The MOST CONTROVERSIAL STATEMENT MADE

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Dec 12, 2013
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where does your bible teach this....
I did answer you, but you fail to acknowledge truth and to the point above.....baptism is to the N.T. what Circumcision is to the O.T.

The OUTWARD sign of an inward FAITH.....so....believe what you will....You trust water and works.....I trust Jesus and His faith.....one will get us in the true door...the other one leads to hell......!
 
Dec 12, 2013
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For if we have been planted together in the LIKENESS of HIS death, we shall also be in the LIKNESS of His resurrection.

LIKENESS=homoioma= a form, resemblance, likeness, similitude

Same word used to describe Jesus coming in the LIKNESS of sinful flesh although without SIN

The LIKE FIGURE whereunto even Baptism doth also save us by the resurrection of Jesus...

Figure=antitupon=representative, antitype, like figure

BAPTISM is a FIGURE, REPRESENTATIVE of the RESURRECTION of JESUS and it is the shed blood, death, burial and RESURRECTION of JESUS that has brought SALVATION unto MAN...NOT THE antitype, figure or baptismal representation...

FAITH into the works of JESUS is what Saves and BAPTISM is the PICTURE, ANTITYPE of he RESURRECTION!
 
Mar 28, 2014
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For if we have been planted together in the LIKENESS of HIS death, we shall also be in the LIKNESS of His resurrection.

LIKENESS=homoioma= a form, resemblance, likeness, similitude

Same word used to describe Jesus coming in the LIKNESS of sinful flesh although without SIN

The LIKE FIGURE whereunto even Baptism doth also save us by the resurrection of Jesus...

Figure=antitupon=representative, antitype, like figure

BAPTISM is a FIGURE, REPRESENTATIVE of the RESURRECTION of JESUS and it is the shed blood, death, burial and RESURRECTION of JESUS that has brought SALVATION unto MAN...NOT THE antitype, figure or baptismal representation...

FAITH into the works of JESUS is what Saves and BAPTISM is the PICTURE, ANTITYPE of he RESURRECTION!
in other words if you have not been planted together in the likeness of his death,you shall not be in the likeness of his resurrection....

in other words the figure of baptism saves you by the resurrection of Jesus...

if baptism is a figure / representative of the death and resurrection of Jesus...and the scripture says we have to be planted like that to be raised like him...how can you say baptism means nothing but a show......you are saying if you are not planted in the likeness of his death you are still raised in the likeness of his resurrection...the scripture does not teach that....of course it is the faith that saves ...but it is the action that shows you have the faith.....no action shows you don't believe....
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
in other words if you have not been planted together in the likeness of his death,you shall not be in the likeness of his resurrection....

in other words the figure of baptism saves you by the resurrection of Jesus...

if baptism is a figure / representative of the death and resurrection of Jesus...and the scripture says we have to be planted like that to be raised like him...how can you say baptism means nothing but a show......you are saying if you are not planted in the likeness of his death you are still raised in the likeness of his resurrection...the scripture does not teach that....of course it is the faith that saves ...but it is the action that shows you have the faith.....no action shows you don't believe....
Jesus was not immersed in water by some pastor. He hung on a cross. and his blood was sprinkled for our atonement (see lev 16) So you getting immersed in water is not you doing ANYTHING in the likeness of his death.

The only way we can do this, is humble ourselves and come to God. and Let God immerse us into his death. For it was God who took the sacrifice of Christ through Christ HUMBLING himself to the point of the cross.

It is not works which saves, it is faith. Faith (real) will produce works, proving one was saved. Thats all.
 
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Mar 28, 2014
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Jesus was not immersed in water by some pastor. He hung on a cross. and his blood was sprinkled for our atonement (see lev 16) So you getting immersed in water is not you doing ANYTHING in the likeness of his death.

The only way we can do this, is humble ourselves and come to God. and Let God immerse us into his death. For it was God who took the sacrifice of Christ through Christ HUMBLING himself to the point of the cross.

It is not works which saves, it is faith. Faith (real) will produce works, proving one was saved. Thats all.
that is what the scripture says....you say Jesus was not baptised/immersed in water?
So you getting immersed in water is not you doing ANYTHING in the likeness of his death.
are you ignorant .....
Romans 6:3-4American Standard Version (ASV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
[SUP]4 [/SUP]We were buried therefore with him through baptism unto death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.
 
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I did answer you, but you fail to acknowledge truth and to the point above.....baptism is to the N.T. what Circumcision is to the O.T.

The OUTWARD sign of an inward FAITH.....so....believe what you will....You trust water and works.....I trust Jesus and His faith.....one will get us in the true door...the other one leads to hell......!
you don't trust Jesus....he said to be baptised and do good works...
 
T

Tateej

Guest
There's too much confusion on the role of the Holy Spirit and Christ and translation errors coming from bad use of applying appropriate context fellas. Just a few baptized from above? Going through everything said this far baptism is to be immersed in something. Let's take Jesus and Jesus alone. He was the only perfect sacrifice for us for our atonement because the Big Man knew that more opportunities to fall or trip up would occur so He wanted to give people a better chance to obtain eternal paradise. Now, the perfect example was baptized, so because I don't want to follow a perfect example I rebel and find it not nessecary to try and be perfect as He was. GRANTED the context of baptism when John was baptizing and the effect it has after the crucifixion are a little bit different. The idea of baptism with John (pre-death Jesus) was to renew the mind and purifying ones self for the Lord and living for Him. IT DID NOT take away the animal sacrifice needed for attonement. So Christ's baptism was one of purifying Himself to God. Now today, baptism is a part of being saved according to Mark 16:16 saying he that believes AND (joining two actions here) be baptized (why? Well read the rest of the verse) because you shall be saved. Later in the verse why would it condemn an action of not doing so? Sure it only says he who does not believe, but then if I read that I need both to be saved them I can't have one and expect to be saved. Why would Philip even suggest to be baptized if it was not told to do so? Now I find commands to be baptized but who has the command to baptize? Well I find here there is no command for everyone to baptize others just as one preaches, I could say well everyone has to do it. Same with singing, if one does it everyone does it. Noted people decide what they want and don't want to do for service. How does this make baptizing others any different. It's performed by those who want to, have the authority for it, and want to continue doing it. Saying no to baptizing someone is not sinful. You may get questioned on it, but no direct command is given to do such. Does this mean it is required of us?
Word usage in the quoted text above, "if water baptism were a necessity in order to be saved, then one would think he would have went around baptizing every single person he witnessed to." I don't completely agree with this because some people need more time than others in order to even believe and making it a command does not mean that we would assume everyone would do it since its commanded. As we are free to do what we want to do being free moral agents. Tell me the last time you saw everyone doing the same command everytime because they had to. We know some people just don't do it because they don't want to or it's just not time yet. It doesn't make the action any less important to do on a personal level. Now if you show me ONE verse that says it is sinful to not baptize everyone you see, then I can agree with the statement above.
Now as for the context of the passage in question which people keep getting sidetracked on and is the reason this thread was created.. Understand the topic Paul is writting to the Corinthians is dealing with who is getting the praise and doing so with unity. Paul did not want them to say that they were saved through Paul, Christ was the sacrifice and took all the sins and blotted them out for the true and sincere repenting heart. Now thanking God that he did not baptize them, he's just saying I know my name is spread around the 'world' and if I did baptize you there'd be confusion with people saying Paul washed my sins away (thinking THROUGH Paul). He did not want to confuse them. He did not baptize many at all but yet even in the kingdom, God knows that people have better suited talents than othes so He wants us to use them to the best of our use. Paul may have not felt comfortable in doing it or it wasn't strickly on his mind to do and he had someone else who would not be seen as another testament or praise to anyone but God alone. Hope this help from a very tired man!
 
Dec 12, 2013
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you don't trust Jesus....he said to be baptised and do good works...
Dude your blind...Jesus said...THY FAITH HATH SAVED THEE (past tense) no water and no works...so keep on flappin them gums and trusting into something that does not save!
 
Dec 12, 2013
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There's too much confusion on the role of the Holy Spirit and Christ and translation errors coming from bad use of applying appropriate context fellas. Just a few baptized from above? Going through everything said this far baptism is to be immersed in something. Let's take Jesus and Jesus alone. He was the only perfect sacrifice for us for our atonement because the Big Man knew that more opportunities to fall or trip up would occur so He wanted to give people a better chance to obtain eternal paradise. Now, the perfect example was baptized, so because I don't want to follow a perfect example I rebel and find it not nessecary to try and be perfect as He was. GRANTED the context of baptism when John was baptizing and the effect it has after the crucifixion are a little bit different. The idea of baptism with John (pre-death Jesus) was to renew the mind and purifying ones self for the Lord and living for Him. IT DID NOT take away the animal sacrifice needed for attonement. So Christ's baptism was one of purifying Himself to God. Now today, baptism is a part of being saved according to Mark 16:16 saying he that believes AND (joining two actions here) be baptized (why? Well read the rest of the verse) because you shall be saved. Later in the verse why would it condemn an action of not doing so? Sure it only says he who does not believe, but then if I read that I need both to be saved them I can't have one and expect to be saved. Why would Philip even suggest to be baptized if it was not told to do so? Now I find commands to be baptized but who has the command to baptize? Well I find here there is no command for everyone to baptize others just as one preaches, I could say well everyone has to do it. Same with singing, if one does it everyone does it. Noted people decide what they want and don't want to do for service. How does this make baptizing others any different. It's performed by those who want to, have the authority for it, and want to continue doing it. Saying no to baptizing someone is not sinful. You may get questioned on it, but no direct command is given to do such. Does this mean it is required of us?
Word usage in the quoted text above, "if water baptism were a necessity in order to be saved, then one would think he would have went around baptizing every single person he witnessed to." I don't completely agree with this because some people need more time than others in order to even believe and making it a command does not mean that we would assume everyone would do it since its commanded. As we are free to do what we want to do being free moral agents. Tell me the last time you saw everyone doing the same command everytime because they had to. We know some people just don't do it because they don't want to or it's just not time yet. It doesn't make the action any less important to do on a personal level. Now if you show me ONE verse that says it is sinful to not baptize everyone you see, then I can agree with the statement above.
Now as for the context of the passage in question which people keep getting sidetracked on and is the reason this thread was created.. Understand the topic Paul is writting to the Corinthians is dealing with who is getting the praise and doing so with unity. Paul did not want them to say that they were saved through Paul, Christ was the sacrifice and took all the sins and blotted them out for the true and sincere repenting heart. Now thanking God that he did not baptize them, he's just saying I know my name is spread around the 'world' and if I did baptize you there'd be confusion with people saying Paul washed my sins away (thinking THROUGH Paul). He did not want to confuse them. He did not baptize many at all but yet even in the kingdom, God knows that people have better suited talents than othes so He wants us to use them to the best of our use. Paul may have not felt comfortable in doing it or it wasn't strickly on his mind to do and he had someone else who would not be seen as another testament or praise to anyone but God alone. Hope this help from a very tired man!
Do you pray to a picture or painting of Jesus? Was it the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus that won salvation for humanity or the painting of it? BAPTISM is a TYPE, a PICTURE so you trust the picture over the actual act?

THY FAITH HATH SAVED THEE JESUS said without WATER immersion and or WORKS attached...ONLY FAITH!

Faith saves and the picture and public testimony of that saving faith is in the PAINTING which has no power to save!

I suggest a study of the words diasozo and sozo as applied unto biblical salvation and Mark's use of save!
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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i keep seeing the name "newbirth" and thinking -- what exactly is the new birth?
maybe we ought to step back and consider it:

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God,
and
everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.

(1 John 5:1)

oh okay, faith in Christ new birth.

that makes sense then. it's not just a matter of washing dirt off the body (but the answer of a clear conscience toward God - familiar refrain, anyone?).
the believing heart is reformed by the Holy Spirit, which is the gift and assurance of God, and then this regenerate mind in love, seeking obedience confesses faith by public action and speech, and enters discipleship, becoming immersed into the name of Christ Jesus.

it's typical of all evangelicals to believe that life begins at conception, right?
so why the disconnect in logic here, thinking that the new spiritual life doesn't begin until after the babe has left the womb, the cord been cut and tied, and finally it's washed & scrubbed by the physician?
ya ken? spiritual life begins also at spiritual conception, IMHO.





 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
i keep seeing the name "newbirth" and thinking -- what exactly is the new birth?
maybe we ought to step back and consider it:

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God,
and
everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.

(1 John 5:1)

oh okay, faith in Christ new birth.

that makes sense then. it's not just a matter of washing dirt off the body (but the answer of a clear conscience toward God - familiar refrain, anyone?).
the believing heart is reformed by the Holy Spirit, which is the gift and assurance of God, and then this regenerate mind in love, seeking obedience confesses faith by public action and speech, and enters discipleship, becoming immersed into the name of Christ Jesus.

it's typical of all evangelicals to believe that life begins at conception, right?
so why the disconnect in logic here, thinking that the new spiritual life doesn't begin until after the babe has left the womb, the cord been cut and tied, and finally it's washed & scrubbed by the physician?
ya ken? spiritual life begins also at spiritual conception, IMHO.










No doubt and I agree.....Notice it does not say everyone that believes that Jesus is the Christ (and is immersed) has been born of God!

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God,
and
everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.
(1 John 5:1)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,749
13,155
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No doubt and I agree.....Notice it does not say everyone that believes that Jesus is the Christ (and is immersed) has been born of God!

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God,
and
everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.
(1 John 5:1)

haha yes, i noticed that!

i was thinking i would just wait for Atwood to come along and point it out :D
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
that is what the scripture says....you say Jesus was not baptised/immersed in water?

So you think that is what saved you? Jesus asked his disciples if they could be baptized with the batism he was being baptised with. are you honestly going to say he meant his baptism of John?


are you ignorant .....
Romans 6:3-4American Standard Version (ASV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
[SUP]4 [/SUP]We were buried therefore with him through baptism unto death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.
That says baptized INTO his DEATH, No mention of water there. So why would you force a word into a passage when it is not there? It also says that because he was risen, We have the ability to walk in newness of life. There i a huge difference in saying we are born again to walk in newness because of the ressurection of Christ, than saying because we have been baptized in water.

Should we give credit to God and his work. or ourselves in our work?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
you don't trust Jesus....he said to be baptised and do good works...
Yep he did. He said that to his children, Not to his enemies, Intil you are born again, you are his enemy, not his child. If your doing those things to be saved, you no better than the jews condemned by Paul and the author of Hebrews.
 
E

elf3

Guest
Some people say "listen to the words of Jesus." Which yes we should do also along with all of Scripture. Not once does Jesus our Lord and Savior say that we must be baptized to be saved.
 
Mar 28, 2014
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So you think that is what saved you? Jesus asked his disciples if they could be baptized with the batism he was being baptised with. are you honestly going to say he meant his baptism of John?




That says baptized INTO his DEATH, No mention of water there. So why would you force a word into a passage when it is not there? It also says that because he was risen, We have the ability to walk in newness of life. There i a huge difference in saying we are born again to walk in newness because of the ressurection of Christ, than saying because we have been baptized in water.

Should we give credit to God and his work. or ourselves in our work?
you are ignorant ....you bring a topic of another context to support your point... let say you prepare a bath an tell your kid to go take a bath...two hours later you notice the bath was not touched...so you point to the water and ask why did you not take a bath...he looks at you and say ...there was no mention of water...or someone came into a lot of money and tells you and tells you I am bathing in money these days ....do you go open the taps to see if money comes out.???

vs 4 We were buried therefore with him through baptism unto death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.

what word is being forced into the passage?...it is you who are the one trying to take baptism out of the passage...
DC understands what baptism is and what it represents ....it is just that he does not believe that Christ say you must do it ..as it represents your new birth by water ...planted together in the LIKENESS of HIS death...you die....we shall also be in the LIKNESS of His resurrection....new liffe
Originally Posted by dcontroversal


For if we have been planted together in the LIKENESS of HIS death, we shall also be in the LIKNESS of His resurrection.

LIKENESS=homoioma= a form, resemblance, likeness, similitude

Same word used to describe Jesus coming in the LIKNESS of sinful flesh although without SIN

The LIKE FIGURE whereunto even Baptism doth also save us by the resurrection of Jesus...

Figure=antitupon=representative, antitype, like figure

BAPTISM is a FIGURE, REPRESENTATIVE of the RESURRECTION of JESUS and it is the shed blood, death, burial and RESURRECTION of JESUS that has brought SALVATION unto MAN
...NOT THE antitype, figure or baptismal representation...

FAITH into the works of JESUS is what Saves and BAPTISM is the PICTURE, ANTITYPE of he RESURRECTION!





[/QUOTE]
 
Mar 28, 2014
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Some people say "listen to the words of Jesus." Which yes we should do also along with all of Scripture. Not once does Jesus our Lord and Savior say that we must be baptized to be saved.
Mark 16:15-16King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,749
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you are ignorant ....you bring a topic of another context to support your point... let say you prepare a bath an tell your kid to go take a bath...two hours later you notice the bath was not touched...so you point to the water and ask why did you not take a bath...
is that the point at which you would disown your children?

when i was a baby, my Father washed me, knowing that i had neither the understanding or the ability to do for myself what needed to be done.

 
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Yep he did. He said that to his children, Not to his enemies, Intil you are born again, you are his enemy, not his child. If your doing those things to be saved, you no better than the jews condemned by Paul and the author of Hebrews.
you claim to be his child...he says...[SUP]16 [/SUP]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.......but you say don't believe and be baptised to be saved ...because I am no better than the Jews...It is OK to believe ..but it is wrong to believe and be baptised ....even though Christ himself said .....He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved
 
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is that the point at which you would disown your children?

when i was a baby, my Father washed me, knowing that i had neither the understanding or the ability to do for myself what needed to be done.

that would be the point where I would realize something is terribly wrong....and I do hope you are not still that stage...