Works

[KennethC]

Ok Ken, I agree that Good works is proof of salvation.
Every one who has eternal will do good works, some more than others.

But answer these questions.
Do you believe water baptism is necessary for salvation?
Do you believe that a person can choose to walk away from the gift eternal life?
Do you believe eternal means eternal or is it conditional?
Do you believe a Holy and Just God would take back the gift of eternal life once he has given it?

I will answer these questions with one word--------NO

What say you Ken?

First question) Jesus showed in John 3 that is part of the born again process, and what did Jesus say about those who are not born again ? He said nobody is born again will see the kingdom of God !!!

There is an exception made in the Word of God for death bed confessions, as His mercy will cover them in those situations.

Paul and Peter both show do not use examples like that to be disobedient to His commands.

Do you think a person can be always and consistently disobedient to Jesus commands and be saved ???


2nd question) Yes I do because the Word of God says that eternal life only exists "IN" Christ, outside of the faith there is no security of eternal life. If there is then you have unbelievers saved !!!

Jesus said those who do not produce fruit will be cut off, gathered and cast into the fire and burned.

Matthew 24:10-13, Acts 20:28-31, 2 Peter 2:20-22, 1 Timothy 4:1, James 5, and many other places speak of this falling or departing from the faith and in those passages the ending is not eternal life for those !!!


3rd question) Eternal life only exists in Christ, not outside of Christ !!!

4th question) He does not take it back the person rejects it when they walk away !!!

This final question goes back to what we said before putting it on God instead of putting the blame where it really belongs, on the person who walked away.

Just because a gift is free does not mean it is yours, you still have to accept it and take possession of it or reject it !!!

 

[3Scoreand10]

First question) Jesus showed in John 3 that is part of the born again process, and what did Jesus say about those who are not born again ? He said nobody is born again will see the kingdom of God !!!

There is an exception made in the Word of God for death bed confessions, as His mercy will cover them in those situations.

Paul and Peter both show do not use examples like that to be disobedient to His commands.

Do you think a person can be always and consistently disobedient to Jesus commands and be saved ???


2nd question) Yes I do because the Word of God says that eternal life only exists "IN" Christ, outside of the faith there is no security of eternal life. If there is then you have unbelievers saved !!!

Jesus said those who do not produce fruit will be cut off, gathered and cast into the fire and burned.

Matthew 24:10-13, Acts 20:28-31, 2 Peter 2:20-22, 1 Timothy 4:1, James 5, and many other places speak of this falling or departing from the faith and in those passages the ending is not eternal life for those !!!


3rd question) Eternal life only exists in Christ, not outside of Christ !!!

4th question) He does not take it back the person rejects it when they walk away !!!

This final question goes back to what we said before putting it on God instead of putting the blame where it really belongs, on the person who walked away.

Just because a gift is free does not mean it is yours, you still have to accept it and take possession of it or reject it !!!

I rest my case!
The proof is in your answers.
Baptism is works.
Choosing to keep or walk away from your salvation is works.
Eternal life is conditional on what you do---Works
When God gives gifts you must accept and take possession or reject it---Works.

Where is Jesus and His sacrifice?
Where is simple child like faith?
Where is obeidence based on love not on doing?
Where is the assurance that is totally in Jesus and not one speck in self?

And to answer your question in blue.
A true believer will never walk consistenly in disobedience, The chastising of God will not allow it.
Any one who is able to do that does not lose his salvation. He never was saved.

 

[KennethC]

I rest my case!
The proof is in your answers.
Baptism is works.
Choosing to keep or walk away from your salvation is works.
Eternal life is conditional on what you do---Works
When God gives gifts you must accept and take possession or reject it---Works.

Where is Jesus and His sacrifice?
Where is simple child like faith?
Where is obeidence based on love not on doing?
Where is the assurance that is totally in Jesus and not one speck in self?

And to answer your question in blue.
A true believer will never walk consistenly in disobedience, The chastising of God will not allow it.
Any one who is able to do that does not lose his salvation. He never was saved.

The problem with your understanding is that you have not been taught how to distinguish between self works and works of the faith which are His righteousness.

This shows by you speaking on baptism as if it is a self work !!!

That is a work of the faith that is done in His righteousness because it is done in love to Him !!!

You final sentence is a cop out and does not align with what Jesus showed in the parable "Sower and the Seed".

You still can't get over looking at the works instead of looking at what those works prove !!!!

Faith not works is what saves !!!

And continuing in that faith is what determines if one ends up with salvation or not, as Apostle Paul clearly says in order to receive eternal life we have to hold on to that hope tell the end !!!


Jesus was sacrificed on the cross for our sins, but He is not still hanging on that cross.

If you are still looking back on the cross then you are not moving forward and maturing in the faith.

Jesus said faith as a child because a child is obedient and does without questioning why !!!

Love is not an inactive word, it is an action word !!!

I said previously that the assurance is only in Christ, outside of Christ there is no assurance.

When a person has fallen away from the faith (which the bible says multiple times will happen) they do not have that assurance of salvation any more !!!

1 John 2-4 Apostle John clearly shows there how a person can know if they have assurance of salvation in Christ, and John clearly shows it is by our actions !!!

 

[KennethC]

I rest my case!
The proof is in your answers.
Baptism is works.
Choosing to keep or walk away from your salvation is works.
Eternal life is conditional on what you do---Works
When God gives gifts you must accept and take possession or reject it---Works.

Where is Jesus and His sacrifice?
Where is simple child like faith?
Where is obeidence based on love not on doing?
Where is the assurance that is totally in Jesus and not one speck in self?

And to answer your question in blue.
A true believer will never walk consistenly in disobedience, The chastising of God will not allow it.
Any one who is able to do that does not lose his salvation. He never was saved.

Also you kind of wormed your way around the question in blue, so I will ask again in another way:

Can you deny Jesus commands and be saved ??? Simple yes or no !!!

 

[Grace777x70]

I believe in keeping the Lord's commands...

1 John 3:23-24 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

 

[KennethC]

I believe in keeping the Lord's commands...

1 John 3:23-24 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

These are not the only two commandments given by the Lord Jesus though, these two only encompass the others, meaning if you obey these two you will automatically obey the others !!!

Apostle Paul made this clear in Romans 13:9-10.................

 

[coby]

I rest my case!
The proof is in your answers.
Baptism is works.
Choosing to keep or walk away from your salvation is works.
Eternal life is conditional on what you do---Works
When God gives gifts you must accept and take possession or reject it---Works.

Where is Jesus and His sacrifice?
Where is simple child like faith?
Where is obeidence based on love not on doing?
Where is the assurance that is totally in Jesus and not one speck in self?

And to answer your question in blue.
A true believer will never walk consistenly in disobedience, The chastising of God will not allow it.
Any one who is able to do that does not lose his salvation. He never was saved.

He never was saved. How do you know? I was saved. I'm not nuts. It's like me telling you now that you are not saved. Total nonsense. It's a stupid doctrin. Show me in the Bible where that is. Have you ever been to Holland? It's Sodom and Gomorrah here. I can't post on a Dutch 'christian' forum. That's why I post here. Go to a Dutch christian dating site. There is one or two men who will keep their hands with them on a first date.
Go to an evangelical church. So many people who were really saved wanted a partner, but there are almost no people left who can wait until marriage, so one after the other leaves church and lives together with someone. They were saved. Some still think they're saved. I thought that too before I fell in sin that it could never ever happen to me and that those people who did that were not really saved. It's just not true.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Works do not save or maintain salvation !!!

They are the product and "proof" of one who is truly saved in Christ unto salvation.

Salvation is a process, not a one time event !!!

The gifts of the Holy Spirit still exist today, all of them, yet we do have some that are not doing these gifts along the lines of how the bible says they should and will be done.

And the said thing is that these fake versions are being defended by some Christians instead of rebuked as they should be.

Speaking out loud in tongues without an interpreter, making a show out of it, using them for gain, and tempted God in the process by misusing what was given. These are all false versions that should not be supported or defended !!!

True healings do not happen all the time or whenever the person wants to do it, it is done by the Holy Spirit through the person when it serves God's will.

Some people are left not healed for a learning process for growth and so they can be a testimony to other going through the same situations.

Believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit, but do not follow after charlatans !!!

You can not make this statement, then claim works are not a means to be saved..

The ONLY way works can be left out of the means to salvation is that salvation is a one time event..

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to eternally-gratefull again.

 

[3Scoreand10]

Also you kind of wormed your way around the question in blue, so I will ask again in another way:

Can you deny Jesus commands and be saved ??? Simple yes or no !!!

I answered your as asked question.
And who said anything about dening His commands?
There is a big difference in keeping the commands and denying them.
I strive every day to keep all His commandments because I love Him, not to keep my salvation as you seen to do.
But anything I do good is not me but Him working through me.
ALL my works are as filthy rags
There is only one commandment that if rejected leads to Hell and that is to reject the command to believe.
Not just believe in facts but to believe with all my heart and with complete assurance that when I place my hope for eternal life in His hands I am secure forever and no man not even me can take away that eternal life.
It is imposible for anyone to keep all the commands of of Jesus all the time as long as we are having to contend with this body of sinful flesh we are confined to.
But a true believer will strive to do all His commandments.
I so look forward to a new body and this battle has ended.

 

[Grace777x70]

The law of love covers all them.....we have 2 commandments as shown in 1 John 3:23-24...I realize your need to make more as it goes with your religious beliefs...but I'll stick with John's version and not 1 KennthC 3:23-24..there is no Book of KennethC.....sorry ...I believe you really do mean well...

Romans 13:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

These are not the only two commandments given by the Lord Jesus though, these two only encompass the others, meaning if you obey these two you will automatically obey the others !!!

Apostle Paul made this clear in Romans 13:9-10.................

 

[KennethC]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to eternally-gratefull again.

You wanted to rep somebody for not proving another wrong, but still bearing false witness on another !!!

Defending a lie is just as sinful as the one who lied !!!

I will pray for you !!!

 

[KennethC]

I answered your as asked question.
And who said anything about dening His commands?
There is a big difference in keeping the commands and denying them.
I strive every day to keep all His commandments because I love Him, not to keep my salvation as you seen to do.
But anything I do good is not me but Him working through me.
ALL my works are as filthy rags
There is only one commandment that if rejected leads to Hell and that is to reject the command to believe.
Not just believe in facts but to believe with all my heart and with complete assurance that when I place my hope for eternal life in His hands I am secure forever and no man not even me can take away that eternal life.
It is imposible for anyone to keep all the commands of of Jesus all the time as long as we are having to contend with this body of sinful flesh we are confined to.
But a true believer will strive to do all His commandments.
I so look forward to a new body and this battle has ended.

First we were talking about baptism and Jesus commanded baptism, that is why I asked the question:

Can you deny to do His commandments and be saved ??? Simple yes or no please !!!

Second the good works being as filthy rags is before conversion, not the good works done in the faith !!!


I understand that we all do still mess up and sin at times, but this is not speaking of that.

This is speaking on those who state they don't have to be baptized, they continue constantly to deny that command yet claim to be a believer in Christ !!! Can a person deny to obey His commands and be saved ???


Jesus says no, Paul says no, and John says no: What do you say ???

 

[KennethC]

The law of love covers all them.....we have 2 commandments as shown in 1 John 3:23-24...I realize your need to make more as it goes with your religious beliefs...but I'll stick with John's version and not 1 KennthC 3:23-24..there is no Book of KennethC.....sorry ...I believe you really do mean well...

Romans 13:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

There was more and the Apostle Paul shows that, and why do you only list verse 10 ???

Take a step back and look at verse 9 that goes with it:

(Romans 13:9) For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

When you go back to Jesus teachings you will see that He commanded many things for believers to do, not just two !!!

He commanded repentance.......

He commanded baptism........

He commanded confession..........

He commanded forgiving others.........

He commanded to keep all His teachings......

And the list goes on as it has been broken down that Jesus gave 50 commands, and that was only in His teachings. Yet He told the original Apostles He still had even more to tell them but they could not bear it yet !!!

 

[3Scoreand10]

First we were talking about baptism and Jesus commanded baptism, that is why I asked the question:

Can you deny to do His commandments and be saved ??? Simple yes or no please !!!

Second the good works being as filthy rags is before conversion, not the good works done in the faith !!!


I understand that we all do still mess up and sin at times, but this is not speaking of that.

This is speaking on those who state they don't have to be baptized, they continue constantly to deny that command yet claim to be a believer in Christ !!! Can a person deny to obey His commands and be saved ???


Jesus says no, Paul says no, and John says no: What do you say ???

Baptism is the first act of obedience after salvation but is not necessary for salvation.
You have stated that Baptism is necessary for everyone EXCEPT----------
What scripture do you base the except on?
There has always been one way to have eternal life. God never changed. there is no exceptions.
That way is to believe God. Adam believed, Noal believed, Abraham believed, Moses believed, David believed, the Apostles believed, I believed.
By your definition of salvation, there are a lot of people lost and bound for Hell on CC.

 

[coby]

First we were talking about baptism and Jesus commanded baptism, that is why I asked the question:

Can you deny to do His commandments and be saved ??? Simple yes or no please !!!

Second the good works being as filthy rags is before conversion, not the good works done in the faith !!!


I understand that we all do still mess up and sin at times, but this is not speaking of that.

This is speaking on those who state they don't have to be baptized, they continue constantly to deny that command yet claim to be a believer in Christ !!! Can a person deny to obey His commands and be saved ???


Jesus says no, Paul says no, and John says no: What do you say ???

Some people don't understand that they need to be baptized, still in the meantime they're saved. My friend was baptized as a baby in a Dutch reformed church. She first needed someone to give her good teaching about it so the Lord could convince her. She was saved already. My kids are saved but their dad thinks they have to wait until they're 12. Nothing we can do about it. I was saved but my dad got furious if I would be baptized and I lived at home so I waited 2 or 3 years. Not good I know but I believe I was saved.

 

[KennethC]

Baptism is the first act of obedience after salvation but is not necessary for salvation.
You have stated that Baptism is necessary for everyone EXCEPT----------
What scripture do you base the except on?
There has always been one way to have eternal life. God never changed. there is no exceptions.
That way is to believe God. Adam believed, Noal believed, Abraham believed, Moses believed, David believed, the Apostles believed, I believed.
By your definition of salvation, there are a lot of people lost and bound for Hell on CC.

See that big word in red, that is your misconception !!!

Nowhere does the bible say these things come after salvation, it says they "ACCOMPANY" salvation.

Meaning that these things go hand and hand at the same time as salvation, they are part of the process, as salvation is a ongoing continuous process in the faith. Not a one time event !!!

Yes there is only way to salvation and that is through Jesus Christ, and one who does not have the time to live their life out for Him (death bed confession) such as the thief on the cross. The Lord will show mercy in those cases and still save them !!!

The Apostles immediately commanded baptism in Acts, they did not do away with it or treat it as unnecessary, and they did not say it was okay to wait to do it !!! Philip made it clear that only those who believe with all their heart, soul, and mind were to do this, or it was a false !!!

As for your mention of the OT saints yes they did believe, but nowhere was their belief shown as inactive but instead was full of obedience !!!

Also Apostle Paul said they were baptized in 1 Corinthians 10:1-2.............

Some people don't understand that they need to be baptized, still in the meantime they're saved. My friend was baptized as a baby in a Dutch reformed church. She first needed someone to give her good teaching about it so the Lord could convince her. She was saved already. My kids are saved but their dad thinks they have to wait until they're 12. Nothing we can do about it. I was saved but my dad got furious if I would be baptized and I lived at home so I waited 2 or 3 years. Not good I know but I believe I was saved.

The bible does not support infant baptism, that is a RCC construct !!!

During baptism the person has to make the conscience choice to be a follower of Christ, a baby can not make that decision.

As I showed above the Apostles in Acts never downplayed baptism and even done away with as it is done by some today, as you can easily read how they immediately commanded to be done.

I do not see one instance in the bible where it was done away with, or where an apostle told the person take your time and do it when you feel like it !!! Or even said not needed !!!

 

[3Scoreand10]

See that big word in red, that is your misconception !!!

Nowhere does the bible say these things come after salvation, it says they "ACCOMPANY" salvation.

Meaning that these things go hand and hand at the same time as salvation, they are part of the process, as salvation is a ongoing continuous process in the faith. Not a one time event !!!

Yes there is only way to salvation and that is through Jesus Christ, and one who does not have the time to live their life out for Him (death bed confession) such as the thief on the cross. The Lord will show mercy in those cases and still save them !!!

The Apostles immediately commanded baptism in Acts, they did not do away with it or treat it as unnecessary, and they did not say it was okay to wait to do it !!! Philip made it clear that only those who believe with all their heart, soul, and mind were to do this, or it was a false !!!

As for your mention of the OT saints yes they did believe, but nowhere was their belief shown as inactive but instead was full of obedience !!!

Also Apostle Paul said they were baptized in 1 Corinthians 10:1-2.............






The bible does not support infant baptism, that is a RCC construct !!!

During baptism the person has to make the conscience choice to be a follower of Christ, a baby can not make that decision.

As I showed above the Apostles in Acts never downplayed baptism and even done away with as it is done by some today, as you can easily read how they immediately commanded to be done.

I do not see one instance in the bible where it was done away with, or where an apostle told the person take your time and do it when you feel like it !!! Or even said not needed !!!

Ok everybody, take notice.
Ken says that if you have not been baptised you are going to Hell.

 

[KennethC]

Ok everybody, take notice.
Ken says that if you have not been baptised you are going to Hell.

Show me where does the bible say you can continue to deny to obey Jesus commands, and end up with salvation still ???

Show me where the bible says apostate teachers are saved ???

Do you even know what Apostate means ???

If you can not provide a single verse where the bible shows a continuous disobedient person still saved I will not change my stance. I can show you multiple verses that says those who are disobedient will not enter His rest, and how disobedience is called unbelief !!!

 

[coby]

See that big word in red, that is your misconception !!!

Nowhere does the bible say these things come after salvation, it says they "ACCOMPANY" salvation.

Meaning that these things go hand and hand at the same time as salvation, they are part of the process, as salvation is a ongoing continuous process in the faith. Not a one time event !!!

Yes there is only way to salvation and that is through Jesus Christ, and one who does not have the time to live their life out for Him (death bed confession) such as the thief on the cross. The Lord will show mercy in those cases and still save them !!!

The Apostles immediately commanded baptism in Acts, they did not do away with it or treat it as unnecessary, and they did not say it was okay to wait to do it !!! Philip made it clear that only those who believe with all their heart, soul, and mind were to do this, or it was a false !!!

As for your mention of the OT saints yes they did believe, but nowhere was their belief shown as inactive but instead was full of obedience !!!

Also Apostle Paul said they were baptized in 1 Corinthians 10:1-2.............






The bible does not support infant baptism, that is a RCC construct !!!

During baptism the person has to make the conscience choice to be a follower of Christ, a baby can not make that decision.

As I showed above the Apostles in Acts never downplayed baptism and even done away with as it is done by some today, as you can easily read how they immediately commanded to be done.

I do not see one instance in the bible where it was done away with, or where an apostle told the person take your time and do it when you feel like it !!! Or even said not needed !!!

No it's very important and a lot of people don't realize how powerful it is. My kids are old enough and are born again since they were 5 or something, but may not be baptized now which I think is stupid. They are born again though.

 

[phil36]

No it's very important and a lot of people don't realize how powerful it is. My kids are old enough and are born again since they were 5 or something, but may not be baptized now which I think is stupid. They are born again though.

You should have brought them up in a presbyterian church..that problem would have been solved ... (covenant children)