Questions and doubts

[NoNameMcgee]

And how did satan come about?
Some believe God created him.
If so, God wouldn't be all-good - which He is.

What about Dualism?
Do you believe satan has the same power God has?
No. And I agree.
So why can't God use His omnipotence to stop him?

It's a little complicated, I think.

some believe wrong


the bible is clear

satan was not always "satan"

he was created good

and was good

until he went by his own will instead of Gods

 

[LittleGirl]

It is o.k. to question and try and figure out why things are the way they are because that means you are thinking and trying to understand what is going on.

I'd like to answer what I have bolded in blue.

so he HAD to have chosen this painful world for some reason

God did not choose this painful world for us to live in. In six days he created a perfect world and placed Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden which was perfect in every way so perfect in fact that they didn't need clothes telling me that the temp was just right.

They were innocent to anything even remotely resembling sin and Gods light must have been their covering because they didn't know they were naked until they sinned and all of a sudden they are embarrassed by what they see trying to cover up their nakedness.

Because there was a Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the garden proves that we have free will to choose as if the tree was not there then all we would have had was to do things Gods way only and we never would have known that we didn't have a choice.

This world became the sinful violent world after the choice was made to see if God meant what he said by eating the fruit from that tree. They saw some of the effects immediately realizing that they were naked and all of a sudden embarrassed covering themselves with leaves and then trying to hide from God when he came looking for them.

God did not create this wicked world He created a perfect world our sins and wrong choices has made this the horrible place that it is now. This is our doing not God's.

He chose for us to suffer and sin, even though the knowledge that comes from contrast and duality could be delivered without us suffering and sinning.

Why does he leave us here to suffer and sin, and then be sent to hell for things he allowed for us to do, but people call it free will?

God did not choose for us to suffer and sin. He knew that WE would choose to suffer and sin a Big difference.... God also had a plan of Salvation in place before creating this world He made a plan for us ahead of time in case we failed which was the sacrifice of His Son Jesus who has paid the penalty of all our sins and the debt has been paid in full by Jesus sacrifice and death so we have a way out of this sinful world and all you have to do is accept it.

The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

As stated above we have chosen sin and our world had been going down hill ever since. God didn't create this or want our world to be this way. Because if we hadn't eaten from the tree we'd still be in the Garden of Eden the perfect place God put Adam and Eve in to start with.

God doesn't plan to leave us here forever to suffer and sin because He has already given us Jesus who has made a way out for us and someday soon Jesus will return and put an end to this world as we know it. The Bible tells us there will be a new heaven and a new earth for the former things will pass away. So God will recreate this world to be the perfect world that He intended it to be in the beginning.

Therefore, we are programs executing within a larger one, called the universe, all designed by God and running in the fashion which he intended.

At the current time we are not running according to how God intended this world to run. We are running under the program of sin and death, but Jesus has come and conquered sin and satan so we look to Jesus and submit ourselves to God and His plan and Jesus blood covers us when we repent and come to Him and accept the gift of salvation that He offers us. God no longer looks at our sins but He sees the perfect life of Jesus covering us and accepts us as if we had never sinned.

There is a way out and the way was made when Jesus died on the cross for you and for me. A test of our free will is will you accept this gift and submit and give your heart and life to God? Will you choose life or will you choose to continue in sin? This is the free will choice that we have to make everyday.

The Lord He is God... Choose you this day whom you will serve as for me and my house we will serve the Lord.

We each have free will to choose.

I like your last two paragraphs.

However things may be and however God wants it to be, one thing is sure...
There are two powers at work, good and evil.
Choose this day whom you will serve,,,
As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
Joshua 24:15

 

[Magenta]

Are you saying the O.P. is not Christian?
Are you saying you know the answer to any question I might come up with?

Are you saying you neither recognize nor understand Scripture?

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

also why wont God use His power to stop satan?
from OUR perspective
He has
He does
and He will


from an all mighty perspective

i would assume it is all already done
(my opinion...)

 

[LittleGirl]

some believe wrong


the bible is clear

satan was not always "satan"

he was created good

and was good

until he went by his own will instead of Gods

I'll stop after this...
If satan was created good, as was Adam and Eve,
WHAT made them not want good?
IOW, what was the evil in them?
Where did it come from?

 

[LittleGirl]

also why wont God use His power to stop satan?
from OUR perspective
He has
He does
and He will


from an all mighty perspective

i would assume it is all already done
(my opinion...)

How is it already done if suffering still exists?
If he roams the earth seeking whom he will devour...
1 Peter 5:8
(notice this was written AFTER Jesus ascended)

 

[Magenta]

I'll stop after this...
If satan was created good, as was Adam and Eve,
WHAT made them not want good?
IOW, what was the evil in them?
Where did it come from?

It is called the pride of life, the lust of the eyes, and the lust of the flesh.

For everything in the world--the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes,
and the pride of life--comes not from the Father but from the world.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

I'll stop after this...
If satan was created good, as was Adam and Eve,
WHAT made them not want good?
IOW, what was the evil in them?
Where did it come from?

i dont mind the questions young lady


it came from selfishness

temptation of flesh

pride

vanity

:/

 

[NoNameMcgee]

How is it already done if suffering still exists?
If he roams the earth seeking whom he will devour...
1 Peter 5:8
(notice this was written AFTER Jesus ascended)

because we are still here we can still experience suffering


but Jesus already provided a way to eternal bliss after this very short temporal life of suffering

(where we can still find peace and joy and comfort if we focus on whats spiritual and from above instead of the world around us we can see with our eyes.... faith on whats to come helps us be delivered from suffering here)

 

[trofimus]

I'll stop after this...
If satan was created good, as was Adam and Eve,
WHAT made them not want good?
IOW, what was the evil in them?
Where did it come from?

From not being perfect. What is created from nothingness, is imperfect.

Only God is perfect, eternal and all-knowing.

Every creation is limited in knowledge, wishes etc and makes mistakes or inclines to evil.

 

[Magenta]

In fact, it is that very pride of life that causes non-believers to reject God, and think they are too sophisticated, smart, logical, rational, intelligent etc etc to need what they may call an invisible friend for which they claim there is no evidence (though truthfully, rejecting evidence does not equate to there being no evidence [see Romans 1]). Fear of death is also named as the cause of slavery (to sin). Adam and Eve wanted to be like God. Would you not call that pride?

 

[shrume]

And how did satan come about?

God created him.

Eze 28:
13) Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

(some people do not believe that Isa 14 and Eze 28 are talking about Satan. I do.. )

Some believe God created him.
If so, God wouldn't be all-good - which He is.

God created both angels and humans with free will. Satan chose to try and usurp the throne of God.

What about Dualism?
Do you believe satan has the same power God has?

No.

No. And I agree.
So why can't God use His omnipotence to stop him?

God is righteous and just. He originally -gave- dominion of this world to Adam and Eve. It was -theirs- to do with as they pleased. When they sinned, that dominion was -transferred- to God's arch enemy, Satan, and Satan still has that dominion. Satan gaining control of the world was a legal result of the sin of Adam and Eve. The whole creation was disrupted when Satan gained control of things (Rom 8:19-22). While the control that Satan now has is certainly distasteful, it is legal. Because God is righteous and just, He cannot just say "whoops, I did not mean for that to happen. You cannot do that, Satan".

Satan still has access to heaven, where he continually accuses people before God (Rev 12:10). One day soon (I believe), Satan will be kicked out of heaven, and God will send Jesus Christ to earth to fight Armageddon and take back control of the world. Then is when the dominion of this world will be taken from Satan.

It's a little complicated, I think.

I believe that understanding that God is righteous and just, and that God created both angels and humans with genuine free will, helps make it a little less complicated.

People who believe that "God is in control" of everything that happens will not accept this explanation.

 

[Magenta]

The non-believer is faced with two options: accept that there is a prime cause Whom we know as God, and sincerely seek out the truth in regards to this Prime Cause, embodied in the Person of Jesus Christ, or believe that creation is an accident and that life holds no inherent meaning, value, or purpose. The OP has sadly chosen the latter

 

[maxwel]

BTW, the O.P. hasn't accepted any of the answers either....

1. Because someone does not accept an answer, that does not make the answer wrong.

People refuse to believe accurate information all the time.
Have you never told a child a stove was hot, and a bit later he's sticking his hand on the stove?
Adults do the same things, refusing to believe accurate information.


2. Regarding the "problem of evil & suffering", there are many simple ways to explain it... there is no problem in giving an answer that is both biblically sound and logically sound.

It's one of those problems that appears to be a dilemma, but it's really no dilemma at all.
People just don't like the answers.


3. The REAL PROBLEM with the PROBLEM is twofold:
A. People don't LIKE the answers.
B. People don't really WANT an answer... they just want some kind of excuse for being angry at God.

It's really as simple as that.
There are simple answers which are biblically sound and logically sound... and people don't like them.


4. So WHY don't people LIKE or WANT a BIBLICALLY and LOGICALLY SOUND answer?
It is because people don't have a LOGICALLY SOUND ISSUE... they have an EMOTIONAL ISSUE.

It is an emotional issue for people.
They are upset and angry about things, and because it's an emotional issue for them, they're aren't going to accept any rational answer.

Haven't we all dealt with this, where a person is emotionally upset, and therefore won't listen to reason?
Haven't we all experienced this?
Is this a mystery?

Humans get upset about something, and they stop listening to reason.
It's as simple as that.

We should be compassionate when people are hurting and upset...
but their "emotional upset" doesn't magically make their arguments rational.

 

[beta]

Can someone explain to me the reason why this world is so full of suffering? There is so much pain, horror, and death in this life. God knew what it would be like yet put us here anyway. Innocents suffer and die at the hands of evil people, but God doesn't prevent it. People suffer terrible diseases. People and animals are born deformed. People are born mentally handicapped. Even if it's sin that caused these things to come into this world, God knew it would happen and let us do it anyway. He built the system in which sin would usher these things in, and built these things, as well.

Anything God wished to teach us through the pain and horror of this world could have been taught any other way he could fathom. Yet, he chose this. This horrible, violent world, where everything withers and dies around us, including us and our loved ones. Any choice of ours that brought this to be is ultimately God's responsibility for giving us the capability to sin and the space to do it in. Why would he put us here to suffer and die in agony when he could have made it any other way? I just can't understand it. The designer of the system bears responsibility for everything that occurs within it, which means all the sinful choices are God's fault.

God designed us and he designed the system. We have no ability at all to operate outside of the bounds he placed upon us. We really are like machines, designed to function a certain way, within certain limits. Do we blame a machine when it doesn't do something properly, or do we blame the designer? It would be foolish to blame the machine, as it's foolish to blame us. The responsibility lies with the designer, or in this case, with God. It's God's fault that we sin and that we suffer because we are HIS creations operating within HIS system. We are HIS flawed creations, yet he punishes us when we screw up!? How is that right or just!!? And the most important question is WHY?? WHY did he put us here, in this state, flawed and taken to sin, only to be punished for that which is not our fault?

Friend...you have things kinda back to front...everything is GOD's fault ? you can't be serious !

Didn't He tell Adam what to do ? doesn't He tell US what to to ? Do people obey and follow Him ?
What do you mean 'He put us here in this dreadful state ?'
Didn't you read in Gen 1 that everything He made (for man) was very good ! The 'state we are in is ALL our own doing - being disobedient to Him !!! now you want to blame HIM ? Shame on you !

 

[LittleGirl]

i dont mind the questions young lady


it came from selfishness

temptation of flesh

pride

vanity

:/

Don't you realize that vanity, selfishness and temptation of the flesh come from the sin nature? They're the "bad" in us.
Again, where did the bad in us come from?
Why did Adam and Eve eat the fruit if the sin nature did not exist yet in them?

 

[LittleGirl]

1. Because someone does not accept an answer, that does not make the answer wrong.

People refuse to believe accurate information all the time.
Have you never told a child a stove was hot, and a bit later he's sticking his hand on the stove?
Adults do the same things, refusing to believe accurate information.


2. Regarding the "problem of evil & suffering", there are many simple ways to explain it... there is no problem in giving an answer that is both biblically sound and logically sound.

It's one of those problems that appears to be a dilemma, but it's really no dilemma at all.
People just don't like the answers.


3. The REAL PROBLEM with the PROBLEM is twofold:
A. People don't LIKE the answers.
B. People don't really WANT an answer... they just want some kind of excuse for being angry at God.

It's really as simple as that.
There are simple answers which are biblically sound and logically sound... and people don't like them.


4. So WHY don't people LIKE or WANT a BIBLICALLY and LOGICALLY SOUND answer?
It is because people don't have a LOGICALLY SOUND ISSUE... they have an EMOTIONAL ISSUE.

It is an emotional issue for people.
They are upset and angry about things, and because it's an emotional issue for them, they're aren't going to accept any rational answer.

Haven't we all dealt with this, where a person is emotionally upset, and therefore won't listen to reason?
Haven't we all experienced this?
Is this a mystery?

Humans get upset about something, and they stop listening to reason.
It's as simple as that.

We should be compassionate when people are hurting and upset...
but their "emotional upset" doesn't magically make their arguments rational.

All very nice.
But no answer.

 

[LittleGirl]

because we are still here we can still experience suffering


but Jesus already provided a way to eternal bliss after this very short temporal life of suffering

(where we can still find peace and joy and comfort if we focus on whats spiritual and from above instead of the world around us we can see with our eyes.... faith on whats to come helps us be delivered from suffering here)

Amen to that.

 

[LittleGirl]

God created him.

Eze 28:
13) Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

(some people do not believe that Isa 14 and Eze 28 are talking about Satan. I do.. )


God created both angels and humans with free will. Satan chose to try and usurp the throne of God.


No.


God is righteous and just. He originally -gave- dominion of this world to Adam and Eve. It was -theirs- to do with as they pleased. When they sinned, that dominion was -transferred- to God's arch enemy, Satan, and Satan still has that dominion. Satan gaining control of the world was a legal result of the sin of Adam and Eve. The whole creation was disrupted when Satan gained control of things (Rom 8:19-22). While the control that Satan now has is certainly distasteful, it is legal. Because God is righteous and just, He cannot just say "whoops, I did not mean for that to happen. You cannot do that, Satan".

Satan still has access to heaven, where he continually accuses people before God (Rev 12:10). One day soon (I believe), Satan will be kicked out of heaven, and God will send Jesus Christ to earth to fight Armageddon and take back control of the world. Then is when the dominion of this world will be taken from Satan.


I believe that understanding that God is righteous and just, and that God created both angels and humans with genuine free will, helps make it a little less complicated.

People who believe that "God is in control" of everything that happens will not accept this explanation.

Well, actually no explanation is acceptable.

You said you believe God created satan.
So you believe God is not all-good. But the N.T. says that He is.

John 1:5 God is light and in Him there is no darkness. (darkness represents evil)
1 John 4:8 God is love. In love there dwells no hatred or darkness.

So, how to reconcile?