Pentecostal/charismatic Discussion/light debate thread

[DJ2]

Matthew 13: 53When Jesus had finished these parables, He departed from there. 54He came to His hometown and began teaching them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished, and said, “Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers? 55“Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?56“And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this man get all these things?” 57And they took offense at Him. But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and in his own household.” 58And He did not do many miracles there because of their unbelief.
It's not fair to ask for a demonstration of a spiritual gift while contributing unbelief to purposely hinder it.

What is being asked for, is the evidence that should be apparent if these claim were true. If I claim to be a star NBA player you would expect to see a tall athletic person not a midget. This is not hard to understand except for those who wish to live in ignorance.

Again, we are not looking for a demonstration like Thomas. We are simply pointing out the lack of any evidence of what has already been claimed.

 

[Socreta93]

What I don't like is people simply assuming every Pentecostal church preaches the prosperity gospel. It's not true, I go to a Hispanic AG Pentecostal church and we are totally against the prosperity gospel. We believe our riches will be in heaven and that should be our main goal.

 

[Nehemiah6]

What I don't like is people simply assuming every Pentecostal church preaches the prosperity gospel. It's not true, I go to a Hispanic AG Pentecostal church and we are totally against the prosperity gospel. We believe our riches will be in heaven and that should be our main goal.

Right. The prosperity gospel preachers and their followers are what could be termed "the lunatic fringe" of evangelical Christians. But what the AG Pentecostals failed to do is rebuke and reject the Charismatic Movement, which brought in a mixed multitude of people all claiming to speak in tongues yet believing all kinds of doctrines.

 

[Socreta93]

Right. The prosperity gospel preachers and their followers are what could be termed "the lunatic fringe" of evangelical Christians. But what the AG Pentecostals failed to do is rebuke and reject the Charismatic Movement, which brought in a mixed multitude of people all claiming to speak in tongues yet believing all kinds of doctrines.

When it comes to my church, speaking in tongues is very common, you see multiple of people doing it. However we follow strict doctrine. Go to my church and most people are crazy, on fire, whatever you may call it. If you never been to one, you might get taken back by it. But anyway we are careful in believing any form of doctrine. My pastor always says, every thing we should believe comes from the bible.

 

[KelbyofGod]

Wow! I'm very pleasantly surprised that both the first and last page of comments on this thread seem to be in line with the OP's request for a lighter/less intense discussion. It is refreshing. Well done!

 

[Beez]

First, one of the writers here a post asking writers to be respectful about our writing about the H Spirit. Wow, I appreciated that! (Wish I could find the post, because admittedly, this is a pet peeve of mine.) Recognizing that some may not think as I do, for example some (all?) from the UPC, I just strongly suggest that He be recognized as He: He is not an “it.” Thank you to the lady who brought this up.

I certainly have the H Spirit in my life, working in my life, because I have been saved by our sovereign G-D through His gift of faith and His grace. But I do not spontaneously speak in languages. However, I’ve had times in which I felt Him very near then realized that the words coming from my mouth were far beyond both my knowledge and education. The words were, however, in my native tongue, English. . . . And I’ve often known when what I said/wrote were displeasing to Him.

However, I appreciated the following very much. Why this? I believe what MarcR wrote, even though #2 goes beyond (more honestly, against) what I have thought over the last couple decades, plus. But I believe Marc.:

I don't see anything in scripture that suggests that anyone other than the Holy Spirit Himself should pray in unknown tongues.

I knowthat Ro 8:27 suggests that the Holy Spirit intercedes for us in unknown tongues.

I have had 2 experiences that have shaped the way I think about tongues:

1) Many years ago my wife and I went with a friend to a Pentecostal church for an eventthey were having.
Thingsseemed to be done in biblical order with one speaking in an unknown tongue and another interpreting. Something about it didn't seem right so I recited Psalm 96 in Hebrew. The interpretation had no resemblance to Psalm 96.

2) In1972 I was with a group of people from my church witnessing on the streets inthe infamous North Beach district of San Francisco. At the time I had a rudimentary knowledge of French (self taught) and was beginning to learn ASL. We met a group of 5 deaf people 3 of whom were from France and 2 were American.I found myself signing in French and reverse interpreting back to speech at conversational speed far beyond my ability in either French or ASL. I believe that was indeed the gift of tongues.

I led 2deaf Frenchmen to Jesus.

Why do I believe this? Because this is more like I understandthe H Spirit works. He would not submit Himself to being someone’s toy, makingsomeone act foolishly, etc. He is Almighty, Sovereign G-D!!

One could say that the only thingcommon to both Pentecostalism and Charismatism is speaking in"tongues" (

glossolalia, not glossais). Buteven the doctrine there would vary, since there are Charismatic Catholics andothers who would have nothing else in common with Pentecostals. As to WOF, thatwould be and offshoot of either, since they also hold to some hereticalteachings.

Nehemiah, can you disclose what the difference is between glossolalia and glossais? I thought they were the same things. Thank you!

. . . Is your response to that"well, you just didn't have enough faith... you didn't wait long enough...you didn't

try hard enough..." ?

. . . Ithink that Jesus meant that we would be doing more evangelizing, bringing morepeople to him, when he said that... NOT that we would be doing greater"signs and wonders"...

I do notin any way want to limit the Spirit... God can do whatever He wants to do. I amready and willing.... eager to see and believe in any miracle He works in us...

What Isee in most of the tongues, miracles, snake handling, etc, is silliness andfakery. Deliberate fakery, in many instances.

THIS iswhat we should all be on the lookout for... the fakers.... because they makeALL Christians look silly, and they trivialize the gospel message.

[In another of his posts . . . .]

Most of what you mentionthere would be fruits of the Spirit... not miraculous "signs" thatmany people insist we must exhibit.

I believe the gifts of the Spirit that youmentioned will bring many, many more people to Jesus than someone"speaking in tongues".

I really appreciate this and other posts by Hornetguy.

 

[stillness]

Praying in the Spirit (in unknown tongues), brings us in agreement with God past our understanding: the first thing I resort to in times of stress, uncertainty and temptations, may be because temptations are fought in our understanding and getting past our understanding helps to walk by faith. It's written that praying in the Spirit builds us up in Faith. "Lean not on your understanding but trust in the Lord." Faith is both a gift and fruit of the Spirit. One gift we all receive, "It's given to every man to have a measure of Faith." This may not be evident in every man: unless we use what we have, we lose what we have. Have you heard the man who misplaced his Faith and later said to his neighbour: I found the Lord, the neighbour: I did not know He was lost.

 

[Beez]

. . . "If anyone claims they are something when they are not, they deceive themselves." (Galatians 6:3)

Yes!!

Remembering one of the incidents of fakery I observed, one @ 60-year-old lady danced across the front of the church, shouting and grinning, as she spoke, again and again, a Gaelic word that means foolishness or nonsense. It was my introduction to sure tongues-fakery.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Nehemiah, can you disclose what the difference is between glossolalia and glossais? I thought they were the same things. Thank you!

In the Greek New Testament two words are used for languages -- glossa and dialektos (from which we get "dialect"). The KJV translated them as either "languages" or "tongues" (archaic for languages).

Mark 16:17 -- glossais
Acts 2:3,4,6,8,11 glossais, dialektos
1 Cor 12:10 etc. glossa
1 Cor 14:2 etc. glossa

But modern tongues are glossolalia since that represents babbling (glossa = language + laleo = prattling or making a sound = ecstatic utterances). However, every time the word tongue(s) occurs in the NT it is glossa (glossais) or dialektos.

Modern tongues speakers admit that they are not really speaking in genuine human languages, hence the term "prayer language" has been invented. Also Pentecostal doctrine maintains that "the baptism IN the Holy Spirit" is manifested by speaking in tongues. However Scripture does not have such a designation. Christians are either baptized WITH the Holy Spirit (by Christ) or baptized BY the Holy Spirit (into the Body of Christ). And since Scripture makes it clear that not all with speak with tongues, but all will be baptized WITH and BY the holy Spirit, it should be clear that this is not based upon Scripture.

 

[Beez]

In the Greek New Testament two words are used for languages -- glossa and dialektos (from which we get "dialect"). The KJV translated them as either "languages" or "tongues" (archaic for languages).

Mark 16:17 -- glossais
Acts 2:3,4,6,8,11 glossais, dialektos
1 Cor 12:10 etc. glossa
1 Cor 14:2 etc. glossa

But modern tongues are glossolalia since that represents babbling (glossa = language + laleo = prattling or making a sound = ecstatic utterances). However, every time the word tongue(s) occurs in the NT it is glossa (glossais) or dialektos.

Modern tongues speakers admit that they are not really speaking in genuine human languages, hence the term "prayer language" has been invented. Also Pentecostal doctrine maintains that "the baptism IN the Holy Spirit" is manifested by speaking in tongues. However Scripture does not have such a designation. Christians are either baptized WITH the Holy Spirit (by Christ) or baptized BY the Holy Spirit (into the Body of Christ). And since Scripture makes it clear that not all with speak with tongues, but all will be baptized WITH and BY the holy Spirit, it should be clear that this is not based upon Scripture.

Thank you, Nehemiah6. I had not thought this through, or I would have known the difference. Now, I really feel stupid. Unnnhhhh. Another time I've wished I could erase a post!

 

[JB2018]

Every believer should pray in tongues as God gives you the utterance. Jude 1:20 says " But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the holy spirit." Many people believe you shouldn't pray in tongues or that "tongues" aren't for today. I beg to differ, we should pray in the tongues and its for today. Also, it's important not to so focused on tongues that you miss the point. In fact, speaking in tongues is evidence that you have his spirit. And, be careful because those who " speak in tongues" are sometimes not of God.

 

[Waggles]

The main thing I have against pentecostal/charismatic movement is the twisted order of priorities. Their main goals are mostly of the flesh (success, health, wealth, power), against the biblical principles and against the Holy Spirit.

That is not Pentecost.
More likely Word of Faith evangelical mega-Church prosperity faith and doctrine.

True Pentecostalism is about upholding a disciple's testimony both to the gospel
and to our Lord.
Walking in the Spirit. Being led by the Spirit.
Displaying in conversation and life the fruit of the Spirit.
Brotherly kindness.
Speaking the scriptures.
Praying in tongues.

 

[Splagna]

Right. The prosperity gospel preachers and their followers are what could be termed "the lunatic fringe" of evangelical Christians. But what the AG Pentecostals failed to do is rebuke and reject the Charismatic Movement, which brought in a mixed multitude of people all claiming to speak in tongues yet believing all kinds of doctrines.

Not true. The AG did rebuke prosperity gospel preachers. See post #24 for the link. I was saved in an AG church and as a young believer remember the teaching against these preachers. As I recall several prosperity teachers lost their credentials with the AG over this.

I agree Charismatics can get pretty flaky but based on my experience, not all Charismatics have strayed far from Pentecostal distinctives. One must be careful suggesting that there are flaky Charismatics, therefore, all Charismatics are flaky.

 

[shittim]

It stands to reason if it is of G-d the adversary will attempt to attack it , hence, it doesn't surprise me when charismatic churches seem to go astray. His ways are not our ways.

 

[Socreta93]

Like I said earlier, I go to an AG Pentecostal church and we preach against the prosperity bible. We also stay cautious of the teachings of megs churches for this very reason.

 

[garee]

Every believer should pray in tongues as God gives you the utterance. Jude 1:20 says " But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the holy spirit." Many people believe you shouldn't pray in tongues or that "tongues" aren't for today. I beg to differ, we should pray in the tongues and its for today. Also, it's important not to so focused on tongues that you miss the point. In fact, speaking in tongues is evidence that you have his spirit. And, be careful because those who " speak in tongues" are sometimes not of God.

We pray with understanding. God knows the thoughts of our hearts and understands the intent his word does not return void.
It does one of two things, either it as it is written gives us the desires of our heart or he turns away from it.

Tongues is a sign of those who rebel against prophecy .That law of interpretation is not subject to change or turn upside down .It applies to the whole bible.

1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Clearly it does not say tongues is a sign to those who do believe the word of God’s prophecy,found in his book of prophecy .Seeking after things seen destroys the gospel and does not add to it.

For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 1Co 1:22

Joh 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see "signs and wonders", ye will not believe.........(No faith coming from God.)

There is no good news connected to seeking after that seen as a sign. The Holy Spirit attributes that to a evil generation the generation of Adam, natural unconverted man. They must walk by sight as their source of no faith, coming from God..

Prophecy for those who believe God. Its an evil generation that seeks after as sign .Signs are used for observation not to seek after in a hope they provide an outward evidence a person has become born again.

He who lives in the believer witnesses daily to our born again spirits by unseen work of His faith that works in us to both will and do His good pleasure.

To repeat what the apostate Jews performed by requiring as sign before they believe is to follow another gospel another Christ. We walk by faith (the unseen ) not by sight as that seen . For who hopes for what they think they already have and call it a witness? All saints die not receiving the end of their faith a new incorruptible body.

 

[Lafftur]

No you misunderstand. I don't think that either. When i say tongues i mean praying in tongues. This is seperate from the gift of tongues which is a message from God needing interpretation.

I remember an experience I had - it was a home group gathering and a man was playing the keyboards and singing in tongues - it was a spontaneous melody. As he was singing, I could hear his voice in tongues with my natural ears, yet, in my head I could hear his voice in english, which is my native language.

I became completely dumbfounded - too in awe to speak because of what I was hearing in my head which was incredible poetic words of intimate worship. Such as........."There is none like You.......the life giving fragrance of Your love sustains my being and awakens my heart to the kisses of Your eternal love........"

I cannot even describe the depths of what I heard in my head...... I was speechless.

I, now know that it was the gift of interpretation of tongues that the Holy Spirit was operating in me, as He wills.

I understand that some may try to fake it till they make it, but, when the Holy Spirit truly shows up and starts operating in the midst - it's very powerful and life changing.

 

[Socreta93]

I remember an experience I had - it was a home group gathering and a man was playing the keyboards and singing in tongues - it was a spontaneous melody. As he was singing, I could hear his voice in tongues with my natural ears, yet, in my head I could hear his voice in english, which is my native language.

I became completely dumbfounded - too in awe to speak because of what I was hearing in my head which was incredible poetic words of intimate worship. Such as........."There is none like You.......the life giving fragrance of Your love sustains my being and awakens my heart to the kisses of Your eternal love........"

I cannot even describe the depths of what I heard in my head...... I was speechless.

I, now know that it was the gift of interpretation of tongues that the Holy Spirit was operating in me, as He wills.

I understand that some may try to fake it till they make it, but, when the Holy Spirit truly shows up and starts operating in the midst - it's very powerful and life changing.

One thing I say is that my denomination is very lax on tongues and aren't all to strict. Meaning speak in tongues, even on the mic, all you want and no one will complain. However I've heard several times this one lady who is a singer, sing a song, then when filled with he spirit starts singing the same song in tongues. There is no translation yet we assume that she is singing the same lyrics but in a different tongue. What do you think about that?

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Not true. The AG did rebuke prosperity gospel preachers. See post #24 for the link. I was saved in an AG church and as a young believer remember the teaching against these preachers. As I recall several prosperity teachers lost their credentials with the AG over this.

I agree Charismatics can get pretty flaky but based on my experience, not all Charismatics have strayed far from Pentecostal distinctives. One must be careful suggesting that there are flaky Charismatics, therefore, all Charismatics are flaky.

What the AG post as their official position is not necessarily practiced in individual churches. My last AG church was teaching Bill Johnson's book "God is Good". It is a regurgitated Latter Rain/Dominionism condemned by the AG, but as long as the church sends in their dues the denomination leaders don't care.

 

[Lafftur]

One thing I say is that my denomination is very lax on tongues and aren't all to strict. Meaning speak in tongues, even on the mic, all you want and no one will complain. However I've heard several times this one lady who is a singer, sing a song, then when filled with he spirit starts singing the same song in tongues. There is no translation yet we assume that she is singing the same lyrics but in a different tongue. What do you think about that?

Hello Socreta93, after my experience, I do believe that when the Holy Spirit truly gives an "interpretation of tongues," no one will be assuming or guessing. The one that the Holy Spirit gives the interpretation to will know exactly what was said and hopefully will be able to repeat it, unless it's too wonderful that it leaves them speechless.

Great question!