On Death and Dying -- Spurgeon Style

[peacefulbeliever]

Dear Peaceful, you are right. The thief comes for those three reasons: But Jesus came, that we might have life, and have it more abundantly. Just because God allows evil, doesn't mean He's not in control. Jesus is the proof that God is very much in control. If the devil were outside of God's control, then that would make him more powerful than God, and he could bind God and throw him in the pit. But the Bible makes it clear who is Creator, and who is creature.

Yes, Jesus came to give us life - abundant life. NOT rape, murder, disease, hate, etc. Those things are the result of the fall, the result of mankind's continued disobedience to God and we live in a world in which the devil is in control - if I am to believe what is written. Does that mean that he can run amuck? No, Christian's prayers, love and stance upon the word given to them to fight the spiritual battle hinders what he can do.

But what you say is completely true for the lost. The devil can steal, kill, and destroy them-if God allows it. We can see this in Luke 22:31-32. Here, Jesus tell Simon Peter that the devil desired to have him, but even then, God was in control. For didn't Peter go on to write two letters? And the devil may kill-if God allows, but even then, God can raise the dead. So please, don't give that loser more power than God has allowed him to have. For the creature is subject to the Creator. Hath not the Potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

"Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, Simon that your faith may not fail." The devil doesn't just prey on the lost . . . . haven't you read that our battle isn't against flesh and blood? It is a spiritual battle. Haven't you read that the devil walks around seeking whom he may devour so we are to be alert and aware of his devices? For a while Satan has dominion over the world but his time will come to an end - he knows it - so he will just work harder to destroy God's reputation as a loving God and destroy the integrity of God's word.

If God allows ANYONE to kill then it is God doing the killing . . . if God allows ANYONE to rape then it is God doing the raping - Satan works upon the heart of evil men (and women) to steal, kill and destroy. Evil is "allowed" because Satan's time here upon earth is not finished YET. Moses was a vessel unto honor because Moses turned and obeyed God . . . Pharaoh was a vessel unto dishonor because he would not turn and obey God. If you were a potter you would understand that sometimes you get a lump of clay that will not be molded no matter how the potter works with it . . . it is a "dishonorable" piece of clay.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

What is sad is you don't trust God and want everyone to go along with you.

I don't care who goes along with me . . . I don't care if anyone goes along with me. I have the right to state what I believe just the same as you do. I trust God with everything that is within me . . . but I know that until the end - Satan is the god of this world and that the whole world lies in wickedness that is why we live in this world but are not to be a part of this world. When God is in control, which he was in Eden, the garden of delight, when He "saw all that he had made and it was very good" . . . which will be again when even the wild animals such as lions and wolves will live peacefully with sheep and goats (Isa. 11:6-9) - the world will be a wonderful place which is how God meant for things to be until Satan and a third of the angels were cast out of heaven due to pride and man listened to him and disobeyed God.

 

[JGIG]

Poor weak God! That mean serpent in the garden overpowered Him, that mean devil is too tough for Him, those mean Jews were too strong for Him to save His boy! Really? You really believe all that? Wow, why would you even believe in such a weak God? I believe in a mighty, powerful God, a God who not only created everything, but also knows all that will happen from the end to the beginning. Isaiah 46:9-10

On the contrary -

It is a strong God Who gives His children the freedom to choose.

It is a strong God Who loved and provided a way back after the Fall.

It is a strong God Who, in His mercy, came in the flesh to satisfy His justice on our behalf, even while we were yet sinners.​

That's the antithesis of Deism, btw.



-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Ok, I'll see your 1 John 5:19 and your 2 Corinthians 4:4, and I'll raise you with Colossians 1:16-17"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."

For me, a good picture of how God meets us in the circumstances of this fallen world is the account of Jesus in the boat with the disciples during the storm.

Just because Jesus is in our boat doesn't mean that the storms of life won't affect us.

Did Jesus/God cause that storm?

No - that storm came about in the normal course of weather patterns and earth systems that are a result of the Fall (along with tornadoes, hurricanes, floods, fires, volcanoes, etc.).

Nevertheless, Christ (God in the flesh) chooses to be present with us in the midst of life's storms.

-JGIG

 

[peacefulbeliever]

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.[Romans 8:28]

Notice that Paul wrote 'God causes all things to work together for good'. It does not say that God uses just the good things, but all things, both good and bad.

This verse doesn't say that God causes bad things to happen so that he can make it good. Doesn't Romans 3:8 say that condemnation is due those who "render evil for good"?

For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,[Philippians 1:29]

Again, Paul is writing to believers that it has been granted for them to suffer for His sake. God is the God of good times, and also God of the bad times.

Yes, Christians suffer persecution for preaching the gospel, persecution from unbelievers not persecution from God. Our purpose is to spread the good news of Christ, and we will suffer for it but NOT from God.

And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.[Romans 5:3-6]

In this passage, again Paul is writing to believers. God did not save us and put us in bubble wrap. He knew we'd be in the world, and in the world, some would be killed, some tortured, some maimed, some eaten, some beaten, &c. But every time a believer suffers for His sake, and they live, they grow in their faith. And if they die, He takes them home. Either way, He works even the bad things to their good.

Yes, but "some would be killed, some would be maimed, some beaten, etc." was not done BY God but the result of those fighting against those preaching the gospel. I believe that I said that it rains on the just and the unjust. God does take the bad things and turn them to good . . . what I am saying is that God doesn't CAUSE the bad things and turn them to good, i.e. render evil for good. Yes, he knew we would be in the world . . . and the world is Satan's domain; i.e. the god of this world.
But when the bad times roll, God is not just sitting there twiddling His thumbs.[/QUOTE]
I don't think I said he was. I am saying that God is NOT the causation of the "bad times".

 

[peacefulbeliever]

What is deism? What do deists believe?

Question: "What is deism? What do deists believe?"

Answer: Deism is essentially the view that God exists, but that He is not directly involved in the world. Deism pictures God as the great “clockmaker” who created the clock, wound it up, and let it go. A deist believes that God exists and created the world, but does not interfere with His creation. Deists deny the Trinity, the inspiration of the Bible, the deity of Christ, miracles, and any supernatural act of redemption or salvation. Deism pictures God as uncaring and uninvolved. Thomas Jefferson was a famous deist, referring often in his writings to “Providence.”

Deism is most definitely not biblical. The Bible is filled with accounts of the miraculous. The Bible is, in fact, entirely an account of God interfering in His creation. Daniel 4:34b-35 records, “His dominion is an eternal dominion; His kingdom endures from generation to generation. All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as He pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back His hand or say to Him: ‘What have you done?’” The world, history, and humanity are “clay” in the hands of God. God forms them and shapes them as He sees fit (Romans 9:19-21). The ultimate act of God “interfering” with His creation is when He took on human flesh in the Person of Jesus Christ (John 1:1,14; 10:30). Jesus Christ, God in the flesh, died to redeem His creation from the sin it had brought upon itself (Romans 5:8; 2 Corinthians 5:21).

Yep, Jesus Christ did die to redeem his creation from the sin it brought upon itself . . . but the day of redemption, when Christ comes to receive his purchased possession unto himself, has not happened yet so until then - Satan is the "god of this world". The last enemy, death, has yet to be destroyed (1 Cor. 15:26) . . . the last enemy, the devil, who holds the power of death (Heb. 2:14b) has yet to be destroyed . . . And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown (Rev. 20:10) Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:14). . . THAT IS THE END of sin and death.

It’s easy to understand how deism could be considered a “logical” position. There are some things in the world that seem to point to God being inactive in the affairs of the world. Why does God allow bad things to happen? Why does God allow the innocent to suffer? Why does God allow evil men to come to power? An inactive God would seem to answer these dilemmas. However, the Bible does not present God as inactive or uncaring. The Bible presents God as sovereign, although incomprehensible in His totality. It is impossible for us to fully understand God and His ways. Romans 11:33-34 reminds us, “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and His paths beyond tracing out! Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been His counselor?" In Isaiah 55:9 God declares, “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.”

for, Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. (1 Cor. 2:16)
Isaiah 55:9 - Who is God talking to? "Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon. For my thoughts are not your thoughts neither my ways your ways." True, God's thoughts are not the thoughts of the wicked or unrighteous nor God's ways the ways of the wicked or unrighteous.

Our failure in understanding God and His ways should not cause us to doubt His existence (atheism and agnosticism) or to question His involvement in the world (deism). God does exist and is very active in the world. Everything that takes place is subject to His sovereignty and authority. In fact, He orchestrates everything to bring about the divine sovereign plan. "I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do" (Isaiah 46:10-11). Deism is most definitely not biblical. A deistic view of God is simply a failure in attempting to explain the unexplainable.

https://www.gotquestions.org/deism.html

That's why I said you're teetering upon Deism. If God just sits back, that's what Deists believe, too.

I believe that I said what God has planned and purposed will be fulfilled. "so shall my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it."

I never said God just sits back . . . that is why we should all pray - Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.

 

[JGIG]

I never said that. You confuse God's will with what God allows. I don't.

There are those here who DO believe that God causes bad things to teach us lessons or as punishment.

It is the Calvinist model of the sovereignty of God. Not all Calvinists hold to that model strictly, but many do.

I know of those who have turned to paganism because they believe it is kinder than the Calvinist picture of the sovereignty of God. NOTE that I say the Calvinist picture of the sovereignty of God, not an accurate picture of the sovereignty of God. Those who 'turn away' from their faith usually do so because they've come to believe a flawed picture of a god they want nothing to do with.

A clear distinction between 'God wills' and 'God allows' needs to be made, along with an acknowledgement that this fallen world has systems and cycles that are not as God originally intended, but are fallen, and do affect the just and the unjust. That doesn't mean that all things are not still held together by God, but He does not micromanage - it rains on the just and the unjust, just as the Scriptures say.

And then, as in the case of sickness and infirmities, a further distinction needs to be made regarding the fact that we, even as children of God, live in a fallen world. There are flaws even in the genes and DNA of us humans - because we are ALL affected by the Fall. Those effects are not universally removed because one comes to Christ.

Are there times when God supernaturally intervenes for one's safety or health? I do believe that is the case, but not always the case.

I'm so sorry for the loss of shrume's baby sister. Our family spent a year at St. Jude Children's Research Hospital with one of our seven children, our then 11-year-old boy who had been diagnosed with metastatic brain and spine cancer. He did well - God provided us with the very best scenario for his treatment, and though there is scar tissue that still shows on scans, he is now 14, two years post-treatment, and thriving!

But we did not know how it would all turn out - even if he would celebrate his 12th birthday! And we know families who had children who did not do well and were lost - from different types of cancer, from the same type of cancer (one sweet girl, diagnosed at just under two, lived just a wee bit past her third birthday.) Is it God's will that some live and some die? That He goes down the line saying, "Life, death, life, death, death, life, life, death."?

No, I don't believe that. I do believe that He loves those wee ones - and their parents and siblings, and in the midst walks every step with those who are His - and we who are His are to reach out to those who don't know Him with comfort and practical helps to love them well and share the Gospel with them when those doors open.

We, as believers, have an eternal perspective in this fallen world, and can walk with great hope in what can seem like a hopeless world. It gives us the ability to love others well in the face of adversity - whether ours or theirs - and share the hope that we have in Christ.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is this: God works in the midst of and in spite of the trials, tragedies, and sickness that this fallen world throws at us, He does not will those trials, tragedies, and sicknesses to then show His power and sovereignty. God works His will despite the evils in this fallen world, He does not cause, or even allow in a targeted way, those evils to then work His will.

God can take what is meant for evil that originates with the Enemy and reckon it for good and to serve His ultimate purposes. We see that truth all throughout the Scriptures.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Originally Posted by Depleted

It's the sovereign thingy they hate. They want a co-reigner in God, maybe even a right hand man for them in God. Basically, they rather control God than be controlled, (as if they could.)​

I guess what I believe about all of this is summed up so very well with the following song. When our son was in treatment for metastatic brain and spine cancer, we did not know how it would all turn out. There were very hard days. For all nine of us - parents and seven children.

And we had to make a choice to trust God. That no matter what, He is good, and He loves us. And that somehow, in some way, He would redeem what life in this fallen world had thrown at us. And even if our son had died, there was value and beauty in the journey. Seeing the love and provision from God and the Body of Christ, how our son - even in the depths of the journey and at the lowest points - literally raised his hands to God in worship from his hospital bed as he listened to worship music - God was indeed doing something beautiful in the midst:


[video=youtube;fv6foJHaxLg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fv6foJHaxLg[/video]

-JGIG

 

[Depleted]

Before I start, let me be as blunt as I usually am.

Not for a moment do I think you will accept any answer to your questions except for your belief that Satan overpowers God, so God just keeps scrambling to catch up.

I don't answer your questions, because you want an answer.

I answer your questions to prove this will not stop you from asking the same foolish, childish questions that any immature question tends to start considering early and seek real answers. You are not. Not immature, nor mature. You're just here to prove your catching-up, incompetent god is far superior to what you consider the real God -- "The Calvinist's God." You're not really out to prove God at all or to learn God at all. You're merely out to prove Calvinism wrong. That IS your only theology.

That said. Will answer your questions anyway.

Sounds good, but is it true?

I don't think so.

If God's will is always done, why are we to pray for it to be done? Why bother praying at all?

Who is the god of this world [age]? 2 Cor 4:4

2 Tim 2:
26) And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Whose will? God's? No..

Eph 6:
10) Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11) Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12) For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13) Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14) Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15) And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16) Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17) And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18) Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

I don't think most Christians understand the spiritual war we're stuck in for now. It's real.

Why do we pray for the Lord's will to be done? Because our will is naturally opposed to his will, so by praying for his will, we start coming into his will, see the graciousness, the mightiness, the skill, the perfection of his will. In short praying for his will turns our measly, weak, ineffective, haughty will into God's mighty will through God's strength in us.

Who is the God of the age? The one and only everlasting, eternal, perfect God.

Why do you have problems with this? Because you keep thinking it's done by your strength and wisdom.

 

[Depleted]

If God is in control of everything, then how can it be an actual war?

Really? So, Abram shouldn't have gone to save Lot? The Israelites should have stayed in Egypt? They shouldn't have even gone into the Promise Land because it belonged to someone else? Yeah. You have a strange concept about God and wars.

Is God in control of you? To what extent? Do you ALWAYS do what He wants you to do? (I know I don't..)

Read Book of Jonah. Jonah didn't wanna, until God got him to wanna, and even after God got him to wanna, Jonah had a hissy-fit afterward.

If you don't, then in what way is God in control of everything?

Who is the god of this age? (2 Cor 4:4) What does it mean to be the god of this age?

2 Tim 2:
26) And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Whose will?

Do you believe people are taken captive by the devil because it's God's will? I don't.

Acts 10:
38) How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

God was with Jesus, enabling Jesus to heal people that were oppressed by the devil. If you believe God is in control of everything, do you believe it is God's will for the devil to oppress people? So Christ was healing the very same people that God had given permission to the devil to oppress? How can it be God's will for the devil to oppress people and at the same time be God's will for Christ to heal those very same people?

A house divided against itself cannot stand.

Same thing you said last time, so no question, no answer, although frankly, I'm not sure which house you belong to. As for oppressed people? Are you kidding?

The Israelites under Pharaoh weren't oppressed? They weren't oppressed in the wilderness? They weren't oppressed in the Promise Land? And that new sect that bloomed under Roman rule -- those Christians -- weren't oppressed?

Really? You don't get this. Oppression works! It presses his people into the Lord, for the same reason a fish stomach pressed Jonah into God's service -- he's our only hope, so we cling. It's like removing whey from curds. A bit tough being sieved like that, but won't turn into anything worthwhile without the squeezing.

Why are we encouraged to stand against the wiles of the devil if God is the one orchestrating everything, including putting His stamp of approval on the actions of the enemy?

It would be great if you could try to answer some of these questions rather than reiterating your belief that God is in control of everything.

It would be great if you actually listened to the answers, but I think I just finished Round 21, and you'll be back with the same ole, same ole in Round 22.

And, that's why I bow out from answering.

 

[shrume]

Before I start, let me be as blunt as I usually am.

Blunt is one thing. Jesus Christ was frequently blunt.

You are at times flat out rude.

Not for a moment do I think you will accept any answer to your questions except for your belief that Satan overpowers God, so God just keeps scrambling to catch up.

I don't answer your questions, because you want an answer.

I answer your questions to prove this will not stop you from asking the same foolish, childish questions that any immature question tends to start considering early and seek real answers. You are not. Not immature, nor mature. You're just here to prove your catching-up, incompetent god is far superior to what you consider the real God -- "The Calvinist's God." You're not really out to prove God at all or to learn God at all. You're merely out to prove Calvinism wrong. That IS your only theology.

I'm trying to help you understand what God is like. He is not the God Calvinists think He is. He does not do some of the things Calvinists claim He does. He is not responsible for many of the things Calvinists claim.

We can trust that God is ALWAYS good.

(Also, you might want to proofread things before you post. Some of your insults and false assertions do not make sense.)

That said. Will answer your questions anyway.

Why do we pray for the Lord's will to be done? Because our will is naturally opposed to his will, so by praying for his will, we start coming into his will, see the graciousness, the mightiness, the skill, the perfection of his will. In short praying for his will turns our measly, weak, ineffective, haughty will into God's mighty will through God's strength in us.

Where does the Bible say that?

Who is the God of the age? The one and only everlasting, eternal, perfect God.

Reread 2 Cor 4:4. It is not speaking of God.

Why do you have problems with this? Because you keep thinking it's done by your strength and wisdom.

I never once said anything about my strength or wisdom.

 

[shrume]

And, that's why I bow out from answering.

So will I, Lynn.

I hope to meet you at the return.

 

[Depleted]

It's funny how instead of answering my questions:

you are answering my questions with more questions?

The whole point of Job is to show that "it rains on the just and the unjust" - how righteous you are doesn't promise you life without difficulties. Jesus is the subject of the Bible from Genesis through Revelation - the prophecies told of him would come to pass - what God has said will come to pass. Was God in control in the garden? So God planned for Satan to tempt Eve and for them to sin? I thought God wanted a family and that is the whole reason he created man to fellowship with him . . .
​

​

Best witness I've ever heard on TV.

The news report was about two young men coming home from classes as Westminster Seminary, and a drunk hit their car and killed them.

So naturally, the reporter needed a somber, crying, reaction from their wives, and got it.

They said, "The Lord is sovereign even in this. Our husbands are with him now. As Jesus asked us to do, we forgive the man who did this. And, we will miss our husbands until we go home." Tears streaming down their faces.

Yes! The Lord is sovereign even with drunk drivers. And, man! I saw it that night.

You blame God for stuff that never happened to you. (Not very peaceful at all.) I thank the Lord and shake, because of the stuff he HAS done to me.

 

[Depleted]

Well, I had to look that one up . . . still don't understand exactly what it means. But I don't believe I am a "deist". I believe that the scriptures are God breathed. I believe we have a heavenly Father who is very concerned about us and he answers the prayers of those that love him and therefore, is very involved in our lives.

​

The problem you believe in "a heavenly Father," the one that fits your desires. There is only one, and he doesn't always meet with our desires. Matter of fact, he rarely meets what we want in "a" god.

 

[Depleted]

It seems you have a different definition of love than I do. It seems you have a different definition of holy and righteous than I do. It seems you have a different understanding that there is a god of this world and that this world lies in wickedness.

God made Joseph's brothers jealous of him so they would try to get rid of him? God rendered evil so that good would come . . . .

All Christians suffer persecution in one form or another . . . . not from God.

Again - God does not render evil so that good will come - I believe God says something about that in Romans 3:8.

And sorry but I still believe that the thief comes to steal, and to kill, and to destroy.

Same problem. You keep inventing your own definitions, and your own personal beliefs. It doesn't work.

 

[Depleted]

Some confuse God's permissive will with His
sovereign will, as if He would violate His moral will

And some like to divide God's will into sections, so they can excuse him, without excusing anyone else but themselves.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

God is all powerful

but He does not tempt man with evil at any point....


Lets say i choose to smoke cigarettes my whole life....


does God tempt me to smoke? no....


lets say as a smoker i get lung cancer because of my choice....

could God have stopped me from smoking?

yes....

is He wrong for allowing me to get cancer?

No....
it was my choice


Gods will is currently active.... and is done perfectly even now


if someone thinks trials....illness....death

cannot be used for a greater good you are mistaken


wether it is to teach a hard lesson
or to further prophecy
or glorify His name to whoever He wishes

....it is always just and good

who would i be (an imperfect far from all knowing man)
to question Gods plan?

or to belittle His power....


when someone is tempted by the enemy
or flesh it is not God doing this

but He being all powerful
and all knowing

can work all things for good for His purpose



if He so chose to harden one mans heart (through sin or through any form of rejecting him or whatever reason He chooses)
and soften anothers (these men still making their own choices in the present from their limited perspective)


it is still just

no matter how much someone wants to argue


its not like He hasnt provided a way out

(coming from someone who claims no denomination)

 

[SovereignGrace]

This verse doesn't say that God causes bad things to happen so that he can make it good. Doesn't Romans 3:8 say that condemnation is due those who "render evil for good"?

Yes, Christians suffer persecution for preaching the gospel, persecution from unbelievers not persecution from God. Our purpose is to spread the good news of Christ, and we will suffer for it but NOT from God.

Yes, but "some would be killed, some would be maimed, some beaten, etc." was not done BY God but the result of those fighting against those preaching the gospel. I believe that I said that it rains on the just and the unjust. God does take the bad things and turn them to good . . . what I am saying is that God doesn't CAUSE the bad things and turn them to good, i.e. render evil for good. Yes, he knew we would be in the world . . . and the world is Satan's domain; i.e. the god of this world.
But when the bad times roll, God is not just sitting there twiddling His thumbs.

I don't think I said he was. I am saying that God is NOT the causation of the "bad times".

I am not saying God forces a man to get slobbering drunk and get behind the wheel. I am not saying God forces a man to strap a bomb to himself and blow himself and 100's of others up when it goes off. I am not saying God forces a man to rape, murder, molest, steal, kill, beat up ppl. Man's wicked heart is what causes that.

What I am saying, and the bible supports it, is God uses wicked ppl to fulfill His purposes.

So the God of Israel stirred up the spirit of Pul, king of Assyria, even the spirit of Tilgath-pilneser king of Assyria, and he carried them away into exile, namely the Reubenites, the Gadites and the half-tribe of Manasseh, and brought them to Halah, Habor, Hara and to the river of Gozan, to this day.[1 Chronicles 5:26]

When God fulfills a purpose, He will even use the wicked.

When our Lord was crucified, it was God who used wicked ppl, ppl who hated God's Christ, to beat, mock, spit upon, rip the beard from His sweet face, and nail to the cross.

this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.[Acts 2:23]

The Christ was delivered over into the hands of wicked ppl by God Himself. He used their wicked hearts to fulfill His eternal purpose.

 

[SovereignGrace]

This verse doesn't say that God causes bad things to happen so that he can make it good. Doesn't Romans 3:8 say that condemnation is due those who "render evil for good"?

Yes, Christians suffer persecution for preaching the gospel, persecution from unbelievers not persecution from God. Our purpose is to spread the good news of Christ, and we will suffer for it but NOT from God.

Yes, but "some would be killed, some would be maimed, some beaten, etc." was not done BY God but the result of those fighting against those preaching the gospel. I believe that I said that it rains on the just and the unjust. God does take the bad things and turn them to good . . . what I am saying is that God doesn't CAUSE the bad things and turn them to good, i.e. render evil for good. Yes, he knew we would be in the world . . . and the world is Satan's domain; i.e. the god of this world.
But when the bad times roll, God is not just sitting there twiddling His thumbs.
I don't think I said he was. I am saying that God is NOT the causation of the "bad times".

Who sent that evil spirit to vex King Saul?

 

[shrume]

Who sent that evil spirit to vex King Saul?

Satan did.

As mentioned before, very little is mentioned about the devil in the OT. People would not have been able to deal with a powerful, invisible spiritual enemy. In the OT, God frequently takes the credit for both good and evil.

In the NT, Jesus Christ made known the Father. Likewise, he made known the nature of the devil, and the reality of the spiritual we are in the middle of.