Contrast of The Mega Church with the Bible Believing Church
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So you're going to spend more time slandering . . .
Wouldn't your time be better spent building up the Body of Christ here?
I guess that's just not your thing . . .
So sad.
An Illustration from Real Life
I went to a Baptist high school for five years (it was in the fundamentalist stream of Baptist, GARBC) that regularly chided and joked about the 'liberal church down the road', a 'Bible Church', which also happened to be my home church. It was in no way a 'liberal' church - its doctrine was (and I assume still is - I have not lived in that town for many years now, but the church is still there and thriving) very sound.
The Baptist church would fit nicely into the template of the right side of the column of the OP - it did all the 'right' things.
The Bible Church would mostly fit into that template, as well, though over time, since these churches are in a town with both a major university and a fine arts college, the Bible Church began to reach out to the college community (or 'cater to' as you might proclaim) in ways relevant to them. They were good, decent people, their morality being the Fruit of who they were in Christ, demonstrated in how they loved those around them.
A really interesting thing about the Bible Church was the cultural diversity there. There were college students, college professors, educators from the local community, farmers, and others who were just regular folks from around the area. Yet the Gospel proved to be the uniting factor across all of those demographics - Christ was the center and the focus, and it WORKED.
The Bible Church grew and grew, needing to add onto their existing building and go to multiple services. They churned out people who were New Creations in Christ and were loving others well, drawing those in their spheres of influence into the Kingdom with their gentleness and care. Another really interesting and really cool thing is that there were many international students who went to that Bible Church for the duration of their studies at university, grew and matured in Christ, and then went back to their home countries taking Christ with them! The fruit of that Bible Church is far-reaching - global, in fact!
The Baptist church was stagnant. The community was cliquish, rarely inviting outsiders into their midst. The young folks went because they knew there would be hell to pay if they didn't. Many of them had children out of wedlock; few of those who married had marriages that survived. And others did leave - their faith shipwrecked by extra-biblical demands of how church 'should' be, though the doctrine preached from the pulpit was basically sound.
Though the doctrine was basically sound, how they walked out their day-to-day lives was devoid of love. They preached focus on Christ, but then instructed focus on self - do this, don't do that - and all it bred was rebellion. One of my classmates told me that her mother was forbidden by her dad to hang clothes out on the line on Sunday for fear that others who went to their church who lived on their road would see that she was working on the Lord's Day. She was permitted to use the dryer, however
. And these were sweet people - I loved them! But their motivation was not Christ and love-centered, it was fear based. That friend, btw, has left her husband and her faith in favor of New Agey stuff. Of the three children in that family, 2 of the 3 have divorced and left the faith that their family brought them up in.
The judgmentalism in that Baptist church was palpable. Constant scrutiny and an encompassing critical spirit . . . the results - the fruit - is not good. I know several of the walking wounded today and it breaks my heart. I try to be an encouragement to them, but so much damage has been done. The school no longer exists; it died a natural death.
What's important in a church is not style or culture. What's important in a church is that people are being pointed to Christ and His Work and that they are well-loved, because those two things transcend style and culture. That they are being taught the Good News of His Work and all that that means to us and for us is what matters. If a church is pointing to Christ and loving each other and others well, then Christ has a way of working out the kinks and details as long as the inflexible people are willing to get out of HIS way! The results? Local bodies of believers who are overflowing with the Love and Good News of Christ!
So many look for the 'correct formula' for 'doing' church.
The only formula is the Good News of the Work of Christ, learning how to love people well, and then letting HIM fashion each local body into what's needed in their communities.
By trying to simplify and provide a consistent method of worship and teaching, they have actually complicated what 'church' should be and many have forgotten to let Christ make their local bodies into living, loving, growing, reproducing places.
-JGIG
Wouldn't your time be better spent building up the Body of Christ here?
I guess that's just not your thing . . .
So sad.
An Illustration from Real Life
I went to a Baptist high school for five years (it was in the fundamentalist stream of Baptist, GARBC) that regularly chided and joked about the 'liberal church down the road', a 'Bible Church', which also happened to be my home church. It was in no way a 'liberal' church - its doctrine was (and I assume still is - I have not lived in that town for many years now, but the church is still there and thriving) very sound.
The Baptist church would fit nicely into the template of the right side of the column of the OP - it did all the 'right' things.
The Bible Church would mostly fit into that template, as well, though over time, since these churches are in a town with both a major university and a fine arts college, the Bible Church began to reach out to the college community (or 'cater to' as you might proclaim) in ways relevant to them. They were good, decent people, their morality being the Fruit of who they were in Christ, demonstrated in how they loved those around them.
A really interesting thing about the Bible Church was the cultural diversity there. There were college students, college professors, educators from the local community, farmers, and others who were just regular folks from around the area. Yet the Gospel proved to be the uniting factor across all of those demographics - Christ was the center and the focus, and it WORKED.
The Bible Church grew and grew, needing to add onto their existing building and go to multiple services. They churned out people who were New Creations in Christ and were loving others well, drawing those in their spheres of influence into the Kingdom with their gentleness and care. Another really interesting and really cool thing is that there were many international students who went to that Bible Church for the duration of their studies at university, grew and matured in Christ, and then went back to their home countries taking Christ with them! The fruit of that Bible Church is far-reaching - global, in fact!
The Baptist church was stagnant. The community was cliquish, rarely inviting outsiders into their midst. The young folks went because they knew there would be hell to pay if they didn't. Many of them had children out of wedlock; few of those who married had marriages that survived. And others did leave - their faith shipwrecked by extra-biblical demands of how church 'should' be, though the doctrine preached from the pulpit was basically sound.
Though the doctrine was basically sound, how they walked out their day-to-day lives was devoid of love. They preached focus on Christ, but then instructed focus on self - do this, don't do that - and all it bred was rebellion. One of my classmates told me that her mother was forbidden by her dad to hang clothes out on the line on Sunday for fear that others who went to their church who lived on their road would see that she was working on the Lord's Day. She was permitted to use the dryer, however
. And these were sweet people - I loved them! But their motivation was not Christ and love-centered, it was fear based. That friend, btw, has left her husband and her faith in favor of New Agey stuff. Of the three children in that family, 2 of the 3 have divorced and left the faith that their family brought them up in.The judgmentalism in that Baptist church was palpable. Constant scrutiny and an encompassing critical spirit . . . the results - the fruit - is not good. I know several of the walking wounded today and it breaks my heart. I try to be an encouragement to them, but so much damage has been done. The school no longer exists; it died a natural death.
What's important in a church is not style or culture. What's important in a church is that people are being pointed to Christ and His Work and that they are well-loved, because those two things transcend style and culture. That they are being taught the Good News of His Work and all that that means to us and for us is what matters. If a church is pointing to Christ and loving each other and others well, then Christ has a way of working out the kinks and details as long as the inflexible people are willing to get out of HIS way! The results? Local bodies of believers who are overflowing with the Love and Good News of Christ!
So many look for the 'correct formula' for 'doing' church.
The only formula is the Good News of the Work of Christ, learning how to love people well, and then letting HIM fashion each local body into what's needed in their communities.
By trying to simplify and provide a consistent method of worship and teaching, they have actually complicated what 'church' should be and many have forgotten to let Christ make their local bodies into living, loving, growing, reproducing places.
-JGIG
I present scripture all day long that contrasts churchianity with the first century ecclesia and im accused of slander......all day long.
Exposing wood, hay, and stubble, hirelings, false teachers, and wolves. Just ignoring the lot and trying to build up the body of Christ thereon is ludicrous, a futile exercise that will only perpetuate disaster and the impotence of the dying body of Christ!
God has always sent to the body, reformers. Why do you suppose? He's given us His logos/written word to correct with. 2Tim4:2. Again. Why do you suppose?
Rick Warren? Is that the guy that held hands with homo Elton John and said 'if we kiss, that will be the kiss heard round the world'?
This same guy hugging up with the pope? Is that the Rick Warren you're talking about?
Sounds like a true man of God to me!?
No one said the ecclesia is perfect but must we accept anal lust by men now? I know we're modern but come on now!
.
This same guy hugging up with the pope? Is that the Rick Warren you're talking about?
Sounds like a true man of God to me!?
No one said the ecclesia is perfect but must we accept anal lust by men now? I know we're modern but come on now!
.
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1 Peter 2:1-3 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Therefore, putting aside all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation,
[SUP]3 [/SUP] if you have tasted the kindness of the Lord.
Romans 14:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Therefore, putting aside all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation,
[SUP]3 [/SUP] if you have tasted the kindness of the Lord.
Romans 14:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
We can't judge a church body's spiritual health based solely on its size. There are big churches which are doing well, and small churches which are failing. However, it cannot be denied that the prosperity/WOF preachers have some really large congregations. The big reason for this, from what I've seen, is that the WoF/prosperity gospel appeals to man's basic desires (lusts of the flesh and the eyes, and the pride of life). The same things that Satan used when he tempted Christ in the wilderness.
WoF promises that we can just snap our fingers and God has to act to give us anything we want. Likewise, Satan said "If you are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread".
WoF says that no disease, financial hardship or other calamity should ever befall us as believers (and if such things occur, it's always our fault). In the same way, Satan told Christ to jump off the pinnacle of the temple and that His Father would be obligated to rescue Him. Jesus answered, "It is written; you shall not tempt the Lord your God".
WoF preachers often refer to themselves as "anointed", and for that reason, we should not speak against them. It is almost as if they want to be worshiped. Satan showed Jesus all the kingdoms of the world (and their glory) and said, "All this I will give you, if you will bow down and worship me". Jesus responded, "It is written; you shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve".
I think there is room for debate on the OP's approach, but I agree with (most of) her reasoning.
WoF promises that we can just snap our fingers and God has to act to give us anything we want. Likewise, Satan said "If you are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread".
WoF says that no disease, financial hardship or other calamity should ever befall us as believers (and if such things occur, it's always our fault). In the same way, Satan told Christ to jump off the pinnacle of the temple and that His Father would be obligated to rescue Him. Jesus answered, "It is written; you shall not tempt the Lord your God".
WoF preachers often refer to themselves as "anointed", and for that reason, we should not speak against them. It is almost as if they want to be worshiped. Satan showed Jesus all the kingdoms of the world (and their glory) and said, "All this I will give you, if you will bow down and worship me". Jesus responded, "It is written; you shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve".
I think there is room for debate on the OP's approach, but I agree with (most of) her reasoning.
Decades ago I used to listen to some of them but I never heard any of these things you were talking about. I have heard pastors that had nothing to do with WoF say that they were "anointed" and we were not to question them. I suppose any minister could say that in ignorance.
I could see where people might think some of the things they were accused of were true but I never heard it said by the ones I listened to though. Maybe the ones I listened to didn't say what some extreme ones were saying?
Or maybe people were not really understanding what was said - they thought those things were being said but if they listened closely - they might not be?
And maybe they just didn't agree with what they said so they are now heretics which is the way of all heretic hunters.
As many have pointed out in this thread - there is a sound biblical doctrine for the Lord prospering His people for the purpose of being a blessing to others.
I think some people just judge others that they are being covetous when they hear that the Lord wants to bless you. The poor people can be just as covetous as rich people.
God is not opposed to His people having things. He is opposed to things having His people.
I could see where people might think some of the things they were accused of were true but I never heard it said by the ones I listened to though. Maybe the ones I listened to didn't say what some extreme ones were saying?
Or maybe people were not really understanding what was said - they thought those things were being said but if they listened closely - they might not be?
And maybe they just didn't agree with what they said so they are now heretics which is the way of all heretic hunters.
As many have pointed out in this thread - there is a sound biblical doctrine for the Lord prospering His people for the purpose of being a blessing to others.
I think some people just judge others that they are being covetous when they hear that the Lord wants to bless you. The poor people can be just as covetous as rich people.
God is not opposed to His people having things. He is opposed to things having His people.
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D
I was really thinking about you. Here's this Man of God spending great amounts of time learning how to play the electric guitar at your skill level and then using that skill to play it for God, only to be dismissed as not "Bible-believing." Feels a bit like the response that Dylan got when he went electric. "You're not Dylan anymore."
Say what? The times they are a changin'!
I wonder if people flipped out when musicians dared to change from David's harp to that new-fangled instrument -- the lyre!
How dare them young whippersnappers! Next thing you know they're drop the tunic for pants! Everyone knows real men don't wear pants!!!
Say what? The times they are a changin'!
I wonder if people flipped out when musicians dared to change from David's harp to that new-fangled instrument -- the lyre!
How dare them young whippersnappers! Next thing you know they're drop the tunic for pants! Everyone knows real men don't wear pants!!!
D
35 years. (If you listen, people do tell us these things. Might be up to 36 years now, since he said that some months ago.)
And we are all of one opinion or another. That and $5 gets you to Jersey and back from here. There is opinion. There is fact. Stop wielding God's word as some sword for personal opinion. Is he a friend? Then treat him like one. One thing he's not though, is your pupil.
And one thing you aren't is church-fixer. You ARE church! Try and remember that and you start realizing we're in this together, not merely waiting for you to educate the masses of stupids. Not quite as many stupids on this board as you might think. When we're skilled enough to find a community online and join it, stupid is no longer a factor.
I have seen people as young as 14 on this site. Willie is up there for the oldest I've seen, and yet he's not even the oldest active member. I have never met people as stupid as you seem to think we all are. If you just got to teach, because, that actually does seem to be a driving force in you, so I suspect that is God gifted, would you please stop thinking everyone is so much stupider than you? Talking down to people makes them close their ears.
That is actually a better choice then what comes naturally to us. We have the same cause! If nothing else, try to remember that when talking to someone.
Is Willie a friend? Cool! Try remembering that. Friend. Not obstinate pupil. (And not saying the adjective doesn't fit at times, but between you and me, all three of us lean to obstinate. But he's not your pupil.)
And, yes, Willie and I have our differences too, but that doesn't give me the right to talk down to him either. And, yes! If you've been paying attention, you've may seen me doing it too. (I get like this -- kind of bossy, more than talking down -- so I'm not remembering ever talking down to someone.) BUT we're called to something higher!
All I'm trying for is to remind everyone -- me included -- WE ARE THE CHURCH! That means something. If we want people to see a better image of the church, let's start with ourselves! Let's let Gold mold us more into his character, because frankly our character stinks!
Does that work for you? (Bossy. Not to be confused with thinking I'm a dictator either.)
And we are all of one opinion or another. That and $5 gets you to Jersey and back from here. There is opinion. There is fact. Stop wielding God's word as some sword for personal opinion. Is he a friend? Then treat him like one. One thing he's not though, is your pupil.
And one thing you aren't is church-fixer. You ARE church! Try and remember that and you start realizing we're in this together, not merely waiting for you to educate the masses of stupids. Not quite as many stupids on this board as you might think. When we're skilled enough to find a community online and join it, stupid is no longer a factor.
I have seen people as young as 14 on this site. Willie is up there for the oldest I've seen, and yet he's not even the oldest active member. I have never met people as stupid as you seem to think we all are. If you just got to teach, because, that actually does seem to be a driving force in you, so I suspect that is God gifted, would you please stop thinking everyone is so much stupider than you? Talking down to people makes them close their ears.
That is actually a better choice then what comes naturally to us. We have the same cause! If nothing else, try to remember that when talking to someone.
Is Willie a friend? Cool! Try remembering that. Friend. Not obstinate pupil. (And not saying the adjective doesn't fit at times, but between you and me, all three of us lean to obstinate. But he's not your pupil.)
And, yes, Willie and I have our differences too, but that doesn't give me the right to talk down to him either. And, yes! If you've been paying attention, you've may seen me doing it too. (I get like this -- kind of bossy, more than talking down -- so I'm not remembering ever talking down to someone.) BUT we're called to something higher!
All I'm trying for is to remind everyone -- me included -- WE ARE THE CHURCH! That means something. If we want people to see a better image of the church, let's start with ourselves! Let's let Gold mold us more into his character, because frankly our character stinks!
Does that work for you? (Bossy. Not to be confused with thinking I'm a dictator either.)
I care that the truth gets out. I WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO .
Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.