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Awesome Sister awesome, I asked my parents why they Baptized ma as a Child and they said it was their dedication to bring me up to know the Lord. And yes it does not only happen this way, for I know of others that are dedicated too, that have never been water Baptized by any Church. And are wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! God has put insight into them amazingly
And it is not bad to be water Baptized either, what is bad is the motive if it is for show, and not for a good conscience for God
And it is not bad to be water Baptized either, what is bad is the motive if it is for show, and not for a good conscience for God
So why did God have eight day old males circumcised? Remember that was done by the law but ALSO BY THE FAITH of the parents. (Especially if one converted) Remember also they started with the Jews who did have the law,when the family converted ALL THE MALES were circumcised. Those males children HAD NO SAY. You also have no apostles saying NOT TO do it.
1
Again that's a verse that might imply infant baptism, but when it comes to actual verses SHOWING infant baptism, we can't find one. Not even one.
Also, if we were to follow the OT pattern, then only male babies should be baptized.
If male circumcision = sign men are in the covenant, then male only baptism must be done to follow the pattern.
Also circumcision didn't carry with it the act of regeneration.
Also, if we were to follow the OT pattern, then only male babies should be baptized.
If male circumcision = sign men are in the covenant, then male only baptism must be done to follow the pattern.
Also circumcision didn't carry with it the act of regeneration.
i absolutely agree with this part.
but is God involved in the Covenant part of New Covenant?
does He mention households?
Acts 16
14One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul. 15 And after she was baptized, and her household as well, she urged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.” And she prevailed upon us.
"and her household as well"?
all the same day?
it doesn't say ""and all the adults in her household as well"
it doesn't even say they (all her household) were even there when Paul preached the gospel
it says: "and we sat down and spoke to the women who had come together."
?
Acts 16
14One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul. 15 And after she was baptized, and her household as well, she urged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.” And she prevailed upon us.
why is that even in there?
but is God involved in the Covenant part of New Covenant?
does He mention households?
Acts 16
14One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul. 15 And after she was baptized, and her household as well, she urged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.” And she prevailed upon us.
"and her household as well"?
all the same day?
it doesn't say ""and all the adults in her household as well"
it doesn't even say they (all her household) were even there when Paul preached the gospel
it says: "and we sat down and spoke to the women who had come together."
?
Acts 16
14One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul. 15 And after she was baptized, and her household as well, she urged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.” And she prevailed upon us.
why is that even in there?
1
i absolutely agree with this part.
but is God involved in the Covenant part of New Covenant?
does He mention households?
Acts 16
14One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul. 15 And after she was baptized, and her household as well, she urged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.” And she prevailed upon us.
"and her household as well"?
all the same day?
it doesn't say ""and all the adults in her household as well"
it doesn't even say they (all her household) were even there when Paul preached the gospel
it says: "and we sat down and spoke to the women who had come together."
?
Acts 16
14One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul. 15 And after she was baptized, and her household as well, she urged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.” And she prevailed upon us.
why is that even in there?
but is God involved in the Covenant part of New Covenant?
does He mention households?
Acts 16
14One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul. 15 And after she was baptized, and her household as well, she urged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.” And she prevailed upon us.
"and her household as well"?
all the same day?
it doesn't say ""and all the adults in her household as well"
it doesn't even say they (all her household) were even there when Paul preached the gospel
it says: "and we sat down and spoke to the women who had come together."
?
Acts 16
14One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul. 15 And after she was baptized, and her household as well, she urged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.” And she prevailed upon us.
why is that even in there?
That doesn't outright show it.
In those times a household would include servants/slaves too.
Are you telling me household includes servants/slaves of the household who got baptized even if they didn't believe?
Then at the point of being baptized even though they didn't believe they became regenerated?
Again, I agree those verses may imply baby baptism, but it doesn't show it as overtly and clearly as verses which show believer adult baptism. Which ends up being a doctrine built more on implications, than clear overt revelation.
and wow i'm repeating myself.
simplified for a moment: is baptism said anywhere in scripture to be connected to the forgiveness of sins?
........
(i realize it isn't stated in every verse of the Bible - but is it connected to the forgiveness of sins anywhere? if it is, we have an issue to deal with.)
Christ's shed blood is the ground for forgiveness of sins...we know that. the ONLY thing making the forgiveness of sins possible.
the question is: is baptism said anywhere in scripture to be connected to the forgiveness of sins? in whatever mysterious way that might be....
........
(i realize it isn't stated in every verse of the Bible
- but is it connected to the forgiveness of sins anywhere? if it is, we have an issue to deal with.)Christ's shed blood is the ground for forgiveness of sins...we know that. the ONLY thing making the forgiveness of sins possible.
the question is: is baptism said anywhere in scripture to be connected to the forgiveness of sins? in whatever mysterious way that might be....
Romans 6, states this and Eph. 1:13 states this as well on the very first day of belief, before I, you or anyone can do anything it is done just as he said it is in John 19:30
What Christ came to do was pave the way, the truth and the new life for us in the Spirit of God the Father to come and live in us to teach us all truth that sets us free to be noting but LOVE God's type. Now this new life is found in the resurrected Christ not in the death of Christ. Yet first one needs to see their own self flesh as no good and decide to be dead with Christ at Christ's death asking God to co-crucify them their flesh with Christ at Christ's death in order to see the new resurrected Life that comes from God a free gift. and any one that tries to earn nullifies any gift for a gift is not of works period.
lol NO.
i'm saying they aren't mentioned as being with Lydia (and the women praying); we're told The Lord opened her heart to hear...then she was baptized, and her household as well.
that's what we are told.
all on the same day.
i realize what may have consisted of an household: and that it implies ALL her household when its says ALL.
what it does not specifically say is EXCEPT THE INFANTS.
i don't find EXCEPT THE INFANTS/children anywhere - do you?
ya. me too.
i don't know what we do about children and stroke victims and disabled and others in a New Covenant church body who can not make a profession of faith.
hellbound?
outta here
i'm saying they aren't mentioned as being with Lydia (and the women praying); we're told The Lord opened her heart to hear...then she was baptized, and her household as well.
that's what we are told.
all on the same day.
i realize what may have consisted of an household: and that it implies ALL her household when its says ALL.
what it does not specifically say is EXCEPT THE INFANTS.
i don't find EXCEPT THE INFANTS/children anywhere - do you?
Again, I agree those verses may imply baby baptism, but it doesn't show it as overtly and clearly as verses which show believer adult baptism. Which ends up being a doctrine built more on implications, than clear overt revelation.
and wow i'm repeating myself.
and wow i'm repeating myself.
i don't know what we do about children and stroke victims and disabled and others in a New Covenant church body who can not make a profession of faith.
hellbound?
outta here
1
Believer non-infant baptism = foundation built on clear instances in scripture.
Infant baptism with regeneration = foundation built on not as clear instances in scripture, built on implication.
Which foundation is more firm?
Clear revelation, or implication?
You're allowed to build a house on sand.
It may even survive.
But it's wiser to build it on a firm foundation.
Which doctrine has the firmer scriptural foundation?
Infant baptism with regeneration = foundation built on not as clear instances in scripture, built on implication.
Which foundation is more firm?
Clear revelation, or implication?
You're allowed to build a house on sand.
It may even survive.
But it's wiser to build it on a firm foundation.
Which doctrine has the firmer scriptural foundation?
1
lol NO.
i'm saying they aren't mentioned as being with Lydia (and the women praying); we're told The Lord opened her heart to hear...then she was baptized, and her household as well.
that's what we are told.
all one the same day.
i realize what may have consisted of an household: and that it implies ALL her household when its says ALL.
what it does not specifically say is EXCEPT THE INFANTS.
i don't find EXCEPT THE INFANTS/children anywhere - do you?
ya. me too.
i don't know what we do about children and stroke victims and disabled and others in a New Covenant church body who can not make a profession of faith.
hellbound?
outta here
i'm saying they aren't mentioned as being with Lydia (and the women praying); we're told The Lord opened her heart to hear...then she was baptized, and her household as well.
that's what we are told.
all one the same day.
i realize what may have consisted of an household: and that it implies ALL her household when its says ALL.
what it does not specifically say is EXCEPT THE INFANTS.
i don't find EXCEPT THE INFANTS/children anywhere - do you?
ya. me too.
i don't know what we do about children and stroke victims and disabled and others in a New Covenant church body who can not make a profession of faith.
hellbound?
outta here
Again, building doctrine more off of implication, speculation, etc, and not on what is so clearly revealed.
Again, that implies infant baptism.
That doesn't outright show it.
In those times a household would include servants/slaves too.
Are you telling me household includes servants/slaves of the household who got baptized even if they didn't believe?
Then at the point of being baptized even though they didn't believe they became regenerated?
Again, I agree those verses may imply baby baptism, but it doesn't show it as overtly and clearly as verses which show believer adult baptism. Which ends up being a doctrine built more on implications, than clear overt revelation.
and wow i'm repeating myself.
That doesn't outright show it.
In those times a household would include servants/slaves too.
Are you telling me household includes servants/slaves of the household who got baptized even if they didn't believe?
Then at the point of being baptized even though they didn't believe they became regenerated?
Again, I agree those verses may imply baby baptism, but it doesn't show it as overtly and clearly as verses which show believer adult baptism. Which ends up being a doctrine built more on implications, than clear overt revelation.
and wow i'm repeating myself.
1
I'll agree that they may have followed the OT pattern of applying the covenant symbol to infants.
But if you're going to get me to agree, you must agree that infant baptism must only be done to boys.
You can't on one hand stand for upholding the "pattern" only to break and adjust the pattern you're claiming to uphold.
But if you're going to get me to agree, you must agree that infant baptism must only be done to boys.
You can't on one hand stand for upholding the "pattern" only to break and adjust the pattern you're claiming to uphold.
Works of the flesh and none other they had practiced law all of their life's, just as is what is promoted still to this very day, Law and Grace (flesh and Spirit of God) as if they mix when they don't as in having to do verses over being led to do by God's Spirit, big difference in the two.
Galatians 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
That is where the battle is to this very day, only God himself can show anyone the difference of these two. And does for the one's that have received his Mercy from Christ at the cross of.
Galatians 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
That is where the battle is to this very day, only God himself can show anyone the difference of these two. And does for the one's that have received his Mercy from Christ at the cross of.
1
Conversion, and water baptism are clearly intertwined in scripture.
You'd have to be blind or in denial to ignore the connectedness of the two.
The question is, why do the two seem intertwined and connected?
Is it because back then the two happened so close to each other?
Is it because baptism actually delivers what Jesus did on the cross?
I think it's because in the early church baptism and conversion happened so close together.
I can't see Jesus saying that if we turn a fire hose on the masses, they'll get saved.
On the other hand, this is totally subjective and personal.
After I got baptized, someone who had no idea I got baptized said to me..something like.."Hmm something about you seems different now."
But that's a totally subjective experience.
You'd have to be blind or in denial to ignore the connectedness of the two.
The question is, why do the two seem intertwined and connected?
Is it because back then the two happened so close to each other?
Is it because baptism actually delivers what Jesus did on the cross?
I think it's because in the early church baptism and conversion happened so close together.
I can't see Jesus saying that if we turn a fire hose on the masses, they'll get saved.
On the other hand, this is totally subjective and personal.
After I got baptized, someone who had no idea I got baptized said to me..something like.."Hmm something about you seems different now."
But that's a totally subjective experience.
Why? I guess because that's what God told him to do.
What I meant to say that "It's okay to do both". No He isn't - I'm not confused.
baptism with the holy Spirit is new? I believe John stated it first in Matt. 3:11.
No, I wasn't at Pentecost . . . I wasn't with the apostles either when they walked with our Lord but I can gather information and apply it to my life. I wasn't at Ephesus either to read Paul's letters but I believe what I read and I believe that I can learn from scripture and apply it to me directly.
What I meant to say that "It's okay to do both". No He isn't - I'm not confused.
baptism with the holy Spirit is new? I believe John stated it first in Matt. 3:11.
suffering and death.
but peaceful...you weren't AT PENTECOST.
anyways....
but peaceful...you weren't AT PENTECOST.
anyways....
Cornelius and his Family received the Holy Ghost before any water Baptism sister and in Acts 11 as Peter goes over what happened he sees through to truth
[h=3]Acts 11:15-18[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
[SUP]15[/SUP]And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
[SUP]18 [/SUP]When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life
Man flesh always wants to have something to do with salvation , and so man has over the years set this up as if they had or have anything to do with God's amazing plan of salvation to all that believe God over man. Christ by his death for all that believe are made holy through Christ's death alone: and presented to Father for new life in Father by the resurrected Christ in the Spirit of Christ
[h=3]Colossians 1:21-22[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled [SUP]22 [/SUP]in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight
Read the whole Chapter quite revealing if God will permit?
[h=3]Acts 11:15-18[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
[SUP]15[/SUP]And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
[SUP]18 [/SUP]When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life
Man flesh always wants to have something to do with salvation , and so man has over the years set this up as if they had or have anything to do with God's amazing plan of salvation to all that believe God over man. Christ by his death for all that believe are made holy through Christ's death alone: and presented to Father for new life in Father by the resurrected Christ in the Spirit of Christ
[h=3]Colossians 1:21-22[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled [SUP]22 [/SUP]in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight
Read the whole Chapter quite revealing if God will permit?