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Hi Stunned,
But for arguments sake, let's say that she doesn't mean that. Should she be loved on with correction by prayer and showing her scriptures that might say differently, or should we call names and throw rocks? And I'm not saying you do that, I'm saying it for the rest of us who respond in this way.
But lets say she does believe that. Should we still not be courteous to her extending grace to her especially is she's a sister in the Lord that doesn't quite understand every nuance of doctrine.
And here's what I posted to EG in case you want to read it.
Thanks EG for the example. 
Okay, so here is what I do in a situation like this. Does this person say we must be saved by grace through faith? Okay if the answer is yes, and in this case Fran did say we must be saved by grace through faith, then we need to understand what she's saying because she knows we aren't saved by works, but by faith.
Maybe she's read this scripture.
Philippians 2:12, 13
So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
The same person, Paul, wrote we're saved by grace through faith and that we are to work out our salvation. So by God's grace we're saved through faith and then the works that follow prove that our faith is real. Works are an evidence of the new life within us.
So when Fran states that we must work, this is my first thought to what she's probably meaning by that because she believes she's saved by grace through faith.
Jesus said if you love me you will keep my commandments. Same thing. True faith obeys.
We see a mixed bag of individuals within the church. Some evil, some righteous; some tares, some wheat; some are goats, others are sheep. So what distinguishes the true and faithful from the false and unbelieving? Obedience does.
So although works don't determine salvation, they reveal that God is truly working in us which is the reason we obey the Lord. If He's in us we show proof that we're His by our obedience.
Okay, so here is what I do in a situation like this. Does this person say we must be saved by grace through faith? Okay if the answer is yes, and in this case Fran did say we must be saved by grace through faith, then we need to understand what she's saying because she knows we aren't saved by works, but by faith.
Maybe she's read this scripture.
Philippians 2:12, 13
So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
The same person, Paul, wrote we're saved by grace through faith and that we are to work out our salvation. So by God's grace we're saved through faith and then the works that follow prove that our faith is real. Works are an evidence of the new life within us.
So when Fran states that we must work, this is my first thought to what she's probably meaning by that because she believes she's saved by grace through faith.
Jesus said if you love me you will keep my commandments. Same thing. True faith obeys.
We see a mixed bag of individuals within the church. Some evil, some righteous; some tares, some wheat; some are goats, others are sheep. So what distinguishes the true and faithful from the false and unbelieving? Obedience does.
So although works don't determine salvation, they reveal that God is truly working in us which is the reason we obey the Lord. If He's in us we show proof that we're His by our obedience.
I see the argument, but my concern is not about keeping salvation but about the ability
to become defiled and lose the communion with the Lord.
Those who feel they cannot lose something often means they actually have never received it.
It may sound reverse logic, but if you prize and understand something deeply, you know what
it is not to have it. And salvation is communion with the most High, and what offends and He
despises is sin and evil. To know Him is to know this fact and to dwell in sin and take pleasure
in getting in a mess, just denies the very claim of communion.
And once you realise how susceptable we are and how easily we stumble, it becomes obvious,
what a disaster it is to lose such a precious gift.
But those who just know fear and want desperately acceptance and release from guilt just
know arrival and want anything to reassure them it will not go wrong.....
So it is all focused on them, and not on God at all, or His will or His ways, or sorting themselves
out, or love, or His words, or His reality.
This is my concern, to know what it is to walk with God and encourage those to continue in the
way. To me all I care about is people walking, not why they are walking, God will sort that out.
God bless you,
to become defiled and lose the communion with the Lord.
Those who feel they cannot lose something often means they actually have never received it.
It may sound reverse logic, but if you prize and understand something deeply, you know what
it is not to have it. And salvation is communion with the most High, and what offends and He
despises is sin and evil. To know Him is to know this fact and to dwell in sin and take pleasure
in getting in a mess, just denies the very claim of communion.
And once you realise how susceptable we are and how easily we stumble, it becomes obvious,
what a disaster it is to lose such a precious gift.
But those who just know fear and want desperately acceptance and release from guilt just
know arrival and want anything to reassure them it will not go wrong.....
So it is all focused on them, and not on God at all, or His will or His ways, or sorting themselves
out, or love, or His words, or His reality.
This is my concern, to know what it is to walk with God and encourage those to continue in the
way. To me all I care about is people walking, not why they are walking, God will sort that out.
God bless you,
I absolutely, absolutely agree.
I told her I was sorry the namecalling and accusations of pharisaical, etc., was happening to her.
I was even more sorry when I saw her get sucked into the bitterness when she had been walking so well.
How anyone thinks they are doing service for God with their behavior like that is amazing to me.
And we keep falling into the trap laid for our feet over and over again and the nastiness goes on and on.
And clanging cymbals are lovely music to satan.
It just gets you in tears sometimes to see how quickly a pileup like this happens when one man admits his weakness and apologizes for his tongue. You know his confession and conviction scared the you-know-what out of someone when you see what happens next.
I told her I was sorry the namecalling and accusations of pharisaical, etc., was happening to her.
I was even more sorry when I saw her get sucked into the bitterness when she had been walking so well.
How anyone thinks they are doing service for God with their behavior like that is amazing to me.
And we keep falling into the trap laid for our feet over and over again and the nastiness goes on and on.
And clanging cymbals are lovely music to satan.
It just gets you in tears sometimes to see how quickly a pileup like this happens when one man admits his weakness and apologizes for his tongue. You know his confession and conviction scared the you-know-what out of someone when you see what happens next.
Also, forgot to address this Stephen. Fruit doesn't appear overnight. We will need the proper nutrients, weather, and I guess pruning. Am not into fruit growing naturally, but for us it is the fruit of our being...in Him. I was told this by above. Though I cannot say a thus saith the Lord to anyone else. Just saying what I heard.
it's all about what 'The Holy Spirit speaks/tells you', (in your ears and heart/Spirit) -
if you have a heart that desires, yearns to listen and be open to obey the 'Word of Truth,
Jesus' Christ's, The Holiness of His Word' - God's path to Life through Jesus Christ, =
it's about what - you choose to do about it? better take your 'best offer!
it would seem that we have more than enough evidence to convince ourselves
of certain things...
if you have a heart that desires, yearns to listen and be open to obey the 'Word of Truth,
Jesus' Christ's, The Holiness of His Word' - God's path to Life through Jesus Christ, =
it's about what - you choose to do about it? better take your 'best offer!
it would seem that we have more than enough evidence to convince ourselves
of certain things...
Hebrews 10:26 can be a stumbling block if we don't take the context in which this passage was written.
Some times well intentioned people take Hebrews 10:26-29 out of context with the book of Hebrews.
Anyone can take an isolated scripture out of it's context and say anything they want. Here is an example in the scripture below - Ex 32:33. Anyone who has ever sinned is blotted out of God's book.
Exodus 32:33 (NASB)
[SUP]33 [/SUP] The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.
This is truly stated in the OT but it is not the ultimate statement of truth. The work of Jesus's finished work on the cross trumps what is said in Ex. 32:33.
Obviously we need to view all scripture through the finished work of Christ. We don't take obscure verses and discount the abundance of clear scriptures on what our Lord has done for us.
Hebrews 10 is talking about Jewish people after hearing about Christ for the only sacrifice for sins and rejecting it to go back to the temple sacrifices for their sins.
Hebrews was written a few years before the temple system came crashing down in 70AD when it was trampled by the Roman army.
The "willful sinning" is after hearing the "knowledge" of the truth of Christ's sacrifice - those that go back to the temple sacrifices and do not receive Christ's work by faith - this is the wilful sinning being talked about - the rejection of Christ's sacrifice and blood for the forgiveness of all sins.
This is insulting the Spirit of grace. The Holy Spirit's work is to convict/convince/expose the world of their sin - which is unbelief in Christ's work. John 16:8-9
There is a vast difference between receiving the "knowledge" of the truth and "receiving the truth" which is Christ Himself.
Some times well intentioned people take Hebrews 10:26-29 out of context with the book of Hebrews.
Anyone can take an isolated scripture out of it's context and say anything they want. Here is an example in the scripture below - Ex 32:33. Anyone who has ever sinned is blotted out of God's book.
Exodus 32:33 (NASB)
[SUP]33 [/SUP] The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.
This is truly stated in the OT but it is not the ultimate statement of truth. The work of Jesus's finished work on the cross trumps what is said in Ex. 32:33.
Obviously we need to view all scripture through the finished work of Christ. We don't take obscure verses and discount the abundance of clear scriptures on what our Lord has done for us.
Hebrews 10 is talking about Jewish people after hearing about Christ for the only sacrifice for sins and rejecting it to go back to the temple sacrifices for their sins.
Hebrews was written a few years before the temple system came crashing down in 70AD when it was trampled by the Roman army.
The "willful sinning" is after hearing the "knowledge" of the truth of Christ's sacrifice - those that go back to the temple sacrifices and do not receive Christ's work by faith - this is the wilful sinning being talked about - the rejection of Christ's sacrifice and blood for the forgiveness of all sins.
This is insulting the Spirit of grace. The Holy Spirit's work is to convict/convince/expose the world of their sin - which is unbelief in Christ's work. John 16:8-9
There is a vast difference between receiving the "knowledge" of the truth and "receiving the truth" which is Christ Himself.
if a spiritually gift, is given by by god , when did you lose it, the facts to how, did you receive, a spiritual gift. would only be denied by someone that thinks there is a logic answers
with no spiritual belief ,there would be no value to an unbeliever, knowing why he dies . you do not need, to read the bible to know that you die. strange the theory of logic, there is a open ended ,lesson called death, be a pal ,come back after. you seen him ,and tell me what you learned. \0/
with no spiritual belief ,there would be no value to an unbeliever, knowing why he dies . you do not need, to read the bible to know that you die. strange the theory of logic, there is a open ended ,lesson called death, be a pal ,come back after. you seen him ,and tell me what you learned. \0/
18 For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor
20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me.
I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.Galatians 2
so do i care, if death knows my name (food for thought)
20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me.
I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.Galatians 2
so do i care, if death knows my name (food for thought)
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I couldn't find one where Jesus had "obedience of faith", but I found these in Romans:
Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name's sake.
New Living Translation
Through Christ, God has given us the privilege and authority as apostles to tell Gentiles everywhere what God has done for them, so that they will believe and obey him, bringing glory to his name.
English Standard Version
through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations,
New American Standard Bible
through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake,
but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith--
New Living Translation
But now as the prophets foretold and as the eternal God has commanded, this message is made known to all Gentiles everywhere, so that they too might believe and obey him.
English Standard Version
but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith—
New American Standard Bible
but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;
Jesus was our example, that we should follow His steps.
Heb 5:6 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.
Paul here says that we have the obedience of faith. That means the same as "living by faith" as Romans says "the just shall LIVE by faith. A continual process that has obedience as evidence that faith is active.
This also proves what Desertrose has been saying all along.
Romans 1:5
New International Version
Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name's sake.
New Living Translation
Through Christ, God has given us the privilege and authority as apostles to tell Gentiles everywhere what God has done for them, so that they will believe and obey him, bringing glory to his name.
English Standard Version
through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations,
New American Standard Bible
through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake,
Romans 16:26
New International Version
but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith--
New Living Translation
But now as the prophets foretold and as the eternal God has commanded, this message is made known to all Gentiles everywhere, so that they too might believe and obey him.
English Standard Version
but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith—
New American Standard Bible
but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;
Jesus was our example, that we should follow His steps.
Heb 5:6 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.
Paul here says that we have the obedience of faith. That means the same as "living by faith" as Romans says "the just shall LIVE by faith. A continual process that has obedience as evidence that faith is active.
This also proves what Desertrose has been saying all along.
I can't recall when I've ever disagreed with DesertRose on anything.
I usually understand you too. Although I sometimes agree with you and further expand a thought and you think I'm disagreeing, which is trippy.
The obedience of faith has been a struggle for me. No sooner did I meet Him almost, when it started. The first thing I remember was the whole idea of only collecting enough for the day and not storing up treasure on earth. Our entire system is against this. Our entire system tells me I'll be eating catfood in my old age if I don't diligently store up treasure on earth. Yet He says to not worry about these things as unbelievers do, to trust that God will feed me, to be content if I have enough to eat and to not take care for tomorrow.
It's immediately obvious the our entire system works in direct opposition to all of that. And that to follow Him and believe Him, I have to give that all up as a delusion. I mean that's the only choice. What the world says and teaches and preaches or what He says. I can either choose to have the obedience of faith in Him and what He says or in the world and what it says.
And I see that He put the same choice before Israel in the dessert. And I see that they failed. He said collect only enough for the day, which plainly correlates with: don't store up treasure on earth. I can almost hear the echoes of our own arguments way back then - He didn't mean it literally, if you take Him literally and He doesn't drop food out of the sky tomorrow or the next day, and you haven't collected more than enough for the day, don't come crying to me when you and your children are starving because of your stupidity, He didn't say to leave your brain at the door of the tent of meeting, your of no earthly good because you take what He says too literally...
It's like nothing has changed too much.
And the obedience of faith is a struggle because the whole world and it's system and way presses against you when you struggle in faith in what He has said. And even your own mind struggles and strives against this faith, this trust. And everyday, you have to make the choice - what He said or what the world says.
And once you make it through the struggle of faith in that area, another struggle of the obedience of faith comes over Him saying He will never abandon you or leave you. Yet He seems to go silent and you can't seem to find Him and you become very thirsty for Him. He seems to be ignoring you. And you see the correlation with Israel in the desert. It says He allowed them to become very, very thirsty in the desert and it gives the reason as this: to see what they would do. Would they have the obedience of faith despite it appearing like He'd abandoned them and was going to let them die of thirst, or would they lose their trust?
And once you get into the obedience of faith and realize He's growing your character and endurance and the obedience of faith by what you are suffering, the next test of faith comes on another point or promise from Him.
I usually understand you too. Although I sometimes agree with you and further expand a thought and you think I'm disagreeing, which is trippy.
The obedience of faith has been a struggle for me. No sooner did I meet Him almost, when it started. The first thing I remember was the whole idea of only collecting enough for the day and not storing up treasure on earth. Our entire system is against this. Our entire system tells me I'll be eating catfood in my old age if I don't diligently store up treasure on earth. Yet He says to not worry about these things as unbelievers do, to trust that God will feed me, to be content if I have enough to eat and to not take care for tomorrow.
It's immediately obvious the our entire system works in direct opposition to all of that. And that to follow Him and believe Him, I have to give that all up as a delusion. I mean that's the only choice. What the world says and teaches and preaches or what He says. I can either choose to have the obedience of faith in Him and what He says or in the world and what it says.
And I see that He put the same choice before Israel in the dessert. And I see that they failed. He said collect only enough for the day, which plainly correlates with: don't store up treasure on earth. I can almost hear the echoes of our own arguments way back then - He didn't mean it literally, if you take Him literally and He doesn't drop food out of the sky tomorrow or the next day, and you haven't collected more than enough for the day, don't come crying to me when you and your children are starving because of your stupidity, He didn't say to leave your brain at the door of the tent of meeting, your of no earthly good because you take what He says too literally...
It's like nothing has changed too much.
And the obedience of faith is a struggle because the whole world and it's system and way presses against you when you struggle in faith in what He has said. And even your own mind struggles and strives against this faith, this trust. And everyday, you have to make the choice - what He said or what the world says.
And once you make it through the struggle of faith in that area, another struggle of the obedience of faith comes over Him saying He will never abandon you or leave you. Yet He seems to go silent and you can't seem to find Him and you become very thirsty for Him. He seems to be ignoring you. And you see the correlation with Israel in the desert. It says He allowed them to become very, very thirsty in the desert and it gives the reason as this: to see what they would do. Would they have the obedience of faith despite it appearing like He'd abandoned them and was going to let them die of thirst, or would they lose their trust?
And once you get into the obedience of faith and realize He's growing your character and endurance and the obedience of faith by what you are suffering, the next test of faith comes on another point or promise from Him.
Stephen Is Seized
Act 6:8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.
Act 6:9 Then there arose certain of the synagogue,which is called the synagogue of the Libertines, and Cyrenians, and Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and of Asia, disputing with Stephen.
Act 6:10 And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spake.
Act 6:11 Then they suborned men, which said, We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses, and against God.
Act 6:12 And they stirred up the people, and theelders, and the scribes, and came upon him, and caught him, and brought him to the council,
Act 6:13 And set up false witnesses, which said,This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, andthe law:
Hi brother Grace. I did explain myself to DC regarding theHebrew 10 quote and I am not going to do it again.
I have been reading Acts this week and this morning I was busy with Acts 6. If we had to discuss Stephen we can all agree that this guy was a warrior of God. He was a no nonsense kind of guy and loved God very dearly. The tactics of the enemy will always be the same and if we can identify the works of the enemy we will always know what he is planning. Just like with Jesus the only way the devil could accuse His followers was by making up lies about them. Stephen was killed outside the gates of the city but please study these verses and see what this warrior of God did. He kept the law brother. Are we really that blind? Can we really look at this and make the sacrifices of the first church fathers so cheap? I am ashamed to say that people on earth areblinded by their own lusts. We can only pray that God would forgive our arrogance towards His word.
God bless friends
Act 6:8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.
Act 6:9 Then there arose certain of the synagogue,which is called the synagogue of the Libertines, and Cyrenians, and Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and of Asia, disputing with Stephen.
Act 6:10 And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spake.
Act 6:11 Then they suborned men, which said, We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses, and against God.
Act 6:12 And they stirred up the people, and theelders, and the scribes, and came upon him, and caught him, and brought him to the council,
Act 6:13 And set up false witnesses, which said,This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, andthe law:
Hi brother Grace. I did explain myself to DC regarding theHebrew 10 quote and I am not going to do it again.
I have been reading Acts this week and this morning I was busy with Acts 6. If we had to discuss Stephen we can all agree that this guy was a warrior of God. He was a no nonsense kind of guy and loved God very dearly. The tactics of the enemy will always be the same and if we can identify the works of the enemy we will always know what he is planning. Just like with Jesus the only way the devil could accuse His followers was by making up lies about them. Stephen was killed outside the gates of the city but please study these verses and see what this warrior of God did. He kept the law brother. Are we really that blind? Can we really look at this and make the sacrifices of the first church fathers so cheap? I am ashamed to say that people on earth areblinded by their own lusts. We can only pray that God would forgive our arrogance towards His word.
God bless friends
E
I would say most if not all agree with you, It is go make disciples, it is Go and love the lord your God and your neighbor, it is seek after the things of the spirit, It is Grow in the grace and knowledge of the lord, it is study to shew ourselves approved.
But I will also say, and it happens as much today as it does in biblical times, there will be varying degrees of these things in all Gods people. Some will do alot of this, Some will still be babes, and not do much, Most probably are some where in between, but they are all Gods children and we should not judge them
and then i will also add, people defend legalism with as much passion, in an attempt to refute OSAS, It is like you take one extreme, and replace it with the opposite extreme, lest ye be tempted to believe the other extreme, Gods people have been doing this since the beginning of time.
it is a viscous circle.
But I will also say, and it happens as much today as it does in biblical times, there will be varying degrees of these things in all Gods people. Some will do alot of this, Some will still be babes, and not do much, Most probably are some where in between, but they are all Gods children and we should not judge them
and then i will also add, people defend legalism with as much passion, in an attempt to refute OSAS, It is like you take one extreme, and replace it with the opposite extreme, lest ye be tempted to believe the other extreme, Gods people have been doing this since the beginning of time.
it is a viscous circle.
E
Thats close?
what really is the difference in saying we are saved by works, or we maintain our salvation by works, are they not the same?
One says our salvation is not final until we work to earn it. A lock of work will disqualify us from being saved
The other says we are given salvation, But it must be maintained, in other words, it is not final until one works to earn it (lack of work will cause it to be lost, or disqualified)
what really is the difference in saying we are saved by works, or we maintain our salvation by works, are they not the same?
One says our salvation is not final until we work to earn it. A lock of work will disqualify us from being saved
The other says we are given salvation, But it must be maintained, in other words, it is not final until one works to earn it (lack of work will cause it to be lost, or disqualified)
The "willful sinning" in Hebrews 10:26 is the rejection of the sacrifice of Christ for the temple sacrifices instead. It is not because of people not following the law of Moses.
Then we need to be good Jews and stone those that don't "do the law." We need to be stoning Christians like Stephen. Stephen was a Jew and he would keep his heritage that he was brought up in.
It didn't take long for those that were zealous of the law to pervert the gospel.
Acts 21:20-21 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law;
[SUP]21 [/SUP] and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.
Paul did indeed tell " Gentile Christians" as well as the Jews that they didn't need to circumcise their children nor follow Moses anymore but to follow Christ that is in our hearts now.
Galatians 5:1-3 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
When we start stoning others for not keeping the Sabbath day as in the Old Testament - then we will be following the law but thank God we are not under the law anymore but under grace and "in Christ" only. His life in us is how we live now.
Bless you and for those that like to observe the Sabbath from Friday to Saturday - I say "Shalom and happy Sabbath". I have no problem with anyone on how they observe the Sabbath in what ever form they choose.
What I do come against vehemently because it is a distortion of the gospel is when Judaizers come and say "We must follow the Sabbath as outlined in the Old Testament or we are sinning and dis-obeying God".
That is "the Dividing Line on the BDF" for me in this subject.