, "Then I shall know". Notice the contrast to 'in part.'

The issue is complete knowledge NOT having access to all relevant information in a book. If believers had complete knowledge now, what need would there be of Bible study. New believers study the Bible at least partly because they do not know it.

The issue is COMPLETE KNOWLEDGE not access to a complete repository of knowledge.

Notice Paul compares it to his own individual understanding as a child. He says I shall know fully. He wasn't even around when John finished Revelation. But if you want to use it metaphorically to apply to others, it applies to the individual, not to the collective knowledge of the church. The individual does not gain complete knowledge at salvation. We do not have complete knowledge of the scriptures, which is why we study. We certainly do not have such complete knowledge of the scriptures that we make Paul's understanding of New Testament doctrine seem childish by comparison.

The text just does not say what you are trying to make it say.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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#94
i believe his writings actually testify to the very coming to an end of the gifts Paul prophesied.
This is interesting. Are you saying you don't think these things came to an end until near the time of John Crysostom?
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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#95
LOLOLOL.....okay.

(not!)
since when is suggesting you ask a greek scholar to help you understand that passage a straw man argument?:)
The argument that telios does not refer grammatically to the words for Jesus or Christ is the strawman argument. Grammatical agreement is a non-issue. Concepts that are related do not have to agree grammatically, especially if the concepts aren't specifically described with a certain word in a text. Human language just doesn't work that way.

It's like if someone dug up English texts a thousands years later and read, "I like food. Food is good." Someone else digs up another text. "Strawberries tastes great." Then everyone is discussing it on an Internet site and someone argues that 'strawberries' cannot be 'food' because one is singular and the other is plural. They don't agree in grammar. They aren't even mentioned in the same context, but someone tries to argue that they can't be related, sematically, because the grammatical form is different. It's nonsense, and maybe sophistry if well argued, and very similar to the argument being made about the gender of 'the perfect' in I Corinthians 13.
 
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presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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#96
If we are going to be nonsensical about I Corinthians 13, let's be nondiscriminatory about it. Let us not discriminate against 'gnosis' the Greek word for knowledge.

If your argument is that 'that which is perfect' cannot refer to Christ because names for the Lord Jesus are not in the neuter gender, then you should not argue that 'that which is perfect' refers to complete knowledge, because the Greek word for knowledge is feminine.


gnOsis
G1108
n_ Nom Sg f
KNOWledge

I Corinthians 13:2
8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.

Related concepts do not have to agree in gender. If no word for Christ agrees in gender with the word translated 'that which is perfect', that does not mean that perfection cannot come when Christ returns.

I Corinthians 1
[SUP]5 [/SUP]that you were enriched in everything by Him in all utterance and all knowledge[SUP][/SUP][SUP]6 [/SUP]even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, [SUP]7 [/SUP]so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, [SUP]8 [/SUP]who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

(NKJV)
underlines mine
 
U

unclefester

Guest
#97
Don't u see Paul's sarcasm in the first verse??Is there any apostles or prophets who lead such a miserable life? i wud like to meet him. This is the narrow way which Jesus Christ preached.
And ... should we expect today's "apostles" to be martyred for the faith, as were all but John of the twelve ? All of today's apostles must likewise be greater than Paul as well, since Paul called himself the least of the apostles. Does the following verse mean anything to the "apostle's today" crowd ? Anything at all ?

Revelations 21:14
The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
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#98
CHURCH FATHERS: Fragments of Dionysius here read the 3rd epistle,,,,,this will help us sit in the a.c and sip iced tea and contemplate the day when we are courageous and stand together and lay down our lives for the testimony,,,
 
Sep 8, 2012
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#99
prove they haven't ceased.
Are you a moron?

Prove Jesus is no longer Lord?

That is your logic.

You say you follow the Word. But discerning it is far from you.
 
S

Sanashankar

Guest
If we are going to be nonsensical about I Corinthians 13, let's be nondiscriminatory about it. Let us not discriminate against 'gnosis' the Greek word for knowledge.

If your argument is that 'that which is perfect' cannot refer to Christ because names for the Lord Jesus are not in the neuter gender, then you should not argue that 'that which is perfect' refers to complete knowledge, because the Greek word for knowledge is feminine.


gnOsis
G1108
n_ Nom Sg f
KNOWledge

I Corinthians 13:2
8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.

Related concepts do not have to agree in gender. If no word for Christ agrees in gender with the word translated 'that which is perfect', that does not mean that perfection cannot come when Christ returns.

I Corinthians 1
[SUP]5 [/SUP]that you were enriched in everything by Him in all utterance and all knowledge[SUP]6 [/SUP]even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, [SUP]7 [/SUP]so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, [SUP]8 [/SUP]who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

(NKJV)
underlines mine
Brother the Greel word used in 1Cor 13:10 for knowledge is "teleion" G5046 not "gnOsis" G1108. and my strongs dictionary says since "to" G3588 comes before "teleion" it is neuter.

G5046 teleios tel'-i-os

complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness.


Not an argument. I'm still studying.