Do we Believe Jesus and/or Obey Jesus?
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What law(s) and to whom?
Who fulfilled the law?
To me if Jesus preached we could we could keep 100% of the law then he would have said so and therefore would not have to die on the cross.
He would have said of works "Ok kids this is how it works, now go keep it 100%"
But he didn't he said
John 6:28-35
28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
30 Therefore they said to Him, “What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’ ”
32 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.”
35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
Who fulfilled the law?
To me if Jesus preached we could we could keep 100% of the law then he would have said so and therefore would not have to die on the cross.
He would have said of works "Ok kids this is how it works, now go keep it 100%"
But he didn't he said
John 6:28-35
28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
30 Therefore they said to Him, “What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’ ”
32 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.”
35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
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What Bible teachers say that? John 3, John 4 and John 6 are three examples of Jesus talking about grace. I can give many more i am sure, but there are three there
John 3. Whoever believes will never perish
John 4 Believe in me And I will give you a fountain of living water springing forth to eternal life
John 6, Food which endures forever, which one can eat and not die, Live forever, Never hunger or thirst, has eternal life, will never be lost, and will be ressurected by him, vs delivered to him for judgment.
If these are not grace, I do not know what is.
John 3. Whoever believes will never perish
John 4 Believe in me And I will give you a fountain of living water springing forth to eternal life
John 6, Food which endures forever, which one can eat and not die, Live forever, Never hunger or thirst, has eternal life, will never be lost, and will be ressurected by him, vs delivered to him for judgment.
If these are not grace, I do not know what is.
John 3:16New International Version (NIV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
This is not the Lord Jesus speaking.
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John 6:37-39New International Version (NIV)
[SUP]37 [/SUP]All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. [SUP]38 [/SUP]For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. [SUP]39 [/SUP]And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
This is the Lord Jesus; He is talking about salvation, but doesn’t say it would be by grace.
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John 1:17New International Version (NIV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
This is not the Lord Jesus speaking.
Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
John quotes Zechariah here:
John 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
John 19:37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.
Grace was part of Jesus ministry.
John quotes Zechariah here:
John 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
John 19:37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.
Grace was part of Jesus ministry.
The difference between the law and grace is that you no longer had to perform under the law to be saved. All you had to do was believe on the Son of God,and that he was crucified on the cross, taking away the sins of all that believed. Then receive his Holy Spirit which caused the believer to walk in righteousness . With the Holy Spirit that dwells in us,the law is written on our hearts because it is the Holy Spirit that wrote the law.
Of course John had the Holy Spirit, but he wrote that version of the Gospel some decades after the resurrection of the Lord, when all Jesus' followers already knew that salvation was by grace.
What I've been saying is that the incarnate Jesus never talked about salvation by grace. I'm not 100% sure about that, but I really don't remember having seen in the gospels any word from the Lord's mouth about that.
What I've been saying is that the incarnate Jesus never talked about salvation by grace. I'm not 100% sure about that, but I really don't remember having seen in the gospels any word from the Lord's mouth about that.
Yes I agree with you.
The reason I asked the question was because I wanted people to think.
Mainly those who who say "You must obey"
On another thread that was said.
So I shared a bit about my incapacity to forgive my sexual abuser (which after time I did)
Someone replied along the lines of "Not wishing to play down what you went through but people have suffered worse than you yet were still obedient"
Yes people have suffered more than I have but the point I was trying to make was that we have stuff in our lives that cause us not to obedient, in this case unforgivness.
Corrie ten boom, amazing lady had to go through this process.
No capacity to forgive and was unwilling to. Therefore disobedient. Yet God worked and she forgave.
Just like God she did with me, it took 30 years.
But by inference I Felt I was told, disobedient period, question your salvation.
The reason I asked the question was because I wanted people to think.
Mainly those who who say "You must obey"
On another thread that was said.
So I shared a bit about my incapacity to forgive my sexual abuser (which after time I did)
Someone replied along the lines of "Not wishing to play down what you went through but people have suffered worse than you yet were still obedient"
Yes people have suffered more than I have but the point I was trying to make was that we have stuff in our lives that cause us not to obedient, in this case unforgivness.
Corrie ten boom, amazing lady had to go through this process.
No capacity to forgive and was unwilling to. Therefore disobedient. Yet God worked and she forgave.
Just like God she did with me, it took 30 years.
But by inference I Felt I was told, disobedient period, question your salvation.
1 Pet 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1 Pet 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
It was the Spirit of Christ in Zechariah that spoke of the grace that was to be poured out.
It was the prophets that spoke of all things associated with Christ's ministry:
Luke 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Luke 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Without the cross there was no entering into His glory and no grace associated with it - to which all the apostles who wrote including Paul confirmed - this is Christianity 101.
1 Pet 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
It was the Spirit of Christ in Zechariah that spoke of the grace that was to be poured out.
It was the prophets that spoke of all things associated with Christ's ministry:
Luke 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Luke 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Without the cross there was no entering into His glory and no grace associated with it - to which all the apostles who wrote including Paul confirmed - this is Christianity 101.
He was preaching to Jews - they knew of grace through the prophets - they had the scriptures that taught salvation was by faith.
The apostles and Paul expounded on the grace and salvation by faith - the stumblingstone was also prophesied:
Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
How many times did Jesus speak of the importance of faith?
The apostles and Paul expounded on the grace and salvation by faith - the stumblingstone was also prophesied:
Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
How many times did Jesus speak of the importance of faith?
Perfect obedience, What is it?I ask because often I hear it said that we can not perfectly obey.
What is perfect obedience?
If you obey every time God gives direction then is that not perfect obedience? what more could be expected.
If by this people are suggesting that we can not obey every time God gives direction then why?
If its our nature has that not been put to death daily in Christ?
Is God not able to do what He has promised?
Indeed He is able. When we base an impossibility on our self rather than have faith in His strength then that is legalism. Because its based on humanity and what we can and can't do. The Gospel is not concerned with our weakness except only that Gods strength is manifest in it.
We can indeed obey every time as long as every time we trust in Him and don't look to our weakness. If you measure that last statement by your experience not being in line with it. then you need to come to Faith still.
Thus perfect obedience is more than possible with God. But without faith it is not possible.
What is perfect obedience?
If you obey every time God gives direction then is that not perfect obedience? what more could be expected.
If by this people are suggesting that we can not obey every time God gives direction then why?
If its our nature has that not been put to death daily in Christ?
Is God not able to do what He has promised?
Indeed He is able. When we base an impossibility on our self rather than have faith in His strength then that is legalism. Because its based on humanity and what we can and can't do. The Gospel is not concerned with our weakness except only that Gods strength is manifest in it.
We can indeed obey every time as long as every time we trust in Him and don't look to our weakness. If you measure that last statement by your experience not being in line with it. then you need to come to Faith still.
Thus perfect obedience is more than possible with God. But without faith it is not possible.