"Work out your own salvation ..."

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mailmandan

mailmandan

Senior Member
#101
Apr 7, 2014
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#101
John146 said:
Who is the man in James justified before? Does man really justify himself before God by his works?

In order to make them mesh, you have to change what justified means. I don't want to do that. I want to allow the Scripture to be as honest to me as possible.
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Justified by works does not mean saved by works. James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." Again, James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make Him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous" not accounted as righteous.

Matthew 11:19 - "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

Matthew 12:37 - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words reveal the state of our hearts. Words (just like our works) will appear to be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of grace and righteousness.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#102
Jan 13, 2016
16,687
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#102
mailmandan said:
Justified by works does not mean saved by works. James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." Again, James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make Him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous" not accounted as righteous.

Matthew 11:19 - "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

Matthew 12:37 - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words reveal the state of our hearts. Words (just like our works) will appear to be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of grace and righteousness.
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Justified before who? Are you saying our works justify us before God that we are saved?

Our salvation is justified through the work of Jesus Christ, yes?
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

Senior Member
#103
Apr 7, 2014
25,070
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#103
John146 said:
Justified before who? Are you saying our works justify us before God that we are saved?

Our salvation is justified through the work of Jesus Christ, yes?
Click to expand...
Posts #96, #99 and #101 were not clear enough?
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

Senior Member
#105
Apr 7, 2014
25,070
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#105
John146 said:
I apologize, but I did not see the answer to: Our works justify us before who?
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Do you expect me to say men or God only or both? We are shown to be righteous by our works for all to see. What's your angle?
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#106
Jan 13, 2016
16,687
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#106
mailmandan said:
Do you expect me to say men or God only or both? We are shown to be righteous by our works for all to see. What's your angle?
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I believe I am justified by the faith of Jesus Christ, not my own individual faith. My works can never justify me before God or man. What works justifies a man that shows he is saved?

James uses the example of giving food and clothes to those in need. Is that a work that proves my salvation?
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
#107
#107
mailmandan said:
The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous (Romans 3:24-28; 4:2-6; 5:1). James, however is using the term to describe those who would prove the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.

Man is saved through faith and not works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not on the merits of our works.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.*
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Thats right. If they are speaking of the same justification then we would have to admit that scripture contradicts itself. Paul clearly says in Romans 3 that the whole world stands guilty before God, and "that by works no man can be justified in His (Gods) sight” (verses 19, 20). While James is clearly addressing how genuine faith in Christ will yield evidence that can be seen by others, "I will show you my faith by my works"....before men, that will justify them in the sight of men.
 
G

garee

Banned
#108
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
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#108
Justified by works does not mean saved by works. James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." Again, James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.
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Of course we justified by works. No work no justification.No wage of sin paid in full.

Christ is the just and justifier according to His own faith. If not, it would not make Christ’s work of faith perfect that worked in Abraham as His same mutual faith (Christ) worked in Rehab.. God’s faith without works is dead .Christ finished the work according to His faith. The work is not of us.

The faith below as to who performed the work in the end making faith complete /perfect must be of Christ, or Abraham and Rehab would have something to boast in but before God .

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? Jam 2:20-25

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings: Phi 2:12
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#110
Jan 13, 2016
16,687
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#110
FreeNChrist said:
Thats right. If they are speaking of the same justification then we would have to admit that scripture contradicts itself. Paul clearly says in Romans 3 that the whole world stands guilty before God, and "that by works no man can be justified in His (Gods) sight” (verses 19, 20). While James is clearly addressing how genuine faith in Christ will yield evidence that can be seen by others, "I will show you my faith by my works"....before men, that will justify them in the sight of men.
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Is feeding and clothing the poor, the example James uses, evidence that a person is saved? How much evidence is needed to justify someone before other men that they are saved?
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
#111
#111
John146 said:
Is feeding and clothing the poor, the example James uses, evidence that a person is saved? How much evidence is needed to justify someone before other men that they are saved?
Click to expand...
James isn't speaking to salvation, but to how genuine faith in Christ will yield evidence that can be seen.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#112
Jan 13, 2016
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#112
FreeNChrist said:
James isn't speaking to salvation, but to how genuine faith in Christ will yield evidence that can be seen.
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James 2:14, What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
#113
#113
John146 said:
James 2:14, What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
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Yep. James concern is that people have real saving faith, not counterfeit faith. Real saving faith in Jesus Christ will be evident as Christ will necessarily be expressing His character, the fruit of His Spirit, through the person whose faith is genuine.
 
Grace777x70

Grace777x70

Banned
#114
Nov 22, 2015
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#114
The Greek word "save" does not always mean salvation as in going to be in heaven with the Lord. It speaks of "preservation, wholeness, rescue, make well."

I believe the context of James 2:14 is clearly talking about bringing wholeness and well being to people in need.

James 2:14-17 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

[SUP]15 [/SUP] If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,

[SUP]16 [/SUP] and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?

[SUP]17 [/SUP] Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

True faith will have some sort of a corresponding action from the love of God that compels us to express the life of Christ that is in us to others in need.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#115
Jan 13, 2016
16,687
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#115
Grace777x70 said:
The Greek word "save" does not always mean salvation as in going to be in heaven with the Lord. It speaks of "preservation, wholeness, rescue, make well."

I believe the context of James 2:14 is clearly talking about bringing wholeness and well being to people in need.
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As a dispensationalist, I understand James to be writing to the twelve tribes scattered abroad. This will occur during the coming tribulation. The nation of Israel will be scattered due to persecution of the Anti-Christ. They will have to rely on their works and faith to be "saved" through this time period and ushered into their promised kingdom with Christ reigning on the earth as King of Kings.

To make James written to the Church, many things have to be taken out of context and spiritually applied. I take it literally to the twelve tribes, the whole nation of Israel, not a select group of believers out of the nation.
 
Grace777x70

Grace777x70

Banned
#117
Nov 22, 2015
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#117
John146 said:
As a dispensationalist, I understand James to be writing to the twelve tribes scattered abroad. This will occur during the coming tribulation. The nation of Israel will be scattered due to persecution of the Anti-Christ. They will have to rely on their works and faith to be "saved" through this time period and ushered into their promised kingdom with Christ reigning on the earth as King of Kings.

To make James written to the Church, many things have to be taken out of context and spiritually applied. I take it literally to the twelve tribes, the whole nation of Israel, not a select group of believers out of the nation.
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I have heard this theory before but I just can't see where James would write a letter to the Jews of his day and it really means - this is not for you today - but for some far out time in the future. Are those Jews going to read the NT book of James in this tribulation period?

To me - James is one of the first books to be written and thus it was addressed to the Jews. I doubt that James even knew that the gospel was for the gentiles at this stage.

James is thought to have been written in 49 A.D. prior to the Jerusalem council held in 50 A.d.

Epistle of James | Theopedia

The dispersal had been on for a while. The Pharisees even thought that Jesus was going to go to those in the dispersal.

John 7:35 (NASB)
[SUP]35 [/SUP] The Jews then said to one another, "Where does this man intend to go that we will not find Him? He is not intending to go to the Dispersion among the Greeks, and teach the Greeks, is He?










The Jews then said to one another, "Where does this man intend to go that we will not find Him? He is not intending to go to the Dispersion among the Greeks, and teach the Greeks, is He?
 
Stephen63

Stephen63

Banned
#118
Aug 15, 2009
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#118
Originally Posted by John146

James 2:14, What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
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FreeNChrist said:
Yep. James concern is that people have real saving faith, not counterfeit faith. Real saving faith in Jesus Christ will be evident as Christ will necessarily be expressing His character, the fruit of His Spirit, through the person whose faith is genuine.
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Uuuummmm, no James is speaking specifically of faith SAVING the christian, & he's speaking to "brethren", the church, not the unsaved.

NOBODY is implying or otherwise saying that works save us. Justification speaks to how works of faith KEEP us saved.

God is fully giving favor to GET saved. LIVING by faith makes sure we STAY saved. Grace is a guarantee of the offering of salvation by God to every man. Living by faith guarantees it. Living by faith requires obedience.

All through the NT, salvation is not described as "the grace"; it's called "the faith".

[TABLE="align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]
New International Version
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.

New Living Translation
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, and I have remained faithful.

English Standard Version
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.

Berean Study Bible
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.

Berean Literal Bible
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race,I have kept the faith.

New American Standard Bible
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith.

King James Bible
I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race,I have kept the faith.

International Standard Version
I have fought the good fight. I have completed the race. I have kept the faith.​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
The just shall LIVE by faith​
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
#119
#119
Stephen63 said:
Uuuummmm, no James is speaking specifically of faith SAVING the christian, & he's speaking to "brethren", the church, not the unsaved.

NOBODY is implying or otherwise saying that works save us. Justification speaks to how works of faith KEEP us saved.

God is fully giving favor to GET saved. LIVING by faith makes sure we STAY saved. Grace is a guarantee of the offering of salvation by God to every man. Living by faith guarantees it. Living by faith requires obedience.

All through the NT, salvation is not described as "the grace"; it's called "the faith".

[TABLE="align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]
New International Version
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.

New Living Translation
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, and I have remained faithful.

English Standard Version
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.

Berean Study Bible
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.

Berean Literal Bible
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race,I have kept the faith.

New American Standard Bible
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith.

King James Bible
I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race,I have kept the faith.

International Standard Version
I have fought the good fight. I have completed the race. I have kept the faith.​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
The just shall LIVE by faith​
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Nonsense. You didn't save yourself and you don't keep yourself saved. The scriptures you post in an attempt to support such a ridiculous notion only proves you do not understand the very scriptures you quote.
 
P

psalm6819

Guest
#120
#120
Got it, Stephen. I........I........I......I, that is your gospel

doesn't leave much room for Jesus
 
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