Not By Works

Seohce · Jul 25, 2017

Only proves you don't have the Holy Spirit because you won't let Him work in you as His spiritual vessel. The person who truly has the Holy Spirit manifests a faith that worketh in love and you clearly don't have this love for you cannot OBEY His commands.

New International Version 1984 Ephesians 4:1-16 Unity in the Body of Christ As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. BE COMPLETELY HUMBLE AND GENTLE; be patient, bearing with one another in love. MAKE EVERY EFFORT TO KEEP THE UNITY OF THE SPIRIT through the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men.” (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.

How can anyone reject GOOD WORKS while claiming on the other hand that it is God who works in and through a believer and to make the confusion worse, while claiming to have the HS, they blatantly declare that they are SINNERS who continue to sin daily and therefore making God whom they claim to live in them is the one sinning because they have no participation in what they do. They make more confusing remarks along with cursings and insults to push their doctrines and to demean other believers who stand on their way.

1 Corinthians 14:37-40 If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command. If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored. Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.

THIS IS MY FINAL APPEAL TO YOU TO STOP DIVIDING THE CHURCH AND TO REPENT AND ADMIT YOUR MISTAKES FOR THE SAKE OF OTHER BELIEVERS.

IF YOU DECIDE NOT TO LISTEN TO MY PLEA, THEN I CHALLENGE YOU TO TAKE HEED AND TAKE ACTION ON JESUS' COMMAND FOR YOU TO SELL YOUR POSSESSIONS TO BE GIVEN TO THE POOR IN ALL HONESTY AND COMPASSION OUT OF LOVE FOR GOD.

1 John 5:1-3 Faith in the Son of God Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,

1 John 3:16-18 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.

REMEMBER:

John 8:47 He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

John 12:47-50 “As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day. For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”

I HAVE NO RIGHT TO JUDGE YOU BUT I KNOW YOU CAN HANDLE THIS AS AN EX-MARINE AND AN ETERNALLY SAVED CHILD OF GOD AS YOU CLAIM.

IT IS YOUR DECLARATION THAT WORKS ARE THE RESULT OF SALVATION THROUGH FAITH AND THE EVIDENCE OR PROOF THEM.

SORRY PAL BUT CAN YOU PROVE THAT "SAVING FAITH" THAT YOU ARE CLAIMING TO ALREADY POSSESS WITH YOUR SALVATION?

UnderGrace · Jul 25, 2017

We are to be like Jesus.

Jesus is said to be full of grace (John 1:14)

[SUP]14 [/SUP]And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Jesus gives us His Grace to be like Him

If were are not living and doing through and in His Grace we labour in vain.

Unless the Lord builds the house,
those who build it labor in vain.
Psalm 127

followjesus said:

But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
John 14:25

what of the context there ? doesnt the scripture all around that have some bearing on How that is meant to be understood? take a look.

John 14:15-25 "If ye love me, keep my commandments.16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you....V 21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 22Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

how is it that the gog requires a single verse and contradicts the actual context? thats How those new authors are revolutionizing the Gospel, by ommiting things they Know sinners dont want to Hear. in order to make a message thats friendly....even though its not the actual Gospel. as you see above Jesus was saying something. all of those verses are there for understanding. when a person plucks a single verse to exclude the context theres an issue.

He says Love me, Obey my commands and I will ask the Father and He will send the spirit to you. Judas asks why will you show us and not the world? Jesus replies if a mans Loves me He will keep my words and the Father will Love Him....if anyone doesnt Love me He will not obey my word...He then makes it really powerful when He says " the word you hear is not mine, it belongs to God the Father who sent me.

thats a pretty important part about receiving the spirit, to understand who is giving it, and what He said about How to receive it wouldnt you think? its not as if i say " Ibelieve Jesus doied for my sins and was raised to Life" now all the sudden were filled with the spirit of God and just need to listen to Our inner monologue now. its about the Gospel about Hearing the Word of God, and keeping it. when Jesus is actually the Lord then the spirit comes and even then Our work is not over this is when were equipped with all we need to run the race, put the flesh to death and walk in the righteousness of God Litterally actually perform the right things and stop following the wrong.

Faith doesnt mean because we say i have faith, now theres nothing for me to do, having faith means its now time to get to work to follow Gods Word unto salvation. put the flesh to death by FOLLOWING the spirit. the spirit is there saying repent of the sin you know you have commited stop doing that and instead do this other thing that Jesus said to do. notice the spirit reminds of what Jesus said in the Gospel. thats How were taught through the Word of God. we cant on one hand omit what doesnt sound easy and then claim all the promises to those who repent and obey and actually do Gods Will. we have to treat God......as if He is Our God. and who would ever not obey thier God and then claim what he promised to those who do?

Katy-follower · Jul 26, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

I agree. It does seem like some on here are trying to be Jewish. The Jews see sabbath keeping as a necessary requirement, because they reject Jesus, and so are stuck under the old covenant.

But there's more to this sabbath than some realize, so I wonder if they'll admit to keeping it perfectly then?

From what I know, it runs from Friday-Saturday (sunset to sunset). During that time you need to cease from all activity that's considered a work. No electricity allowed, so no turning lights on and off, no opening your fridge even, because of the fridge light, no posting on CC either, as that means use of a computer

, no shaving, no driving, no traveling, and endless other restrictions.

And why just the sabbath, why not acknowledge the other Jewish holidays also, such as the feasts and fast days, since they are also a Jewish requirement?

At the end of the day, there's nothing wrong with picking one day over another (we're to be fully convinced in our own minds), just that there's a problem when you make sabbath keeping a necessary requirement and then judge others that don't keep that day.

Katy-follower · Jul 26, 2017

dcontroversal said:

Does sound exhausting. So what happens to the HS? He keeps jumping in and out of the body?

Sealed...unsealed...sealed, etc...

followjesus · Jul 26, 2017

zone said:

its not without works, and its not because of works. its By Faith, and faith without works is useless. faith and works are not seperate One doesnt exist without the other. the statement not saved by works is true, and the statement faith without works is dead and cant save anyone is true. this post was never going to lead to any answer because the subject conflicts with itself.

if a person only believes a few scriptures one can conclude works have no part in it, if one believes the whole counsel of God, works cant be separated from genuine faith. Faith and works go hand in Hand and complete each other. works without faith are nothing, and faith without works is nothing. the whole subject no matter what the post trying to seperate one principle that is the whole answer will never go anywhere productive just like the grace v works debate. no one in Grace or with faith will ever have a problem doing the things of God, and no one trying to do Gods things without Jesus have missed the Point. there isnt One answer to salvation One could say Jesus is the answer and thats true, yet Jesus taught many things. He spoke of Grace, taught service and obedience, repentance, taught of faith, of new birth, the Holy spirit.

He instructed, rebuked, forgave, comforted, corrected, warned......all we can do that will produce anything real is share what we have learned, and not try to make One principle the answer to the questions, all of it goes together all of it applies and all has an order to come to the answers. to say its all by Faith and then on the other hand claim works have no part in faith falls short, it pits one part against the other making faith and doing the works of faith opposition. which is entirely unbiblical. they arent opposed they are the completion of each other gotta Have faith to do the works of salvation, thats How faith saves because it enebles and motivates us to do what were taught by God to actually do.

Katy-follower · Jul 26, 2017

PHart said:

I have a problem with how some interpret that scripture. For one, look at that word "adversaries".

God's children are NO LONGER adversaries (enemies). You either belong to God (through ONE spiritual birth) or you're lost in the world and considered an enemy of Christ through your current rejection. You don't go from being an enemy to reconciled, then back to being an enemy again.

The devil is our adversary and is said to be the father of those who are currently lost in the world. The lost are currently enemies, and as believers we used to be enemies also.

Nowhere do the scriptures say that one goes from being a beloved child of God to an enemy, from wheat to tares, from sheep to goats, from righteous to unrighteous.

How is this not understood?

Believers used to be enemies, but no longer...

Romans 5:8-11: "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation"

Colossians 1:19-23: For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister" - the "If indeed" being confirmation, not a condition. I've noticed "If indeed" is used a lot throughout the scriptures, to confirm the mark of a true believer. In Romans 8 it says "if indeed we suffer" meaning that true believers are not of the world, so we will suffer persecution as Jesus also suffered. A servant is not greater than their master. Again, it confirms the mark of a true believer, as opposed to making it a condition.

followjesus · Jul 26, 2017

Katy-follower said:

another part of that commandment is 6 days do your work, and rest on the seventh. so really if were not working 6 days, were not fulfilling that command, However, its valid now also its Just that were looking to the spirit rather than the letter of it. the importance of the sabbath is to Honor God who created the World and all that is in it. Jesus actually broke the sabbath if a person is looking at it by the letter. the Jews werent allowed to harvest or do any work whatsoever on the sabbath they werent allowed to gather food, gather firewood anything that is work. Jesus and the Apostles were gathering wheat to eat on a sabbath and Jesus also Healed on the sabbath. the change is that it is lawful, to do good on the sabbath even if it requires some form of work.

a neigb=hbor needs Help moving, an eloderly person needs thier lawn mowed, a person needs help ect. to do good on the sabbath is lawful. its not that were not to Keep the sabbath, its that we need to accept what the Gospel says is the right way to keep it. Jesus was Jewish by birth and He didnt follow the Law of moses he actually transgressed it a few different times, he did keep the 10 commandments, He just understood the sabbath because He is the Lord of the sabbath. but as far as the mosaic Law goes, that was meant for sinners, which Jesus was not One. the Mosaic Law and ten commandments arent the same thing. the mosaic Law has the commandment to stone the adulterer, it isnt up for negotiation in the Law if one was caught in adultery the command of God was that they must surely be put to death by the congregation. Jesus directly disobeyed this command of the Law when He saved the adulterer from stoning. again a direct commandment of the mosaic Law.

Jesus want re hashing the Law of Moses, it was no longer taught after John was imprisoned, from that point forward God was teaching the Gospel of the Kingdom. the law commands no mercy upon the sinner, Jesus commands mercy upon those who sin against us. the law commands animal sacrifice for forgiveness, Jesus commands forgiving others for forgiveness, the law commands that divorse is okay if your wife displeases you, and your both free to remarry others, the gospel says there is no valid reason for divorce, but for the cause of fornication and to re marry otherwise is forbidden and actually causes adultery, the law commands keeping the passover with a lambs feast for remembrance of God delivering israel from slavery in Egypt, Jesus commands taking communion in remembrance of His deliverance for us. those are just a few examples of the contrast between the Mosaic Law, and the Gospel of the Kingdom of God. and they are the two covenants and both include the ten commandments.

When Paul repeats what Jesus said about fulfilling the law by Love, he refers to the ten commandments and explains that " Love thy neighbor, is a summary of the commandments. its not a different thing, its Just a summary because if im stealing from you its not real Love, if im lying to you its not real Love, if im cheating on my wife, its not real Love, if im dishonoring my parents its not real Love ect.... the commandments of God are different from the mosaic Laws. the 10 commandments were written By Gods finger, the law of moses was given to moses because the people were so rebellious thats why its so harsh and all about destroying the sinner from among the people. God dwelt in a tent with them Lived in thier camp among them sin had to be dealt with that way for the good of the many. its different now God dwells in each person so the purging of sin is accomplished through putting our sinful part to death.

The mosaic law was to focus on the other guys sin and punish them according to the letter of the Law in order to purge the sin from among the people, Now though we uinderstand that is a foretelling of " you must put to death the sinful nature within yourself, or you must crucify the flesh with its misdeeds" in order to purge the sin from our own self and Life. Judgement changed we now focus on our transgressions and rid ourselves of them. its really quite contrary the gospel and the Mosaic law. the morality remains but the Law itself that is a witness against sinners thats done.

Katy-follower · Jul 26, 2017

PHart said:

Haven't you been sanctified by the blood of the New Covenant through faith in that blood? If so, Hebrews 10:26-31 applies to you. Every believer was sanctified (set apart unto God for a Holy purpose) when they first believed (Acts 26:18). (From there we also grow up into the sanctifying work of God in our personal growth in Christ).

If you, believer, who have been sanctified by the blood of Christ trample on the blood of Christ in a return to your old life of unbelief, you will not be chastised as a Son is lovingly chastised, you will be burned up with the rest of God's enemies at the Judgment as an unbeliever.

The words of Hebrews 10:26-31 are plain. Don't let a besetting sin tempt anyone to make the words mean something else, or be for someone else. They are for believers. God's grace can and will set you free from your besetting sin.....if you humble yourself and fall at his feet, and most importantly, if you keep believing in the blood of Christ.

Don't forget Verse 39. A distinction is made: "But we (believers) are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul"

Katy-follower · Jul 26, 2017

PHart said:

One who crosses over from death to life, having become a new creature in Christ, now changed and aware of what they were saved from (since they've been convicted of their sins).... how does that person then behave like a lost person in bondage, saying there is no God?

Do you see how impossible that would be, once a person's eyes have been opened. You don't go back to blindness once your eyes have been opened. But the blind all along never had the truth to begin with.... those would not be believers losing salvation, since they were never saved.

Some might say a prodigal child no longer believes, because they have drifted off for a time, but God keeps us. He never loses any that belong to Him. Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. He finishes what He starts. That's His promise.

Katy-follower · Jul 26, 2017

dcontroversal said:

I guess you could even say that in addition to this it's a rejection of God's omniscience too.

Since He does know the beginning from the end. He knew every sin we would ever commit before we were even born, and saved us while we were enemies. So this idea of being saved, unsaved, saved again, unsaved again is completely alien even to this solid fact.

followjesus · Jul 26, 2017

Katy-follower said:

its not just that one scripture man look here its the same principle

1 peter 1: 15-21 "As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: 15But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: 18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

its a constant thing in scripture constant warning and instruction to repent and live right. your referring to the sheep and goats, what makes the determination between them? they both call Jesus Lord so thats not the difference, the difference is one group did the right things, the other group didnt do those things. it isnt about what they secretly believed but about what they did because they believed.

you refer to children of God How are they identified?

1 john 3:9-10 "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

again its about what we do, the difference isnt that we say grace grace or even that we say Jesus died for us, the difference and the way Gods children are recognized is by what they do whether they work righteousness or sin. many dont even think the devil has children, yet John would probably Know better than us. and also Jesus makes reference to children of the devil a few times, also related directly to what they do heres one example

john 8:42-47 "Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: ( see john 14:15-24)for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 46Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

again

mark 3:35 "For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother. ( which again would make us the Brother of Jesus, and therefore children of God based once again on what we do, not what we think inwardly and then refuse to do, but on what we actually do. to say were saved by faith is true but its not an explaination because faith has to be defined what it really is is faithfulness in deed, simply doing the right things all because Jesus made us right and able. having faith doesnt them mean now were free from doing the works of salvation, faith is what moves us to action all because Jesus Loved us and supplied us with all we need to live a Godly upright life, but just being enabled and then refusing to do the right things thats just a person squandering the great work of God because they love sin More than Jesus. we can say Just love thats the Law now lol but again

1john 5:2-3 "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

theres no way as much as people try, to seprate Love from obeying Gods ways and commands and principles....his word of instruction. thats what Love is, when were keeping the commands were Loving others. when were obeying Jesus were keeping the commandments. when were walking in faith, were doing the things God has taught theres just no " dividing" the things that go together and cant be seperated again whats Jesus say there about Loving Hoim in john 14? " whoever Loves me will keep my commands" if a man loves me not, He will not obey my word"

we cant now change whats already written and was spoken By the Lord and promise salvation to people from some different source or new age gospel that refuses Jesus word about His own Kingdom. Love requires obedience to God, faith and works are companions one is not complete without the other. when One person is quoting and obedience set of scriptures, its not then nullified by another scripture thats speaking about Grace. those 2 things are Both true and valid. they go together all of it does. we spend far too much time trying to oppose one set of verses against the others, when the real idea is to put the 2 principles together not try to say well works are everything, or no garace means no work and thats everything. Grace, faith, repentance, obedience those things all go together and all have to be believed and sought after. God was never trying to confuse people with the Bible He was speaking to all who will believe Him and everything in the word has a perfect harmony with everything else.

There is no coming together or growing in Knowledge when one believes only 20 percent of the scripture and denies the validity of the rest, when its only about the obedience and then grace is not accepted, or when its all about grace, and the obedience isnt accepted. its not meant to be that way. we accept that Gods gracious, and we also accept that were to repent and live right. act in the right repent of the wrong. that doesnt nullify Grace either, when a person accepts " yes repentance is a requirement of Christian doctrine meaning actually stop commiting whatever sin you have been convicted of By the Holy spirit. thats repentance to stop doing what we Know is sin from Gods word telling us what is sin. that doesnt then mean were not saved by Grace, nor does Being saved By Grace, nullify the fact of repentance and doing our part now that weve been enabled. its all Gods Word and all meant for us to first believe, and then put into action.

followjesus · Jul 26, 2017

Katy-follower said:

can i ask you guys who is saying saved, unsaved, saved , unsaved? i think possibly thats something your seeing thats not there. How do you define salvation? salvation from what? is it salvation from obeying God and doing whats right? or is it salvation from sin, that brings condemnation? are we freed from having to repent of our sin, and obey God? or are we free from the control of sin over us as a slavemaster? How is it that Grace is opposed to repenting of sin and obeying God? How do those two principles conflict when Grace and faith are for the purpose of teaching and enabling us to repent and Live right ?

titus 2:11-15 "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.15These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee"

why then is there this idea that grace somehow opposes repentance and Living Right? and doesnt being zealous of Good works kind of ring to the " not by works thing?" shouldnt a person that really gets grace become Zealous for those good works that seem to somehow Get labeled a self attempt to save ones self? this is how im seing the gog interpretation of that

" the Grace of God has come that forces all men to be saved against thier will and without them willingly doing any work. Grace teaches us that we dont need to repent of our sins and live right in this present world, because that then would be salf works salvation and youve missed grace. for Jesus gave Himself for us to redeem us from needingto repent and making us opposed to Good works"

maybe thats just what im reading into But How is it that Grace is an opposition and a rebuke of good works and if a person begins thinking they need to do those Good works or in other words become zealous of the good works somehow that person missed grace? it doesnt really make sense. and How is it that paul taught us that were already saved no matter what and then Himself He says He labored intently seeking for the resurrection and eternal Life, so that he wouldnt become a castaway? was paul not already saved? the thing is were not suppose to be judging ourselves as innocent or worthy of salvation, thats Jesus alone who has that role paul taught that also saying " i do not even Judge myself, i have a clear conscience but that doesnt make me innocent, therefore Judge nothing before the time when Jesus comes who will Judge each persons work impartially?"

to me this is just a result of false doctrine that dominates the church. teaching things Like grace and works are opposed theres nothing for you to do, your already saved you can never lose salvation ect those things really arent there. there are many many wanrings about Losing our inheritance in Gods Kingdom. many warnings by the same Guy that taught about Grace in the same letters to the same Church.

Katy-follower · Jul 26, 2017

FranC said:

What would you class as leaving? Because a believer can drift into the world as a prodigal child, but they are still a child. And I believe it's impossible that a person who has been born of the Spirit as a new creature in Christ, with eyes to see... how do they then become an atheist who says there is no God? Just impossible. But if the person was never saved to begin with then it would appear as if they were a believer that became an atheist...

I think the fact the scriptures state that the Holy Spirit is our deposit of our inheritance is enough confirmation. He's our guarantee. I don't see any scriptures that say He, as our deposit, is taken away, because why would God break His promises? I do see a lot of scriptures promising that all who have been born of the Spirit will be glorified in the end, and multiple other scriptures confirming eternal security, which is actually a basic of the christian faith. And if you think about it, it's another thing that separates the true faith from all the religions of the world... not just the gospel itself as the false religions teach a different gospel, but they also teach that you can never be sure, and that doctrine offers no hope to anyone. The lost are stuck in chains to these systems. God says "the truth shall set you free"... "And we know" (Romans 8). Lots of assurance in the scriptures, because God doesn't want us to be insecure about our salvation. How could a believer be an effective witness to the lost, if they themselves are fretting about their own eternal security?

In your post, you mentioned the foolish virgins. This parallels with the judgment day scripture, which makes clear who the foolish virgins are. Just posting the relevant verse, but it can be read in full v1-13. Funny, my auto correct called them "Polish" virgins, not foolish, lol

Matthew 25:11-13: “Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’ “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming"

Matthew 7:22-23: Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

This confirms that they don't belong to Him, since He says "I never knew you". Which means they were never saved at any point, otherwise He would've said "I used to know you but no longer do". So they were never His, they were never believers.

Your post is really long, so will read through the rest tomorrow. Need to sleep now.

LoveGodForever · Jul 26, 2017

Katy-follower said:

Hi CatLady

Hope you had a great rest and fed all your cats

? You know Katy, a lot of the things you say and the scripture you quote are correct. However, I think you make a mistake in the interpretation of the scripture. Check and see what I am saying is correct or not but your scripture quotes are talking about the "Believer" one that is abiding and following God in the present tense of the Word. The scriptures you quote are not talking about someone that has followed God as a believer and has chosen to leave God and go back into the world choosing a life of sin and not returning to Jesus.

This is not to say someone that was a believer and comes back to God will not be saved. They will be saved if they return to God (Prodigal son). There however will be those that because of the freewill God gives us choose to go back in to the World after believing God and decide not to come back to God. These are the class that God's Word says will be lost. Why because they have rejected God through their unbelief in His Word. They have chosen to believe the first lie from the Garden of Eden "Ye shall not surely die if you eat of the forbidden fruit" Ignoring the Word of God that says "Not to touch or eat of the fruit lest ye die" or "the wages of sin is death (Gen 3:1-5; Rom 6:23)

You can look all through God's Word from Genesis to Revelations and you will see that God has always had a believing people that at some point believed God but choose to go back into the world in rebellion and reaped what they sowed.

Scripture Support:

Eze 3:20
Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

Eze 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sins, it shall die.

Rom 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Mat 13:18-23

Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that hears the word, and anon with joy receiveth it <believer>Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution arise because of the word, by and by he is offended ,<Believer leaves God>

Mat 13:22,

He also that received seed among the thorns is he that hears the word <believer>; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful <Believer leaves God>.

Mat 13:23,
But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also bears fruit, and brings forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty <Saved believer staying with Christ>.

More Scripture support: (from another post)

Colossians 1v21-23
[SUP]
21 [/SUP]And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled <become believers> [SUP]22 [/SUP]in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— [SUP]23 [/SUP]if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Now what is plain to see is this:
-These were believers above
-They were to be presented holy, blameless and above reproach (no scope for unrepentant sin in a believers life)
-this is possible (IF THEY CONTINUED IN THE FAITH) - grounded, steadfast, not moved.

Other evidences:

Luke 22 v31-32

[SUP]31 [/SUP]And the Lord said,[SUP][c][/SUP] “Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. [SUP]32 [/SUP]But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren.”

Now what is plain to see is this:
-If it were not possible for faith to fail, as the strong delusionalists claim, then it would not be necessary for Jesus to have had to pray to the Father this prayer above.

1 Timothy 2 v18-20

[SUP]18 [/SUP]This charge I commit to you, son Timothy, according to the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, [SUP]19 [/SUP]having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, [SUP]20 [/SUP]of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.

2 Timothy 2 v16-19
[SUP]16 [/SUP]But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, [SUP]18 [/SUP]who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ[SUP][c][/SUP] depart from iniquity.”

Now what is plain to see is this:
-its possible to stray concerning the truth
-its possible to once have known the truth but to have strayed therefrom
-faith can be overthrown.
-these people are no longer saved. Because you can only receive salvation through faith.
-sin is still a factor " Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity". Contrary to what the strong delusionalists say.

Jude
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

Now what is plain to see is this:
-contending for the faith - its a prize. It is to be protected, defended, fought for.
-by not contending for this, it can be lost.

2 Timothy 4v7-8

[SUP]7 [/SUP]I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Now what is plain to see is this:
-Paul, writer of most of the New Testament, fought the good fight. Finished the course. And KEPT the faith.
-why would it be necessary for him to write about "kept the faith" if it wasn't possible to have lost faith.

1 John 5v4
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our[SUP][a][/SUP] faith.

Now what is plain to see is this:
-Our faith is what overcomes the world. We are supposed to OVERCOME THE WORLD.
-What is the world? (definition:1 John 2v16 [SUP]16 [/SUP]For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world).

Revelation 2v10b
10(b) Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Now what is plain to see is this:
-Faith is not a once off, momentary decision, applicable for all time.
-Faith, once received, once believed, is to be maintained.
-the corollary is this - if you are NOT faithful until death, or lose your faith, you shall not receive the crown of life.

The word is very clear - its to him who overcomes:
Revelation 2v7b To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life
Revelation 2v11b He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.
Revelation 2v17b To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat.
Revelation 2v26 [SUP]26 [/SUP]And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—
Revelation 3v5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life
Revelation 3v12He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more.
Revelation 3v21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne

Now to those who lose the faith. Who once had the faith yet turned their backs on Christ, we have the subject matter of the 'other' thread. Which is clearly visible for all to see below:

Hebrews 6v4-6

[SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]5 [/SUP]and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, [SUP]6 [/SUP]if they fall away,[SUP][b][/SUP] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Now what is plain to see is this:
-Let there no illusions that these were believers, and were once in the faith.
-once they "fall away" (and we can see that this is a very real risk warned about by the NT writers, as well as Jesus) to be renewed again unto repentance.

There are too many to post. I think you get the point

God bless you

PeterJens · Jul 26, 2017

dcontroversal said:

dc - You are brain washed into fake faith. Your fake Jesus cannot change you,
you have to have an alien heart put in you that is now the real you, and your flesh
your passions must be destroyed when you die.

Problem is your alien heart is delusion, your body is you, so when it dies you die.
Jesus either makes the whole of you into a child of God or you are lost.

Jesus washed us clean, made us whole, brought us into new life. Yes inappropriate
reactions must be tamed, new things learnt, our thoughts brought into obedience,
so we walk like Jesus, but your fake Jesus cannot do this, as you declare daily.

I wonder how you fight in defeat and yet claim victory, it is so empty and vacuous.
Jesus is everything to you yet you do not follow His words or walk in obedience
or preach repentance and sorrow for sins. Such an odd faith you believe in.

PeterJens · Jul 26, 2017

If the Holy Spirit is the deposit guaranteeing eternity, how is it so so so many claim to speak from God yet speak gibberish.
Emotional elation for many is there reassurance, and so so so many have walked away, and no longer dwell there, I doubt anything is true for them anymore.

A seal is reassurance for those who dwell in Christ. Without this I would fade away, we need to know God speaking deeply to our souls, but this is communion, the basis of the Kingdom, but lives because we dwell with Christ. Abide in the vine and live, leave and you wither and die.

PeterJens · Jul 26, 2017

dcontroversal said:

Got to say the hardness of heart and total condemnation of some, God was locked out many years
ago and a fake faith put in its place like an idol, which will put up with any junk put forward by their
hearts.

The biggest lies are the best. " I am not religious yet I use religious language exclusively and fail to
love and respect others and what they say. "

Those who speak the truth stand by their words and convictions. Claiming disbelief defines sin, is like
saying a blind man is blind because he can see. Junk, stupidity, a total contradiction.

Only believers care about disbelief, and those who have heard Christ. Most have no clue.
Sin binds, enslaves and rips hope from the heart in despair throwing people into hell in a fit of giving up
to the passions of sin and selfishness.

But those who worship the dead idol of their youth, have nothing but bitterness to pull down their kingdom
of disappointment and failure, not seeing they never actually entered in.

Grace777x70 · Jul 26, 2017

Jackson123 said:

If that were true - then these scripture says that every Christian is in hell.

Ephesians 6:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

1 Peter 4:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you;

Mark 9:49(NASB)
[SUP]49 [/SUP] "For everyone will be salted with fire.

Luke 3:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] John answered and said to them all, "As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Luke 12:49 (NASB)
[SUP]49 [/SUP]"I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled!

followjesus · Jul 26, 2017

Katy-follower said:

also though salvation doesnt bind us or force us, its not that God Loses anyone that belongs to Him, but we can go back to " egypt" if that makes any sense to you. the flesh has a hard pull and the spirit is easily stifled through disobedience. through quieting that call of the spirit to act. the more we do that, the less Our "ears" Hear we can refuse to be saved. Like being dragged from a burning building, if we then run back into the flames we cant then say Our savior Lost us. we have a will of flesh in us its will is to follow sin, selfishness it seeks to be its own "god" and that part of us is an enemy it really desires whats forbidden, and the things of God arent appealing to the sinful part of us because that part of us somewhere in it, Knows coming to God will starve its appetite for those sinful things it desires and eventually put that part to death.

if we walk away from God surely Hes always there if we return, but Jesus isnt coming Back to die again or to re-save anyone. Hes already made the way, and provided us with the ability to do what we have to do. we actually do OWE Jesus He paid for our Lives and commanded repentance and obedience. there are two ways to see that. well " if i have to be ruled by Jesus and actually obey Hois word, then im not free im still a slave" that view is of the flesh it looks at it as oppression, Like God is a dictator.

the Born again person should realize though that those things God forbids and commands us to do, are not oppression, but those things are for our Good. repentance of sin, because sin kills and thats actually what makes a person an enemy its thier evil behavior that turns the mind against God. so repentance while a sinner doesnt want to do that, is Like telling your Kid " you are not allowed to play in the middle of the street, if a car comes too fast and doesnt see you, you will die" Gods word is for our Good, we should all realize that because we can all agree that God IS Good and He Loves us. So like a parent would forbid thier Kids from partaking in deadly situations, so God has forbidden His children from partaking in what will kill.

its the same with what He tells us TO do. its for our Good, its what makes us free to stop sinning without worry or guilt and start doing the right things without worry or shame. it really ultimately comes down to what we do now that we have the choice. its all provided for by Jesus, its made available and were made well able By whats been done. so mant talk of the cross, the ultimate purpose of that and the resurrection is to send the Spirit ofthe Mighty God to become one with the believer in Jesus Christ His Only Son. so we cant just say well im not able to change my ways, because when you receive the spirit of God, you have received all the power given By God to do what will save.

its notthat Jesus did all were commanded to do for us, He Gets the glory because without Hos provision we were Lost, Now though what He has done if one does Have the spirit in them.....is made us able through His power to do our part out of Love for Him. Because He has done it for us, and taught us what to do all glory to God through Jesus Christ anything we do is a result of what Hes done....but that will never be the reason we dont need to do our part and follow those things He commanded. its actually the opposite its the reason we are willing to do those things, the reason we are able to do whats required. its backwards to take the verses that teach us that all glory Goes to Jesus and use those and an excuse of why were not to do the word He taught and said plainly you do these things.

anyone and im not saying you are saying this, but anyone whos doctrine is the reasons why were not required to repent of our sin and actually do what Jesus actually said to do, is not at all speaking from the spirit of God. surely there are times when we fall, we even walk the other way for a bit, we sometimes sit down and rest and arent really in obedience at those times and that is where the grace comes in. but we still even then have to stand Back up and continue the walk Home. we still have to turn around and stop walking away. you know ?

the idea that comes from the gog just has it all wrong to be Honest. Jesus did what He did so we could then have all we need including partaking of Gods divine nature through the spirit given through Jesus. that gog idea that because Jesus did what He did now we dont need to actually learn, believe and act upon His word is never now never has been or will be what God says. we do have a huge part in our own salvation and our part can lead wither way to Heaven, or to Hell. thats not a popular understanding but its very true. there will be people who knew Jesus died for thier sins in hell it will be those who refused to follow the spirit, those who refused to repent of sin and obey God even having the Knowledge of all Jesus did for us. to Know and believe those things and then not act accordingly will be a greater condemnation than those of the Law.

they have the excuse " we were only human sinners we had no holy spirit in us to make us new and able. we dont have that excuse especially when the understanding " were no longer sinners, weve been made new is there. you know the transgressers of the first covenant were never told theyd go to Hell, thiser punishments for disobedience was physical death, or excommunication from belonging to God. ultimately israel was punished as a whole for disobedience its why the Jews have been by far the most persecuted People on earth, God promised that to them several times when they continually rebelled, eventually He said alright you have boken My covenant with you now you will Know my wrath and be persecuted and scattered to the ends of the earth. they were never told youll go to Hell for eternity that came also with Jesus because the gospel is an eternal thing its eternal Life, or eternal Punishment now. all because the old covenant was ourchased with the blood of animals. and the new is from the shedding of the Blood of Gods One and only begotten Son, thats an infinately higher price that was paid for our sins compared to the blood of an innocent animal.

the new covenant is greater in every way greater provision, Greater calling, Greater rewards, Greater punishment. because its eternal in nature rather than blessings of temporal things, were talking eternal Life.rather than curses of temporal things, were talking the fires of hell. those things arent offered or warned of in the Law. they are mentioned a very few times in the prophets but every time is a foretelling of what the Messiah would bring, its never taught as a orinciple of the old copvenant niether eternal Life or torment is tied to the first covenant. it also comes with the gospel. but were not of the flesh anymore but children of God who is spirit. we have to begin accepting what the Bible actually says rather than picking and choosing what fits our personal theology and tossing what we dont agree with away. when we dont agree with a new testament principle or even an ot one, we are in the wrong its never that God Had it wrong that should make us get that if we dont agree with Gods Word, we need to change that belief and bring it to recoincile with what God has said.

too many think what they think trumps whats there in the Word, God is God He is good, He is right, He will never steer us wrong, He will never tell us a lie whether good or bad, He will never bend His word to meet our thinking He is God we are His creation. Hes Our Lord, we are beneath God we are the servants, He is the Father, we are the children He is always right and Knows Best and speaks for our good. He always tells the unfiltered truth for a reason, always makes His repeated warnings so we cant then go tell Him " well you never taught me that so im not guilty, you never told me about repentance and obedience so im not guilty. He is Just and will Keep His word both blessing and curses. God is who He says He is Not what we want to shape Him into.

LoveGodForever · Jul 26, 2017

Hi all,

I think there is some good points in this post hope you enjoy it.

Abiding in Christ and complete dependence in the Word of God by faith

What does it mean to abide in Christ (the vine)?
The definition of what it means to abide is here:

John 15 [SUP]10 [/SUP]If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
2 John 1v9 [SUP]9 [/SUP]Whoever transgresses[SUP][d][/SUP] and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.

John 15
1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;[SUP][a][/SUP] and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

This is the fruit of the Spirit, namely: Galatians 5 [SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, [SUP]23 [/SUP]gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. [SUP]24 [/SUP]And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Without Christ, we have not the Spirit. Romans 8v9 [SUP]9 [/SUP]But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
So in order to live by the Spirit (producing fruit, which is of God), we are to believe and obey Christ’s doctrine (abiding in Him). And here is the proof in the next verses.

[SUP]
3 [/SUP]You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Abide in Me, and I in you <the Word of God in us: see verse 7 below>. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me <faith in God's Word>.

No fruit can be produced unless you are obedient to the doctrine of Christ.
The Fruit of the Spirit is the outcome of Obedience to Christ (all His Words, His Doctrine: see 2 john 1v9 above)

[SUP]
5 [/SUP]“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. [SUP]6 [/SUP]If anyone does not abide in Me <keep His commandments>, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Continued disobedience (living in willful sin) results in condemnation.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will[SUP][b][/SUP] ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. [SUP]8 [/SUP]By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

The ultimate objective is the bearing of fruit to the glory of God the Father. It is the character of godliness formed in you (Fruit of the Spirit).
Which is not possible without your obedience which is by faith in God's Word (abiding in Him)
Your disobedience = No Fruit Possible.
No fruit = Branch cut off

[SUP]
9 [/SUP]“As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. [SUP]10 [/SUP]If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
-herein above ^^^ lies the definition of abiding in Him.
[SUP]
11 [/SUP]“These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full. [SUP]12 [/SUP]This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends. [SUP]14 [/SUP]You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.

Jesus laid down His life for His friends v13
Jesus calls us His friends if we obey his commands v14 we obey him by faith (to love one another)
Those who disobey His commands are not His friends v14
Therefore those who disobey His commands do not partake of Christ’s death on the cross v13 and v14. They haven’t died to self. Their old man is not identified with Christ on the cross.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you. [SUP]16 [/SUP]You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. [SUP]17 [/SUP]These things I command you, that you love one another.

In the above verses 15 to 17 we have:
Election (verse 16)
Obedience by faith in God's Word (verse 17) – that’s your part by the way.
Fruit bearing (verse 16) – Christ's nature being formed in you by faith (Galatians 4v19).
God does this part if you will honour your part in faith in His Word. Abide in the vine and the fruit will come.

God bless you all

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