Do we Believe Jesus and/or Obey Jesus?

[Locutus]

Yes, but the Lord Jesus (before the cross) didn't talk about salvation by grace, did He?

Of course he did, he preached according to the prophets:

1 Peter 1:10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries

1 Pet 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Peter and Paul all preached the same gospel of the kingdom as Jesus and the grace that went with it:

Mat 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

 

[BillG]

We obey what we believe to be true. If I tell my wife that I didn't cheat on her, and then she slaps the heck out of me, she obviously didn't believe me. Jesus was our example, if we refuse to try and follow him, do we really believe? No reaction to what we claim to believe leaves our belief void. Ignoring the example of our Savior is a slap in the face to his righteousness. Obedience matters.. jmo

Do you think there is a difference between refusing to follow him and not having the capacity to follow him?

 

[Blain]

But did the Lord Jesus himself say anything about salvation by grace?

He may not have said anything about grace but he showed it and actions often times speak louder than words. As for you issue with you Lawyer I do not think you were in the wrong.

 

[preacher4truth]

But did the Lord Jesus himself say anything about salvation by grace?

Yes. Exodus 33:19.

 

[dcontroversal]

More law keeping drivel for hey......LOOK...NO MAN KEEPS THE LAW and NO MAN CAN PRODUCE FRUIT UNLESS ALREADY IN THE VINE.....IT IS faith and faith alone that saves and justifies a man before GOD.....once a man has been born from above ETERNALLY BY FAITH they can then begin to produce fruit after growth and maturity........

 

[BillG]

But did the Lord Jesus himself say anything about salvation by grace?

I could be wrong, but given that Jesus is the word who was there in the beginning then does the following verses help.

I think it's referring to salvation

Isaiah 55:1-3
Chapter 55
An Invitation to Abundant Life
1 “Ho! Everyone who thirsts,
Come to the waters;
And you who have no money,
Come, buy and eat.
Yes, come, buy wine and milk
Without money and without price.
2 Why do you spend money for what is not bread,
And your wages for what does not satisfy?
Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good,
And let your soul delight itself in abundance.
3 Incline your ear, and come to Me.
Hear, and your soul shall live;
And I will make an everlasting covenant with you—
The sure mercies of David.

 

[Blain]

-This isn't a works vs grace issue. Ok lets look at it this way, if we claim we Christians and we claim to follow God the best we can but we are lazy and barely ever speak to him then are we really what we claim to be? If I say that I believe in miracles but when any person ever claims to have received one I just laugh and mock do I really believe what I say I believe?

It's the same thing as the fruits of the spirit, if we have the holy spirit then his fruits will naturally form in us if he isn't then they will not. If we believe in Jesus but we refuse to obey him and we just do as we please and carry one as we always have in life I would not believe such a person really believes in him because we are born again we are made new. True we are still human and flawed and we do not always do as we should I can attest this about myself but we obey not because we have to but because we want to.

Anyone who respects him, who cares about him, who wants to be like him and to honor him naturally strives to obey that is why the holy spirit gives conviction because if we didn't care about obeying him I doubt the holy spirit would bother convicting us and we wouldn't feel guilty.

Believe me I am by far not the most obedient child I honestly don't understand myself I don't get why I do the things I do even when I try to tell myself not to I fall and stumble so much that I honestly sometimes am disgusted with myself especially when my depression acts up yet I still strive to do what he says and teaches not because I have to not because I think it will get me to heaven but because I want to. I want to make him proud I want to do my best for him even though I fail so miserably and it's a constant war of falling down over and over and over again but continuing to get back up never backing down never giving up because this isn't some hobby for me I am not ok with simply being the average believer I am not going to take it easy and do as I please.

I will obey him the best I can and I will follow his teachings with all my heart and even though I know I myself am lacking he is not, as I have said many times before there is a vast difference between a Christian by heart and a Christian by title.

 

[Dan58]

Do you think there is a difference between refusing to follow him and not having the capacity to follow him?

I suppose a believer who refuses to follow is a hypocrite, and a believer who doesn't have the capacity to faithfully follow his every step is a sinner. But I imagine everyone has the capacity to some degree; "For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light" (Matthew 11:30). His Grace gives whosoever believes the capacity. But I believe grace and faith go hand-in-hand, so outright refusal to be a follower will matter come judgement day. "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap" (Galatians 6:7)

 

[BillG]

Yes, but the Lord Jesus (before the cross) didn't talk about salvation by grace, did He?

I don't think we will find Jesus saying "Salvation by grace"

What we do find is Jesus saying Salvation by faith.
John 6:29


29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

John 16:8-9
8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me;

So when we repent of the sun of unbelief then we are saved by faith.

This is as a result of the grace of God.

It is the grace of God alone that saves.

Jesus did not have to say by salvation but grace.
As I said I think it's salvation by faith as a result of grace.

 

[Marcelo]

But did the Lord Jesus himself say anything about salvation by grace?

It was nice to learn from you guys that there are prophecies about grace in the O.T., but Bible teachers in general say that Jesus never talked about salvation by grace during His stay on earth.

 

[BillG]

I suppose a believer who refuses to follow is a hypocrite, and a believer who doesn't have the capacity to faithfully follow his every step is a sinner. But I imagine everyone has the capacity to some degree; "For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light" (Matthew 11:30). His Grace gives whosoever believes the capacity. But I believe grace and faith go hand-in-hand, so outright refusal to be a follower will matter come judgement day. "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap" (Galatians 6:7)

Thanks for answering.

 

[justsomeone123]

Can we just believe in Yahshua/Jesus and not obey Him and enter the Kingdom of YHWH?

or

Should we believe and obey Yahshua/Jesus to enter the kingdom of YHWH?

I say believing and obeying Yahshua/Jesus is the narrow path to the kingdom.

John/Yahanan 14:6, "Yahshua proclaimed to him: I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes to the Father, except through Me."

John/Yahanan 10:16, "And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. So there will be one flock, one Shepherd (4166 –poimén)."

Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My teachings will not pass away.”

John/Yahanan 5:46-47, "For had you believed Mosheh, you would have believed Me, for he wrote about Me*. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"

*Mosheh wrote:

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, "I (YHWH) will raise up for them a Prophet (Yahshua/Jesus) like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it"

"listen" is word #8085 - שָׁמַעshama` {shaw-mah'}

Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)

Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey

John 14:23-24, "יהושע answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”

Luke 6:46-9, “But why do you call Me ‘Master, Master,’ and do not do what I say? “Everyone who is coming to Me, and is hearing My words and is doing them, I shall show you whom he is like: He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on the rock. And when a flood came, the stream burst against that house, but was unable to shake it, for it was founded on the rock. But the one hearing and not doing, is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream burst, and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.”

new testament states over and over again we must obey him to enter heaven but never states you must be perfect to enter heaven then again he says for us to be perfect like our father in heaven.....obey him and never give up trying to be perfect even though you know your not......believing in him does mean obeying him vise versa

 

[justsomeone123]

in other words if you don't obey him you never believed in him

 

[BillG]

It was nice to learn from you guys that there are prophecies about grace in the O.T., but Bible teachers in general say that Jesus never talked about salvation by grace during His stay on earth.

The OT, is full of golden nuggets. The grace of God can be surely found, right from the time Adam sinned.

Genesis 3:8-9


8 And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden.
9 Then the Lord God called to Adam and said to him, “Where are you?”


The first act of grace.

Good knew what happened. Yet he called out "My kids where are you?
Genesis 3:21


21 Also for Adam and his wife the Lord God made tunics of skin, and clothed them.

Second act of grace he clothes for them.

Then he declares

Genesis 3:15
15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

This references what happened on the cross.

Jesus sramoec on his head on the cruise and was fulfilled in Christ’s death, resurrection, and final victory over Satan.

Grace shown, grace revealed and grace accomplished.

John 3:16-18
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[Locutus]

It was nice to learn from you guys that there are prophecies about grace in the O.T., but Bible teachers in general say that Jesus never talked about salvation by grace during His stay on earth.

So what did he teach - a gospel of salvation by works?

 

[justsomeone123]

The OT, is full of golden nuggets. The grace of God can be surely found, right from the time Adam sinned.

Genesis 3:8-9


8 And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden.
9 Then the Lord God called to Adam and said to him, “Where are you?”


The first act of grace.

Good knew what happened. Yet he called out "My kids where are you?
Genesis 3:21


21 Also for Adam and his wife the Lord God made tunics of skin, and clothed them.

Second act of grace he clothes for them.

Then he declares

Genesis 3:15
15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

This references what happened on the cross.

Jesus sramoec on his head on the cruise and was fulfilled in Christ’s death, resurrection, and final victory over Satan.

Grace shown, grace revealed and grace accomplished.

John 3:16-18
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

key words whoever believes

 

[BillG]

in other words if you don't obey him you never believed in him

The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.

God knows our hearts. He loves a heart that seeks after him and acknowledges that they need him and want to be like him.

 

[Marcelo]

So what did he teach - a gospel of salvation by works?

Some teachers say -- and I think they may be right -- that the Lord Jesus preached salvation through the Law, which means fulfilling it 100%.

 

[posthuman]

Do you think there is a difference between refusing to follow him and not having the capacity to follow him?

isn't believing Him understanding that i don't have the capacity to walk as He walked - believing that it must be He who walks in me?

the consistent message i see in the NT scripture is that by belief, we are clean and righteous, His righteousness being imputed to us as a gift because of faith -- therefore walk righteously because you are righteous. not 'walk righteously in order to be righteous' because my own effort is never going to meet the standard: i need Him every hour

for example Paul telling the Corinthians to 'purge out the old leaven so that you may be unleavened as you really are'

produce fruit in keeping with reality; am i reading scripture correctly?
obey because He has made you His son, not because you are a slave under the threat of a whip or a gallows?

 

[Locutus]

Some teachers say -- and I think they may be right -- that the Lord Jesus preached salvation through the Law, which means fulfilling it 100%.

Then why did he have to die for us if salvation is by keeping the Law?