So post your points of how the gifts have ended

[Sanashankar]

And ... should we expect today's "apostles" to be martyred for the faith, as were all but John of the twelve ? All of today's apostles must likewise be greater than Paul as well, since Paul called himself the least of the apostles. Does the following verse mean anything to the "apostle's today" crowd ? Anything at all ?

Revelations 21:14
The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Its not abt getting killed for the truth. its abt what they do, how they live, how they spend the money they get from the church. One brother whom i met here sent me this

18 million homes empty in America, only 3 million homeless.

Enough food to feed 12 billion people when the planet only has 7 billion.

The technology to comfortably take care of all of mankind.


Can you see the real evil in the hearts of men? If we would but love one another, we would all be translated instantly into the kingdom of God.

If Christians really OBEYED the New Testament CHURCH BUILDINGS WOULD NOT EXIST. There would be NO money for them since the Christians would be AGGRESSIVELY seeking out the poor and helping them.

Jesus said:


Mt 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Does miracle healing, tongues, prophesying has anything to do with yielding fruits???

Mt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Of course God is not speaking abt people who hates or disobeys him, he is talking abt people who calls God's name, who does miracles IN HIS NAME.

They are the false prophets, because in the same chapter 5 verses back Jesus says this:

Mt 7:15 . Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Beware of not the "WOLVES", but the "WOLVES IN SHEEP'S CLOTH"

 

[RickShafer]

The Holy Spirit is repeatedly referred to in gender neutral terms.....Yet Jesus called Him a "He". - John 16:13.
Now, since the Holy Spirit had already come, what is "that which is perfect" that Paul refers to in I Corinthians 13?

- The Canon?
Matthew 23:35 (KJV)
[SUP]35 [/SUP]That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Please read.......was it that Zacharias that was slain between the the temple and the altar?

- - No!

Jesus never said this. Yet you will find this in all of the translations.
Why? Because the translators are just translating what was written.
Jesus was obviously referring to the writer of the book of Zachariah.
But a very early copyist made a mistake.
So don't tell me the Canon is "that which is perfect".

......But I will show you more if you persist.

 

[Sanashankar]

I never denied that those things will cease. . .I just deny that they have ceased. You are saying that word of knowledge has vanished away if this verse is meaning that these things are ceased NOW. I just disagree that we do not receive help from the holy spirit to sustain us in our everyday life.

No there is not scripture to support that. . . .I said I believe that. . . But I do know that we build ourselves up in faith by praying in the holy spirit (Jude 20) . . .which to me means praying with the spirit or praying in tongues which is reiterated in
1 Corinthians 14:4a. It just seems logical to me that the more we utilize the gift of holy spirit God has given us the more fruit will be produced.

Now this verse in the bible says abt the "falling away", ofcourse what Paul said in 1Cor 13:8 comes at this time

2Th 2:3-4 . Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

This is the time when false prophets, false teachings come. I guess we are in this stage because John and Peter already told

1Jn 4:1...because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2Pt 2:1 . But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

They did not say false prophet will come, they said, its already gone to deceive people. So the falling away would have started at the time of the apostles only. Only in this time can 1Cor13:8 can happen.

1 Corinthians 14:4a. It just seems logical to me that the more we utilize the gift of holy spirit God has given us the more fruit will be produced.

I guess thats not how God sees it

Mt 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mt 7:21 . Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[RickShafer]

Now this verse in the bible says abt the "falling away", ofcourse what Paul said in 1Cor 13:8 comes at this time

2Th 2:3-4 . Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

This is the time when false prophets, false teachings come. I guess we are in this stage because John and Peter already told

1Jn 4:1...because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2Pt 2:1 . But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

They did not say false prophet will come, they said, its already gone to deceive people. So the falling away would have started at the time of the apostles only. Only in this time can 1Cor13:8 can happen.



I guess thats not how God sees it

Mt 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mt 7:21 . Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Such convoluted thinking cannot be found in any other serious forum ........ (except maybe a atheist's thread).
- - -Ha,ha,ha!

 

[RickShafer]

(I repost for Zone, lest she miss it) :

The Holy Spirit is repeatedly referred to in gender neutral terms.....Yet Jesus called Him a "He". - John 16:13.
Now, since the Holy Spirit had already come, what is "that which is perfect" that Paul refers to in I Corinthians 13?

- The Canon?
Matthew 23:35 (KJV)
[SUP]35 [/SUP]That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Please read.......was it that Zacharias that was slain between the the temple and the altar?

- - No!

Jesus never said this. Yet you will find this in all of the translations.
Why? Because the translators are just translating what was written.
Jesus was obviously referring to the writer of the book of Zachariah.
But a very early copyist made a mistake.
So don't tell me the Canon is "that which is perfect".

......But I will show you more if you persist.

 

[Sanashankar]

Such convoluted thinking cannot be found in any other serious forum ........ (except maybe a atheist's thread).
- - -Ha,ha,ha!

We are in the end times brother, falling away is not going to happen a few days or weeks before the second coming of Jesus Christ. It is an age which already started.

 

[unclefester]

Its not abt getting killed for the truth. its abt what they do, how they live, how they spend the money they get from the church. One brother whom i met here sent me this

Really ?? Maybe you can tell that to the true apostles of old along with the many others that were beheaded, burnt alive, stoned to death, killed by the sword, hung on a tree etc. etc. for the faith. I'm familiar with the everybody gets an abandoned house theory. I'm "all in". Tired of working long hours anyways. Kinda wondering what happens when we run out of other peoples money though ?

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Now this verse in the bible says abt the "falling away", ofcourse what Paul said in 1Cor 13:8 comes at this time

2Th 2:3-4 . Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

This is the time when false prophets, false teachings come. I guess we are in this stage because John and Peter already told

1Jn 4:1...because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2Pt 2:1 . But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

They did not say false prophet will come, they said, its already gone to deceive people. So the falling away would have started at the time of the apostles only. Only in this time can 1Cor13:8 can happen.

When 1 Corinthians 13:8 happens is when that which is "perfect" is come. . . .when we see "face to face". . .we shall know even as we are known. . .then the childish things will be put away.

Brother the Greel word used in 1Cor 13:10 for knowledge is "teleion" G5046 not "gnOsis" G1108. and my strongs dictionary says since "to" G3588 comes before "teleion" it is neuter.

Not an argument. I'm still studying.

Nope. . .the word knowledge is not in 1 Corinthians 13:10 but in 13:8. . ."knowledge, it shall vanish away" and it is the Greek word gnosis the same as used in 12:8 wherein the manifestation of the Spirit are listed - "word of knowledge".

Why are you still studying? If the manifestation of the Spirit has ceased. . . "knowledge has vanished away" - we won't get very far no matter how much we study . . right?

I guess thats not how God sees it

Mt 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mt 7:21 . Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

hmmmm. . .by their fruits ye shall know them. . .what is the fruit of the Spirit? Could it be the fruit listed in Galatians? That is the only scripture that I have found list the "fruit" of the Spirit. . .the fruit that should be produced as we continue to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh.

 

[BradC]

Rick,
Have you experienced (or do you possess) any of the Gifts of the Spirit?

Did you ask this sincerely or with the intent to go after and ridicule him? A gift of God is not given to be possessed because it can be taken away. I am not talking about about imputed gifts that have to do with salvation but gifts given for the edification of the body. I'll tell you a gift of the Spirit that was given to me and its 'helps' recorded in 1 Cor 12:28. This is more that what a deacon would do in serving the poor, needy and the sick. It's a gift that includes having the ability to perceive when their is a need and to lay hold on the source of meeting that need, whether it is material or spiritual in nature. It can be done confidentially or publically in the body with the purpose of edifying the members of the church. If I get carnal and spiritually off that gift becomes inactive because the Spirit is grieved because of the flesh, but when I am walking by faith in the Spirit and living by the word in my spirit, that gift becomes active and it is given to be used with discretion not to invade individual privacy or have any kind of dominion over another. Is there someone out there that is going to tell me that I received no such gift that is listed and mentioned with the others gifts of 1 Cor 12:27,28. Has this gift also ceased because it is not needed?

 

[RickShafer]

We are in the end times brother, falling away is not going to happen a few days or weeks before the second coming of Jesus Christ. It is an age which already started.

Yes. I know.
Why sodden this thread, (which is about whether the gifts of the Holy Spirit have ended), with such things as all of us already know?

 

[watcher2013]

1C 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Strong's dictionary

G5046 teleios tel'-i-os

complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness.

“But when the TELEION comes, the partial will be done away.” The adjective, translated “perfect”, is the subject of the sentence and the gender is neuter. The gender neutral would not be used if God or Jesus Christ were in mind. Paul used the neuter gender, referring to a thing, not a person.

Moreover, if the Second Coming of Jesus is meant, then we are in the "in part" state, seeing Christ has not come. This presents a serious problem in view of all the scriptures that emphasize the completeness of revelation and of our present system being complete. Paul wrote, "And ye are complete in him." (Col. 2: 10, the illustration of I Corinthians 13: 11-13 can also be understood of the word, see James 1: 23-25).

God be with u

That Which Is Perfect

Paul when discussing which that "perfect" talks also of we will see "FACE TO FACE" who is this we will see face to face?

[[1Co 13:12]] KJV For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

 

[RickShafer]

Did you ask this sincerely or with the intent to go after and ridicule him? A gift of God is not given to be possessed because it can be taken away. I am not talking about about imputed gifts that have to do with salvation but gifts given for the edification of the body. I'll tell you a gift of the Spirit that was given to me and its 'helps' recorded in 1 Cor 12:28. This is more that what a deacon would do in serving the poor, needy and the sick. It's a gift that includes having the ability to perceive when their is a need and to lay hold on the source of meeting that need, whether it is material or spiritual in nature. It can be done confidentially or publically in the body with the purpose of edifying the members of the church. If I get carnal and spiritually off that gift becomes inactive because the Spirit is grieved because of the flesh, but when I am walking by faith in the Spirit and living by the word in my spirit, that gift becomes active and it is given to be used with discretion not to invade individual privacy or have any kind of dominion over another. Is there someone out there that is going to tell me that I received no such gift that is listed and mentioned with the others gifts of 1 Cor 12:27,28. Has this gift also ceased because it is not needed?

I can answer that, he wants to corner me into saying I'm a prophet.
I will do no such thing. (Though I have been used by the Holy Spirit in that gifting).
He sees no gifts as described in I Cor. 13 in his life, so all who are using them are therefore(in his eyes) false prophets.
It is funny that 'prophecy' is only one of the gifts - - - - yet they all clamour for that one.(Shades of their fathers, the pharisees, who held to the O.T.; to the killing of the Spirit of God when He was made flesh).
I wonder why none asked whether I was a healer, or a worker of miracles, or an interpreter of tongues?
(It is because they don't believe any of it).
They got their answer.......the same one Jesus gave to their fathers.
The only sign they will get is Jonas three days in the belly of the great fish. - (and I'm not Jesus, nor do I do all the gifts I listed, but it makes no matter)

 

[RickShafer]

In the interest of getting this thread back on track:

The Holy Spirit is repeatedly referred to in gender neutral terms.....Yet Jesus called Him a "He". - John 16:13.
Now, since the Holy Spirit had already come, what is "that which is perfect" that Paul refers to in I Corinthians 13?

- The Canon?
Matthew 23:35 (KJV)
[SUP]35 [/SUP]That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Please read.......was it that Zacharias that was slain between the the temple and the altar?

- - No!

Jesus never said this. Yet you will find this in all of the translations.
Why? Because the translators are just translating what was written.
Jesus was obviously referring to the writer of the book of Zachariah.
But a very early copyist made a mistake.
So don't tell me the Canon is "that which is perfect".

......But I will show you more if you persist.

 

[Sanashankar]

Paul when discussing which that "perfect" talks also of we will see "FACE TO FACE" who is this we will see face to face?

[[1Co 13:12]] KJV For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica][/FONT]
see Hebrews chapter


Hb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Hb 5:13 For every one that useth milk [is] unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Hb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

The first principles of the oracle of God is considered to be milk, its like ABC. when it is time for u to be teachers why u want to learn ABC. Its like having milk instead of having strong meat.

Paul has given only milk to Corinthians, not strong meat

1C 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able.

This verse is from 1Corintians

KJV For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

For we see, as yet, through a dim window, obscurely, but, then, face to face: as yet, I gain knowledge, in part, but, then, shall I fully know, even as I was also fully known - Rotherhams expanded bible

We shall see face to face doesnt mean we will see Jesus' face. Once u start getting the spiritual meat ( not the milk) the veil from the heart will be taken away. We become mature in Christ. It will be like seeing him face to face, till we acquire that knowledge its like seeing him thru a dim window.

 

[Sanashankar]

Really ?? Maybe you can tell that to the true apostles of old along with the many others that were beheaded, burnt alive, stoned to death, killed by the sword, hung on a tree etc. etc. for the faith. I'm familiar with the everybody gets an abandoned house theory. I'm "all in". Tired of working long hours anyways. Kinda wondering what happens when we run out of other peoples money though ?

I think u misunderstood what i was trying to say. You said

And ... should we expect today's "apostles" to be martyred for the faith, as were all but John of the twelve ?

I replied to this...My friend died of cancer. She was a believer, and was going to the church. A church the same u see anywhere. The pastor makes a lot of trip to America and other parts of the world for ministry. He has a bently car, he lives in a million worth apartment. He has 15000 souls going to his church. When she, went to the pastor, the only thing he said is "i will pray for u". WHATTT??? Why did not he use his spiritual gift to heal her?? (i talk like a fool). But see the attitude, he did not even help her financially. She was a member of that church for more than 10 years...giving 10% of her salary, speaks in tounges. What is the use of having such apostles and pastors when they cant obey Jesus Christ. Help those who are in need???

 

[zone]

In the interest of getting this thread back on track:

The Holy Spirit is repeatedly referred to in gender neutral terms.....Yet Jesus called Him a "He". - John 16:13.
Now, since the Holy Spirit had already come, what is "that which is perfect" that Paul refers to in I Corinthians 13?

- The Canon?
Matthew 23:35 (KJV)
[SUP]35 [/SUP]That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Please read.......was it that Zacharias that was slain between the the temple and the altar?

- - No!

Jesus never said this. Yet you will find this in all of the translations.
Why? Because the translators are just translating what was written.
Jesus was obviously referring to the writer of the book of Zachariah.
But a very early copyist made a mistake.
So don't tell me the Canon is "that which is perfect".

......But I will show you more if you persist.

why don't you spend 5 minutes and find out what teleios means.

 

[RickShafer]

Wait a minute Ms.,........a child's greatest asset is his/hers parental love.
Now, Rotterdam says these verses mean once you are weaned from the milk you will be eating the meat of the gospel.
Therefore you would not need the faith and hope that is necessary for a mature believer who is being persecuted for his/her stance.
So faith and hope are over:when you receive stripes, or are beaten with rods, or cast adrift at sea, or imprisoned for the gospel's sake, or burned, or beheaded; - faith and hope are no longer necessary then, that is what he is saying.
- - - -Totally incongruent with actual christian life, but carry on.

 

[zone]

I can answer that, he wants to corner me into saying I'm a prophet.
I will do no such thing. (Though I have been used by the Holy Spirit in that gifting).

you just made the claim.
but this bait & switch is typical of today's (not-really) prophets.

you've either been 'used in the gifting" (whatever that means) or you haven't.
if you say you have, you're claiming to be a prophet, but you won't accept the responsibility of the claim.

 

[1still_waters]

The further away I've gotten from people telling me "God has a word for me" or any other variation of that, the more stable my walk with God has become. Confusion reduced by 90%.


Relying on what's already clearly revealed has done wonders to bring stability and peace to my life.

 

[zone]

Related concepts do not have to agree in gender. If no word for Christ agrees in gender with the word translated 'that which is perfect', that does not mean that perfection cannot come when Christ returns.

this is actually really funny.