Why is it assumed by many here that Grace Folk live in blatant, unrepentant sin?

[PeterJens]

um Peter said a dog returned to his vomit, He was a dog. He never became a new creation. He did not return to being a dog (lose salvation and once again become lost, dead to Christ needing to be born again) he was already a dog. Who tried to act like a new creature (child of God.) but could not continue the acting, Why? A Dog returns to his vomit, why? A dog is a dog.

I have heard this analogy before but it is pushing an analogy too far.
We are called lost sheep. My sheep know my voice etc.

Goats are not sheep or turn into sheep.

Dogs do not turn into sheep.

To then extend the analogy of dogs and sick to say the dog is not saved because
they are a dog shows the level of understanding and rigidity in thought.

It comes from the idea you are born again and cannot loose it.

But using the sheep analogy, before you are saved you are a sheep, you always
stay a sheep and can never not be sheep.

This does not mean you are a saved sheep or a lost sheep, you are just a sheep.
Some sheep are still rebellious and still never saved, and some sheep wonder in and
wonder out. Not difficult really.

 

[Grandpa]

I have heard this analogy before but it is pushing an analogy too far.
We are called lost sheep. My sheep know my voice etc.

Goats are not sheep or turn into sheep.

Dogs do not turn into sheep.

To then extend the analogy of dogs and sick to say the dog is not saved because
they are a dog shows the level of understanding and rigidity in thought.

It comes from the idea you are born again and cannot loose it.

But using the sheep analogy, before you are saved you are a sheep, you always
stay a sheep and can never not be sheep.

Ok. I can be with you here.

This does not mean you are a saved sheep or a lost sheep, you are just a sheep.
Some sheep are still rebellious and still never saved, and some sheep wonder in and
wonder out. Not difficult really.

But your ending falls apart. As it usually does.

My sheep hear My Voice and another they will not follow.

Only sheep without a shepherd would wander. A sheep can't "fire" his Shepherd or decide to be his own shepherd after hearing His Voice. That would constitute following someone else.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

um Peter said a dog returned to his vomit, He was a dog. He never became a new creation. He did not return to being a dog (lose salvation and once again become lost, dead to Christ needing to be born again) he was already a dog. Who tried to act like a new creature (child of God.) but could not continue the acting, Why? A Dog returns to his vomit, why? A dog is a dog.

The dogs are people out of covenant.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The dogs are people out of covenant.

could be, which still would be any unbeliever, outside of Gods covenant with mankind to redeem them to himself.

He may act like he in covenant (play the game) but he is still a dog. and will return to what he is. A dog by nature eats his vomit. A dog will always be a dog.. You can try to teach a dog a new trick (play church in this example) but he is still a dog. and will always go back to do what comes natural to himself.

A child of God in covenant with God is a new creature, with a new nature.. He is not a dog, and would not by nature act like a dog..

 

[followjesus]

There's no need to "turn back" if they never left.

and what is it that determines thier salvation after all? what is it that makes thier faith genuine? ACTION. Abraham believed God and God credited as righteousness. THEN God tested abrahams belief in God, and abraham obeyed God because He had real faith. the action doesnt mean anything if its not from faith, Faith means nothing if the action never comes. faith = action.

Peters faith " Lord if it is you, tell me amd ill come" Jesus " It is I , come"....with that peter stepped out of the boat and walked by faith

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

could be, which still would be any unbeliever, outside of Gods covenant with mankind to redeem them to himself.

He may act like he in covenant (play the game) but he is still a dog. and will return to what he is. A dog by nature eats his vomit. A dog will always be a dog.. You can try to teach a dog a new trick (play church in this example) but he is still a dog. and will always go back to do what comes natural to himself.

A child of God in covenant with God is a new creature, with a new nature.. He is not a dog, and would not by nature act like a dog..

You can try to teach a dog a new trick (play church in this example) but he is still a dog

This is not Biblical because we were all "dogs" at some part of our lives and without the grace of our Saviour we would all be on our way to eternal damnation.

Mat 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
Mat 15:27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

It is an insult to call somebody a dog today but when Jesus was busy with His ministry it was a way of talking. They understood that a dog is somebody out of covenant.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

A child of God in covenant with God is a new creature, with a new nature.. He is not a dog, and would not by nature act like a dog..

Yes I agree with this 100% but like you say if we turn away from God we go back to our vomit (previous life) I actually never thought of it like this but it now make sense.

 

[PeterJens]

Yes I agree with this 100% but like you say if we turn away from God we go back to our vomit (previous life) I actually never thought of it like this but it now make sense.

What is interesting to me is not the denial people can turn back to their olds ways, but what
this means.

Now if you believe once you are saved, your future sins are forgiven, you can never loose being
a child of God, then this can only be temporary, though scripture warns what happened before
will be ignored. But to believe this is true you would then be denying future sins are forgiven,
which to them is apostacy and believing how you behave influences salvation.

So the only option is to believe they were never saved.

So this particular subject is not an open debate because it is a total faith issue, into which future
sin forgiven believers (FSFB) are locked into. So it is all beginning to makes sense, and why interactions
are so stilted.

 

[Adstar]

SIN is CHOICE,....the Bible says as much...I still miss the mark.....I ask forgiveness and move on....I renew my mind so that the works of the flesh and nullified, by walking in the Spirit...

You are either a sinner or you have been saved by grace it cannot be both....that is the simplicity of the Gospel of Grace that many miss...

Then since you sin you are not saved by grace according to your own preaching.. You have condemned yourself.. If you where saved you would not sin /miss the Mark as you say according to your own doctrine..

"""You are either a sinner or you have been saved by grace it cannot be both"""

You said it yourself .. This is the simplicity of your preaching that condemns you to hell.. Because you still sin...

 

[valiant]

Then since you sin you are not saved by grace according to your own preaching.. You have condemned yourself.. If you where saved you would not sin /miss the Mark as you say according to your own doctrine..

"""You are either a sinner or you have been saved by grace it cannot be both"""

You said it yourself .. This is the simplicity of your preaching that condemns you to hell.. Because you still sin...

The Bible teaches that either you are a saved sinner, and under the reign of grace and not under the reign of sin, or a lost sinner and still under the reign of sin. It is not sinning that determines the issue but being under the reign of sin or of abounding grace (Rom 5.21).

If you are under the reign of grace there is no chance you will be lost for you are being saved by God in His grace not by your own actions. You will commit sin (for all continue to do so until their physical death) but you will not be ruled over by it. But if you are under the reign of sin you are ruled over by sin and grace has left you untouched.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You can try to teach a dog a new trick (play church in this example) but he is still a dog

This is not Biblical because we were all "dogs" at some part of our lives and without the grace of our Saviour we would all be on our way to eternal damnation.

Mat 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
Mat 15:27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Yes we were all dogs at one point, You just made my point, A dog is lost without grace. And that is exactly what was said, A dog (unsaved person without grace) will always go back to his vomit.

These people were never saved, they did not lose salvation, they never HAD IT.

It is an insult to call somebody a dog today but when Jesus was busy with His ministry it was a way of talking. They understood that a dog is somebody out of covenant.

Yes, Again, You just made my point.. A dog is someone who is out of covenant, Not saved, And no matter how hard he tries to act like a christian, He will always expose his true self. how? A dog always eats his vomit. (A christian would never do this)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes I agree with this 100% but like you say if we turn away from God we go back to our vomit (previous life) I actually never thought of it like this but it now make sense.

No. this is not what the author said,

he said a dog ALWAYS GOES BACK..

It did not say a christian (new creature) would or could go back to their old self. (and as a result lose salvation)

big difference.

 

[eph610]

The Bible teaches that either you are a saved sinner, and under the reign of grace and not under the reign of sin, or a lost sinner and still under the reign of sin. It is not sinning that determines the issue but being under the reign of sin or of abounding grace (Rom 5.21).

If you are under the reign of grace there is no chance you will be lost for you are being saved by God in His grace not by your own actions. You will commit sin (for all continue to do so until their physical death) but you will not be ruled over by it. But if you are under the reign of sin you are ruled over by sin and grace has left you untouched.

The Bible teaches you are a complete new man and the SIN nature is buried with Christ....the Spirit of a man is made perfect again at conversion, but his soul[mind, will, emotions, passions, intellect] and his flesh[body] is not....this sis why Paul told us we must renew our minds to the Word....

The divine nature is made alive in Christ....walking in the Spirit is being led by your Spirit-man[the real you] and crucifying the flesh and mind to follow your Spirit-man....

If you study the NT carefully, especially the Epistles, you will notice a separation of sinner/world/darkness, righteous/kingdom of God/light

Peter, Paul and James only refer to Sinners, in a past tense when the context is about believers...

SINNER=CONDITION not a person

SIN does not not make a believer a SINNER, unless they allow it dominate them...

This is shown in the OT as well, especially in the Psalms

 

[eph610]

Then since you sin you are not saved by grace according to your own preaching.. You have condemned yourself.. If you where saved you would not sin /miss the Mark as you say according to your own doctrine..

"""You are either a sinner or you have been saved by grace it cannot be both"""

You said it yourself .. This is the simplicity of your preaching that condemns you to hell.. Because you still sin...

SINNER is a condition before Christ.....Righteous is the position and new man is the condition after Christ.


Was Adam made a Sinner? or did Sin enter the world through him, and thus after Adam we all were sinners....which is our condition

 

[Grace777x70]

The Bible teaches you are a complete new man and the SIN nature is buried with Christ....the Spirit of a man is made perfect again at conversion, but his soul[mind, will, emotions, passions, intellect] and his flesh[body] is not....this sis why Paul told us we must renew our minds to the Word....

The divine nature is made alive in Christ....walking in the Spirit is being led by your Spirit-man[the real you] and crucifying the flesh and mind to follow your Spirit-man....

If you study the NT carefully, especially the Epistles, you will notice a separation of sinner/world/darkness, righteous/kingdom of God/light

Peter, Paul and James only refer to Sinners, in a past tense when the context is about believers...

SINNER=CONDITION not a person

SIN does not not make a believer a SINNER, unless they allow it dominate them...

This is shown in the OT as well, especially in the Psalms

Amen...Paul had this to say about those believers in Corinth that were going to the temple prostitutes to have sex, to those that were in strife and divisions, to those that were getting drunk at communion and eating all the food so that the poor people in the congregation had nothing to eat.

This what Paul called them. Sanctified - saints by calling...one is either a sinner = lost condition or a saint = saved condition.

1 Corinthians 1:2 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:

Paul then went on the tell them who they were in Christ - told them their true identity - then deal with the behavior.

 

[eph610]

Amen...Paul had this to say about those believers in Corinth that were going to the temple prostitutes to have sex, to those that were in strife and divisions, to those that were getting drunk at communion and eating all the food so that the poor people in the congregation had nothing to eat.

This what Paul called them. Sanctified - saints by calling...one is either a sinner = lost condition or a saint = saved condition.

1 Corinthians 1:2 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:

Paul then went on the tell them who they were in Christ - told them their true identity - then deal with the behavior.

Exactly correct!

 

[Adstar]

The Bible teaches that either you are a saved sinner, and under the reign of grace and not under the reign of sin, or a lost sinner and still under the reign of sin. It is not sinning that determines the issue but being under the reign of sin or of abounding grace (Rom 5.21).

If you are under the reign of grace there is no chance you will be lost for you are being saved by God in His grace not by your own actions. You will commit sin (for all continue to do so until their physical death) but you will not be ruled over by it. But if you are under the reign of sin you are ruled over by sin and grace has left you untouched.

Then you agree that the following statement is false

Quote eph610
"""You are either a sinner or you have been saved by grace it cannot be both"""

You agree with me that eph610 has delivered a false Gospel.. Because you state that """""If you are under the reign of grace there is no chance you will be lost for you are being saved by God in His grace not by your own actions. You will commit sin (for all continue to do so until their physical death)"""

So you can be a sinner and be saved by the Atonement of the Messiah Jesus... So we both agree that works salvation doctrine pushed by posters like ep610 is a false doctrine and not the Gospel truth...

 

[Adstar]

SINNER is a condition before Christ.....Righteous is the position and new man is the condition after Christ.


Was Adam made a Sinner? or did Sin enter the world through him, and thus after Adam we all were sinners....which is our condition

You have already been exposed as preaching a false Gospel saying that we are either sinners or saved by grace and we cannot be both... You are condemned by your own doctrine that you put forward as being the Gospel truth...

 

[PinkDiamond]

Then you agree that the following statement is false



You agree with me that eph610 has delivered a false Gospel.. Because you state that """""If you are under the reign of grace there is no chance you will be lost for you are being saved by God in His grace not by your own actions. You will commit sin (for all continue to do so until their physical death)"""

So you can be a sinner and be saved by the Atonement of the Messiah Jesus... So we both agree that works salvation doctrine pushed by posters like ep610 is a false doctrine and not the Gospel truth...

I've never read a post by eph610 in which he promoted a works based salvation. I have read a lot of his posts, and he definitely stresses that salvation is through the grace of God alone.

What he is trying to say is that once we experience conversion and have our heart transformed we have power over sin. We no longer are in bondage to sin. So long as we commune with Christ and seek his grace, we have power to resist temptation. Prior to our conversion we do not have this resource of grace available to us. The distinction he is trying to make, as I inferred from his posts, is that a sinner is powerless to overcome sin and a Christian has power. I think the disagreement is over the definition of the word sinner. I think you take the word sinner to be a literal definition: a person who commits sin is a sinner. A sinner in your view is one that commits one sin, two sins, three sins, etc. Eph610 is defining a sinner as an individual that is continuously enslaved to sin and not reconciled to God. Personally, I can understand both of your definitions. I agree with you both, actually. Personally though, I wouldn't refer to someone who professed faith in Christ and testified of a conversion experience as a sinner.

 

[valiant]

Originally Posted by valiant

The Bible teaches that either you are a saved sinner, and under the reign of grace and not under the reign of sin, or a lost sinner and still under the reign of sin. It is not sinning that determines the issue but being under the reign of sin or of abounding grace (Rom 5.21).

If you are under the reign of grace there is no chance you will be lost for you are being saved by God in His grace not by your own actions. You will commit sin (for all continue to do so until their physical death) but you will not be ruled over by it. But if you are under the reign of sin you are ruled over by sin and grace has left you untouched.

Then you agree that the following statement is false

Quote eph610
"""You are either a sinner or you have been saved by grace it cannot be both"""

No, for eph 610 is making sinner mean habitual sinner. He agrees that a saved person does sin, but he is not a 'sinner'. It is a matter of definition.

You agree with me that eph610 has delivered a false Gospel.. Because you state that """""If you are under the reign of grace there is no chance you will be lost for you are being saved by God in His grace not by your own actions. You will commit sin (for all continue to do so until their physical death)"""

I think that eph 610 agrees with me

So you can be a sinner and be saved by the Atonement of the Messiah Jesus... So we both agree that works salvation doctrine pushed by posters like ep610 is a false doctrine and not the Gospel truth...

it depends on what you define as a sinner. eph 610 appears sound to me.