Calvinists: The Just Shall Live BEFORE Having Faith

[preacher4truth]

well his point about sticking to the talking about the idea instead of attacking the person was right

I agree with sticking to the point and not attacking, but the entire point is that he is right, so, in order to respond I had to address the idea, which unfortunately has been him, his opinion, his assumptions and him being correct thus far.

That, and I can't see anything where he was attacked and so going to have to disagree (if that is what you're implying). If what I did was an attack, then your above could also be considered an attack as well imho because it hurt my feelings! (not that I believe this, but you know what I mean I'm sure).

He got addressed. He should be held to accountability, false assumptions, false conclusions, refusing to listen &c. If anyone thinks that was an attack they've forgotten what a personal attack really is.

Attack is just a way over-used word especially in forums, and even in society these days. I wish we'd all really consider using it when a real attack happens.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Since I have quoted the exact words from one of Spurgeon's sermons, why don't you enlighten us as to how it is possible for the New Birth to PRECEDE faith? And give us Bible examples of this strange phenomenon.

And putting "alleged" before believers is suggesting that they are not really saved -- questioning their salvation. Another one of your belligerent tactics.

Is that any worse than your insinuations that Christians are fabricating their Spiritual gifts?

 

[Musicus]

They believe you can be an atheist and get born again. One doesn't have to even believe in God nor the Gospel.

This is only partly correct. Not just any atheist, but just the ones who are predestined to be born again. The Calvinist doctrines generally state that the belief in God (the faith) follows salvation (or is simultaneous with it). How this could possibly work is beyond me. It's not at all what the Bible says. It's like believing I'll get a bike for my birthday after I got bike on my birthday, or something like that. But that's what the Calvinists whom I know tell me.

But I think you got Habakkuk wrong. I'm quite sure he was referring to those who become just[ified] (or righteous) living by faith [in God] (obviously meaning those who are 'born again' in today's time, since that's the only way of being justified, even Calvinists agree with that I think), not to atheists. I mean come on, how can someone have faith in what they don't believe in?

 

[Deade]

Since I have quoted the exact words from one of Spurgeon's sermons, why don't you enlighten us as to how it is possible for the New Birth to PRECEDE faith? And give us Bible examples of this strange phenomenon.

And putting "alleged" before believers is suggesting that they are not really saved -- questioning their salvation. Another one of your belligerent tactics.

Hi Nehemiah6,

I guess one instance where conversion preceded faith would be Paul's case. When Jesus confronted him on the road to Damascus. But then Paul did have faith in God, just not in Jesus. I think the disciples were praying for his conversion.

I have thought a lot about predestination. I think we misunderstand much of it. God knew everyone He would call from before the foundation of the world. He also knew all our works. Does that say we don't have choices? Of course not, that is just plain silly. I believe God also knows about the choices we make. He knew Solomon would turn his back on Him, but He still used Solomon while he sought God. It can be the same for us.

I think it is best for us not to think about predestination too much. It might affect our choices. It would be far better to fix our hearts on God and run the race before us. We serve the living, reigning God.

Yours,

Deade

 

[John146]

All I can do is suggest you study the character of God morte.

If God can be surprised. He would not make a very good prophet. And you could NEVER consider his prophesies to be anything but guesses. Because God could be suprised again.


Again, God repented he made man also. Did he repent as in man suprised him, or did he repent, as in we are going to try it as different way.

Do not look at Gods repentance the same way a man repents. The two are not comparable. Do not try to humanize God, thats dangerous.

And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

God declared to destroy them in forty days. God did not destroy them in forty days. Why did God change His direction? Nineveh believed God and turned from their evil ways.

Again, God was not surprised. He was not caught off guard. He simply made a declaration. Nineveh listened and turned. God decided out of His mercy to spare them. Why is this so difficult for people to comprehend?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

God declared to destroy them in forty days. God did not destroy them in forty days. Why did God change His direction? Nineveh believed God and turned from their evil ways.

Again, God was not surprised. He was not caught off guard. He simply made a declaration. Nineveh listened and turned. God decided out of His mercy to spare them. Why is this so difficult for people to comprehend?

God is omniscient, He knew they were going to repent before he sent Jonah, He knew they would repent before they repented. God said the penalty of sin is death, If we do not repent, we will die also.

of Course, God also knows who will repent. They do not surprise him, He knew it from before time, And he chose to save them based on this foreknowledge.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

No, faith isn't a good thing but God recons it to be a good thing. Do you get that?

No...most emphatically, I can say no, I don't get it when you say that trusting God is not a good thing. Faith=trust. No, I don't get it. It is my trust that I live by. A righteous man lives by his trust. This that you say is incomprehensible to me.

 

[PennEd]

PennEd,

This is the primary fallacy of Calvinism in assuming that people "muster up faith" on their own steam and thus it becomes a point to boast about. That is a total misrepresentation of what the Bible teaches.

The biblical teaching on saving faith is that sinners MUST hear the Gospel which is the "seed" for the New Birth. That is why we have the Great Commission, and the Church has a mandate to preach the Gospel to every creature. When the Gospel is preached the Holy Spirit is NOT absent but very much involved with the effectiveness of the Gospel message. So the Holy Spirit BOTH convinces and convicts the sinner while the Gospel is presented. And that is how faith is generated. That is why Paul says FAITH COMETH BY HEARING and hearing by the Word of God.

If God were to give saving faith to sinners as a gift, He would give that gift to each and every person on this planet. After all God will have ALL MEN to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth.

You DO understand the Holy Spirit IS God right?

But your point is valid in the sense I see the dilemma. If God gives a measure of faith to all men, why don't all men believe?

So here is my experience. I was raised catholic, school and all. I always believed in God, but didn't get an unadulterated Gospel until I was around 28.

My brother shared with me, and although I didn't accept it right there and then, I did go to his non denom Church shortly thereafter, and fully believed and got Baptized.

There was NO logical reason for me to have gone to that Church. I was done with the Church thing. My brother held no special sway or influence on me, maybe the opposite at that time.
I am convinced it was the Lord who drew me to that Church, and gave me the push to actually go.

My cousin has received this self same message and invitation THEN, and numerous times since. Yet he has believed even LESS as time goes on.

Explain to me how this all can be anything but God?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

First, I love the template. It's pretty because it's all God.

Second, Hogan's Heroes was cartoons for the slightly older crowd. It was as funny as cartoons, just not animated like cartoons.

I disagree that the template we use in here is all God. Hey look, Lynn and I disagreed on something and she's still my sister and I love her. How about that!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I disagree that the template we use in here is all God. Hey look, Lynn and I disagreed on something and she's still my sister and I love her. How about that!

I was gonna say something, but after yesterday, will leave it alone

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No...most emphatically, I can say no, I don't get it when you say that trusting God is not a good thing. Faith=trust. No, I don't get it. It is my trust that I live by. A righteous man lives by his trust. This that you say is incomprehensible to me.

Faith is a trust, what is our trust in? That is what separates righteous faith vs unrighteous faith. And it will determine where our heart is.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

This is only partly correct. Not just any atheist, but just the ones who are predestined to be born again. The Calvinist doctrines generally state that the belief in God (the faith) follows salvation (or is simultaneous with it). How this could possibly work is beyond me. It's not at all what the Bible says. It's like believing I'll get a bike for my birthday after I got bike on my birthday, or something like that. But that's what the Calvinists whom I know tell me.

But I think you got Habakkuk wrong. I'm quite sure he was referring to those who become just[ified] (or righteous) living by faith [in God] (obviously meaning those who are 'born again' in today's time, since that's the only way of being justified, even Calvinists agree with that I think), not to atheists. I mean come on, how can someone have faith in what they don't believe in?

I meant Hab 2:4 as Paul interpreted it in Rom 1. Justification begins with faith and ends with it. But Calvinists say justification begins with predestination so the atheist is regenerated (lives) before he has faith.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I meant Hab 2:4 as Paul interpreted it in Rom 1. Justification begins with faith and ends with it. But Calvinists say justification begins with predestination so the atheist is regenerated (lives) before he has faith.

Mind if I ask what church you belong to?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I quoted a Bible translation which makes the Greek easier to understand. The gift references salvation not faith. Do you understand gender in Greek?

But once again, you try to separate salvation from faith. How is this possible if we are saved through faith?
We are saved, by Gods kindness, through trust.
And then you have said the thing God save you BY is not a good thing.
I'm really lost in trying to understand what you are meaning to say...

 

[DevotiontoBible]

No...most emphatically, I can say no, I don't get it when you say that trusting God is not a good thing. Faith=trust. No, I don't get it. It is my trust that I live by. A righteous man lives by his trust. This that you say is incomprehensible to me.

You don't understand that we really aren't righteous but that God only reckons our faith to be righteous? Our faith isn't a righteous work. Just like God reckoned Jesus to be sinful. Jesus wasn't actually sinful. My faith isn't actually a righteous act to earn Salvation. Calvinists keep mischaracterizing that our faith is acts of righteousness.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I don't get how Calvinists think that faith is earning something. If a homeless person takes a sandwich offered to him do we say he earned it? Faith is just trusting in what God has freely given.

How is it that you can arrive at this, that these men think faith is earning something, when they keep saying their faith was gifted to them...?

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Mind if I ask what church you belong to?

Calvary Chapel. But my theological training is Assembly of God.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

How is it that you can arrive at this, that these men think faith is earning something, when they keep saying their faith was gifted to them...?

Because they say if I don't believe as Calvinists do then I think I earned my Salvation.

 

[SovereignGrace]

No, it doesn't. Calvinism says regeneration precedes faith.

You’re a broken record repeatedly singing the same verse from the same song.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I can noty agree, you do not go from unbelief to saving faith in an instant, ifthis was true, the term “ faith comes by hearing makes no sense

faith is a process to me which takes time

I didn't believe God even existed. I picked up a bible and read the gospel and instantly saw that He did exist. I believed in an instant. Unbeliever to believer in one instant of time. Every day since then has been just as He said, a small seed of faith which has grown more and more as I walk with Him through all the circumstances of my days.

Faith was instant for me. Learning to remain in it without faltering (remain/abide in it) has been the process.