Question for Hizikyah, or Others
- Thread starter p_rehbein
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
with God all things are possible...God says I can Jesus did and he said follow him...if Paul could ...so can I ...we both share the same Spirit... and even if I should fail that does not mean it cannot be done....
Philippians 4:12-13King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
Philippians 4:12-13King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
eternal life is in Christ....if you are not abiding in Christ you cannot have eternal life....how do you abide in Christ???? not only by thinking as he did ...but living as he did...did he live as an example and died for us so that we can live like him.....or did he live our life for us and died for us to live in sin???
E
Wrong, He says whoever has believed in him will never die and has in possession eternal life.
if it can be lost, then Jesus lied. because they can still die, and do not have in possession a life jesus said was eternal in length (never ending)
Yet that is not what it says, It says whoever believes (it had to be present tense at one time in his life) will never perish (never die) but has in his possession eternal life.
Again, if one can still die, he does not have eternal life, If anything he has just plain life.
the words never and eternal are the key words here, you make never and eternal not mean what they literally mean in your belief that they can stop .
even if you put it that way ....believes is in the present...we are always in the present so we must always be believing to have eternal life...so if you stop believing you cannot have that eternal life.....you cannot depend on your past belief for present or future eternal life...he who believes now have it now.....it does not cover unbelief tomorrow...
oh it is considered....it is just the wise know the way to God...unless you think if he cleanses you from all unrighteousness you still have sins...
1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
especially the part that states that someone who denies the fact that they have PRESENST SIN is a LAIR and has NO TRUTH in HIM....
So which is it....the ones who teach you can loose it say or imply that they do not sin and or walk perfect ALL the time before the throne or.....It is the spirit (God's kingdom is spiritual) that is born again, does NOT SIN, is eternally saved, secure and justified in JESUS while being bound in a body that fails every day in some form or fashion!
So which is it....the ones who teach you can loose it say or imply that they do not sin and or walk perfect ALL the time before the throne or.....It is the spirit (God's kingdom is spiritual) that is born again, does NOT SIN, is eternally saved, secure and justified in JESUS while being bound in a body that fails every day in some form or fashion!
S
How is that Paul did what he did not want to do but didn't do what he wanted? Our righteousness is in Christ...not because we don't sin. I would argue than a man rarely if ever does ANYTHING from a purely enlightened unselfish purpose.....and if you think you do, you've got yourself thoroughly fooled.
There you go twisting the facts to fit your needs. The discussion centered around whether there are intentional or unintentional sins. I argued from Numbers there are to which you countered from Leviticus that all sins are covered on the day of atonement for the assembly of Israel. I then pointed out defiant sinners were removed from Israel and the atonement wouldn't apply to them.
Then you say "nice try"? Pretty successful try. They were cast out because their defiance blasphemed God.
John also said in his first epistle, 1:[SUP]10 [/SUP]If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us. and I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. (NASB)
So yeah, a Christian may sin. However, John differentiates between sins.
In chapter 5 John writes,[SUP]16 [/SUP]If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. [SUP]17 [/SUP]All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death.(NASB)
Here John classifies two types of sin: sin leading to death and sin not leading to death. Based on the rest of his writing in 1 John a sin leading to death would be denying that Jesus is the Christ. Denying Jesus is the Christ is a pretty defiant act. Pretty consistent with Numbers 15.
The sin lists in the NT are examples of defiant sin and in some cases parallel OT sins that would separate one from atonement.
A Christian shouldn't excuse sin in their lives, but rather confess it as our Lord taught. And if he/she finds himself/herself practicing a defiant sin found on the lists, he or she should confess them, ask for forgiveness and lean on the power of the Holy Spirit to overcome them.
Then you say "nice try"? Pretty successful try. They were cast out because their defiance blasphemed God.
John also said in his first epistle, 1:[SUP]10 [/SUP]If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us. and I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. (NASB)
So yeah, a Christian may sin. However, John differentiates between sins.
In chapter 5 John writes,[SUP]16 [/SUP]If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. [SUP]17 [/SUP]All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death.(NASB)
Here John classifies two types of sin: sin leading to death and sin not leading to death. Based on the rest of his writing in 1 John a sin leading to death would be denying that Jesus is the Christ. Denying Jesus is the Christ is a pretty defiant act. Pretty consistent with Numbers 15.
The sin lists in the NT are examples of defiant sin and in some cases parallel OT sins that would separate one from atonement.
A Christian shouldn't excuse sin in their lives, but rather confess it as our Lord taught. And if he/she finds himself/herself practicing a defiant sin found on the lists, he or she should confess them, ask for forgiveness and lean on the power of the Holy Spirit to overcome them.
let us judge ourselves lest we judge someone wrong...because it for that very purpose Christ died...that we through the spirit prove the devil wrong...he says we cannot do it God says we can...
it is a clear indication of how we should walk....
Galatians 5:16
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
1 Peter 4:2
That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
it is a clear indication of how we should walk....
Galatians 5:16
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
1 Peter 4:2
That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
V
Once again, out of context. You simply refuse to hear sound counsel, and continue to use selected verses as proof-text for a false doctrine. In this passage in particular, you ignore the verses that qualify Paul's statement and absolutely negate the very argument you attempt to use his writing to make!
Note, the bolded and underlined segments of the passage state that it our hope that is in Christ. "Hope" is the Greek ἐλπίζω -- transliterated elpizo -- meaning, in the sense of saving faith, awaiting the blessed assurance the believer has for salvation. The passage says that Jesus is the Savior of all men, and especially believers. This means that God's compassion and long-suffering mercy prevents immediate and final judgment for unbelievers, and that He, through Christ, has locked in the salvation of those who have believed on The Son's shed blood and resurrection as sufficient for forgiveness of sin and for eternal life. Finally, the passage clearly states that the teaching of Christ, His unstained character as evidenced in Timothy's demeanor and teaching are examples for the Ephesian congregation to follow -- not from condemnation as you would force it to read, but from the pollutions of the world which will detract from sanctification and Christian witness.
Clearly this passage teaches there are no works, no behaviors, no piety, and certainly no sinlessness required for salvation. Believers are saved by faith, not works, not abstinence from sin, not from pious character. As a result of that salvation, we are sanctified -- we are set apart as holy, God's priesthood; we are constantly prodded by the Holy Spirit towards righteousness, but can never, ever achieve it on our own, but only in Christ's righteousness imputed to us; we are destined as believers -- without fear of forfeiture -- to be truly made holy before a righteous and grace-giving God at the moment of our death, or the rapture to come.
Get this through you head: You can do nothing to save yourself, nor to "keep yourself saved"!! Any opinion opposed to these facts is arrogance personified. Nor can you do anything to forfeit your salvation. Read Isaiah with understanding!
God had brought destruction on Israel, yet Isaiah knows they can still seek after Him for forgiveness. The destruction is no rejection, it is chastisement! And Isaiah continues on in chapter 65 to quote God as promising He relents and does not condemn for sin among faithful people.
Only a fool trusts in his own works for salvation. That is of the Lord alone. Deny it, and you deny the Gospel.
1 Timothy 4, NASB
7 But have nothing to do with worldly fables fit only for old women. On the other hand, discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness;
8 for bodily discipline is only of little profit, but godliness is profitable for all things, since it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come.
9 It is a trustworthy statement deserving full acceptance.
10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
11 Prescribe and teach these things.
12 Let no one look down on your youthfulness, but rather in speech, conduct, love, faith and purity, show yourself an example of those who believe.
13 Until I come, give attention to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation and teaching.
14 Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery.
15 Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all.
16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you. [Emphasis mine]
7 But have nothing to do with worldly fables fit only for old women. On the other hand, discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness;
8 for bodily discipline is only of little profit, but godliness is profitable for all things, since it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come.
9 It is a trustworthy statement deserving full acceptance.
10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
11 Prescribe and teach these things.
12 Let no one look down on your youthfulness, but rather in speech, conduct, love, faith and purity, show yourself an example of those who believe.
13 Until I come, give attention to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation and teaching.
14 Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery.
15 Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all.
16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you. [Emphasis mine]
Note, the bolded and underlined segments of the passage state that it our hope that is in Christ. "Hope" is the Greek ἐλπίζω -- transliterated elpizo -- meaning, in the sense of saving faith, awaiting the blessed assurance the believer has for salvation. The passage says that Jesus is the Savior of all men, and especially believers. This means that God's compassion and long-suffering mercy prevents immediate and final judgment for unbelievers, and that He, through Christ, has locked in the salvation of those who have believed on The Son's shed blood and resurrection as sufficient for forgiveness of sin and for eternal life. Finally, the passage clearly states that the teaching of Christ, His unstained character as evidenced in Timothy's demeanor and teaching are examples for the Ephesian congregation to follow -- not from condemnation as you would force it to read, but from the pollutions of the world which will detract from sanctification and Christian witness.
Clearly this passage teaches there are no works, no behaviors, no piety, and certainly no sinlessness required for salvation. Believers are saved by faith, not works, not abstinence from sin, not from pious character. As a result of that salvation, we are sanctified -- we are set apart as holy, God's priesthood; we are constantly prodded by the Holy Spirit towards righteousness, but can never, ever achieve it on our own, but only in Christ's righteousness imputed to us; we are destined as believers -- without fear of forfeiture -- to be truly made holy before a righteous and grace-giving God at the moment of our death, or the rapture to come.
Get this through you head: You can do nothing to save yourself, nor to "keep yourself saved"!! Any opinion opposed to these facts is arrogance personified. Nor can you do anything to forfeit your salvation. Read Isaiah with understanding!
Isaiah 64
6 For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
7 There is no one who calls on Your name, Who arouses himself to take hold of You; For You have hidden Your face from us And have delivered us into the power of our iniquities.
8 But now, O LORD, You are our Father, We are the clay, and You our potter; And all of us are the work of Your hand.
9 Do not be angry beyond measure, O LORD, Nor remember iniquity forever; Behold, look now, all of us are Your people.
10 Your holy cities have become a wilderness, Zion has become a wilderness, Jerusalem a desolation.
11 Our holy and beautiful house, Where our fathers praised You, Has been burned by fire; And all our precious things have become a ruin.
12 Will You restrain Yourself at these things, O LORD? Will You keep silent and afflict us beyond measure?
6 For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
7 There is no one who calls on Your name, Who arouses himself to take hold of You; For You have hidden Your face from us And have delivered us into the power of our iniquities.
8 But now, O LORD, You are our Father, We are the clay, and You our potter; And all of us are the work of Your hand.
9 Do not be angry beyond measure, O LORD, Nor remember iniquity forever; Behold, look now, all of us are Your people.
10 Your holy cities have become a wilderness, Zion has become a wilderness, Jerusalem a desolation.
11 Our holy and beautiful house, Where our fathers praised You, Has been burned by fire; And all our precious things have become a ruin.
12 Will You restrain Yourself at these things, O LORD? Will You keep silent and afflict us beyond measure?
God had brought destruction on Israel, yet Isaiah knows they can still seek after Him for forgiveness. The destruction is no rejection, it is chastisement! And Isaiah continues on in chapter 65 to quote God as promising He relents and does not condemn for sin among faithful people.
Isaiah 65
1 "I permitted Myself to be sought by those who did not ask for Me; I permitted Myself to be found by those who did not seek Me. I said, 'Here am I, here am I,' To a nation which did not call on My name.
2 "I have spread out My hands all day long to a rebellious people, Who walk in the way which is not good, following their own thoughts,
3 A people who continually provoke Me to My face, Offering sacrifices in gardens and burning incense on bricks;
4 Who sit among graves and spend the night in secret places; Who eat swine's flesh, And the broth of unclean meat is in their pots.
5 "Who say, 'Keep to yourself, do not come near me, For I am holier than you!' These are smoke in My nostrils, A fire that burns all the day.
6 "Behold, it is written before Me, I will not keep silent, but I will repay; I will even repay into their bosom,
7 Both their own iniquities and the iniquities of their fathers together," says the LORD. "Because they have burned incense on the mountains And scorned Me on the hills, Therefore I will measure their former work into their bosom."
8 Thus says the LORD, "As the new wine is found in the cluster, And one says, 'Do not destroy it, for there is benefit in it,' So I will act on behalf of My servants In order not to destroy all of them.
9 "I will bring forth offspring from Jacob, And an heir of My mountains from Judah; Even My chosen ones shall inherit it, And My servants will dwell there.
10 "Sharon will be a pasture land for flocks, And the valley of Achor a resting place for herds, For My people who seek Me.
11 "But you who forsake the LORD, Who forget My holy mountain, Who set a table for Fortune, And who fill cups with mixed wine for Destiny,
12 I will destine you for the sword, And all of you will bow down to the slaughter. Because I called, but you did not answer; I spoke, but you did not hear. And you did evil in My sight And chose that in which I did not delight."
1 "I permitted Myself to be sought by those who did not ask for Me; I permitted Myself to be found by those who did not seek Me. I said, 'Here am I, here am I,' To a nation which did not call on My name.
2 "I have spread out My hands all day long to a rebellious people, Who walk in the way which is not good, following their own thoughts,
3 A people who continually provoke Me to My face, Offering sacrifices in gardens and burning incense on bricks;
4 Who sit among graves and spend the night in secret places; Who eat swine's flesh, And the broth of unclean meat is in their pots.
5 "Who say, 'Keep to yourself, do not come near me, For I am holier than you!' These are smoke in My nostrils, A fire that burns all the day.
6 "Behold, it is written before Me, I will not keep silent, but I will repay; I will even repay into their bosom,
7 Both their own iniquities and the iniquities of their fathers together," says the LORD. "Because they have burned incense on the mountains And scorned Me on the hills, Therefore I will measure their former work into their bosom."
8 Thus says the LORD, "As the new wine is found in the cluster, And one says, 'Do not destroy it, for there is benefit in it,' So I will act on behalf of My servants In order not to destroy all of them.
9 "I will bring forth offspring from Jacob, And an heir of My mountains from Judah; Even My chosen ones shall inherit it, And My servants will dwell there.
10 "Sharon will be a pasture land for flocks, And the valley of Achor a resting place for herds, For My people who seek Me.
11 "But you who forsake the LORD, Who forget My holy mountain, Who set a table for Fortune, And who fill cups with mixed wine for Destiny,
12 I will destine you for the sword, And all of you will bow down to the slaughter. Because I called, but you did not answer; I spoke, but you did not hear. And you did evil in My sight And chose that in which I did not delight."
Only a fool trusts in his own works for salvation. That is of the Lord alone. Deny it, and you deny the Gospel.
Last edited:
E
no, this is wrong,
if you have eternal life (which the passage states clearly) and you are in a state you will never die. then you must interpret eternal to be eternal, and never to be never. if it can be lost, the word never and eternal has no meaning whatsoever. they mean nothing. period.
your focusing on one word, which "MAY" be true in some instances, and "MAY" not be true in other instances. thus you must read the whole context to see which instance is relevant to the interpretation.
no to mention, Jesus did not say if you continue believing, thus this too destroys your argument,
ad to take it further, what did Jesus say next?
he who believes is in a state of not being condemned, he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in god, no mention of one time believing, and later stopping believing.
and again I ask, why would you stop believing? when has god fail to live up to your trust or anyone elses for that matter?
for that is the only reason people stop trusting someone,
if you have eternal life (which the passage states clearly) and you are in a state you will never die. then you must interpret eternal to be eternal, and never to be never. if it can be lost, the word never and eternal has no meaning whatsoever. they mean nothing. period.
your focusing on one word, which "MAY" be true in some instances, and "MAY" not be true in other instances. thus you must read the whole context to see which instance is relevant to the interpretation.
no to mention, Jesus did not say if you continue believing, thus this too destroys your argument,
ad to take it further, what did Jesus say next?
he who believes is in a state of not being condemned, he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in god, no mention of one time believing, and later stopping believing.
and again I ask, why would you stop believing? when has god fail to live up to your trust or anyone elses for that matter?
for that is the only reason people stop trusting someone,