misunderstandings between Catholics and Christians

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SantoSubito

Guest
Lets look what the command says about covet.

17 “(A)You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; (B)you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife or his male servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or ANYTHING THAT BELONGS to your neighbor.”

Hmm, seems the protestants did not change anything, they just made it simple.


You almost had me fooled there. Thank God for his word I could check what you said.
Aah but they equate coveting a woman (lust) with coveting things (greed). Really though your missing my point, what I've been trying to say is that there is no God-given order to the commandments and you shouldn't get into a tizzy just because Catholics order them differently then you do. Heck, I don't see you guys going after the Jews for combining "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" and "Thou shalt not make graven images" into one commandment.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Aah but they equate coveting a woman (lust) with coveting things (greed). Really though your missing my point, what I've been trying to say is that there is no God-given order to the commandments and you shouldn't get into a tizzy just because Catholics order them differently then you do. Heck, I don't see you guys going after the Jews for combining "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" and "Thou shalt not make graven images" into one commandment.
well I have been to many so called protty churches. and never heard lust of a woman called greed. I have always heard it called lust.

I think the point is scripture calls it ten. So why would we call it anything else.

Do not covet is one command. Then he explains what that means. they all fall under one command.


Making a graven image would fall under Idol, and not other gods I agree.


Have no other gods
No idols
Lords name in vein
Sabbath
Honor parents
Murder
Adultry
Theft
Lieing (false witness)
Covet

Those are the ten, Some have explanation, Like coveting, as to what it is. some, like murder, does not. So it seems like there are more, when some just fall under one command.


The important thing is what James said, if I break the least of these command, I as as guilty as if I broke them all.

If I bear false witness, I am as guilty as a murderer, and the penalty is the same.
people don;t see this. they see murder as huge, and lieing as little, So the eternal punishment must not be the same, and I do not have to work as hard to have the least forgiven.

when God says the penalty of ALL of these sins is death.
 
L

Livi94

Guest
If it is Yahweh's will for His Word to survive theology it will. Actually, it has survived in spite of the meddling of men.
There is nothing you can justify about any of the departure from Yahweh.

The key is, do you believe you should obey Yahweh or disobey Yahweh.

If you believe you should obey Him, read His Word and do His Word.

Worship Yahweh. Saint and Mary worship is not of Yahweh. Mary is certainly never going to be pleased with all the catholics trying to raise her above Yahweh. She always listened to her Son when on this earth, and if she listened to her Son so should the catholics.

As a Catholic myself, we do NOT put anyone above our Lord! You know how people ask others to pray for their loved ones? Well, praying to Mary, the Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ, or to Saints, or even passed away loved ones... we simply ask them to relay our prayers to God. They are (afterall) closer to Him than we are here on Earth. We do need help sometimes talking to God. We also like to talk to our Saints, and loved ones through prayer. Tell me, what is wrong with that? Just because we pray to Mary does NOT mean that we are putting anyone before God. This seems to be a major concern with people who are not Catholic, although, I stil don't understand as to why since our Lord reigns highest... I'm sorry that I went off on a rant, that comment just slightly disturbed me.
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
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As a Catholic myself, we do NOT put anyone above our Lord! You know how people ask others to pray for their loved ones? Well, praying to Mary, the Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ, or to Saints, or even passed away loved ones... we simply ask them to relay our prayers to God. They are (afterall) closer to Him than we are here on Earth. We do need help sometimes talking to God. We also like to talk to our Saints, and loved ones through prayer. Tell me, what is wrong with that? Just because we pray to Mary does NOT mean that we are putting anyone before God. This seems to be a major concern with people who are not Catholic, although, I stil don't understand as to why since our Lord reigns highest... I'm sorry that I went off on a rant, that comment just slightly disturbed me.
You have been taught this way, and do not understand the problem with it.

But you must stop believing man, and start listening to Almighty Yahvah God and Yahshua the Messiah.

Do not take my word for it, read the Bible Old and New front to back.

It is difficult to know what they are doing is wrong, yet the deceived will not come out of it.

None here is offering you anything, just a nudge in the right direction, out of that Abominable organisation.

You do not need to pray to mary or their "saints".

Would you ring me, if you wanted to talk to your teacher? No, you would ring your teacher direct.........
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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There are more than ten imperative statements in the passage we draw the ten commandments from. So in order to arrive at ten some have to be combined. Quite frankly I don't care if Spaniards have a longstanding tradition of throwing a goat out of a church tower in honor of a miraculous event in the life of a Saint (can't remember the story right now but I'll find it later).

Also I'm not entirely sure why you would object to the Catholic numbering since the traditional Jewish numbering of the commandments does the same thing.

Jewish numbering:
1. I am the Lord your God who brought you out of slavery in Egypt.
2. You shall have no other gods but me.
3. You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God.
4. You shall remember and keep the Sabbath day holy.
5. Honor your father and mother.
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
10. You shall not covet.

Catholic/Orthodox/Lutheran numbering:
1. I, the Lord, am your God. You shall not have other gods besides me.
2. You shall not take the name of the Lord God in vain
3. Remember to keep holy the Lord's Day
4. Honor your father and your mother
5. You shall not kill
6. You shall not commit adultery
7. You shall not steal
8. You shall not bear false witness
9. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife
10. You shall not covet your neighbor's goods:


Protestant numbering:
1.You shall have no other gods but me.
2.You shall not make unto you any graven images
3.You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain
4.You shall remember the Sabbath and keep it holy
5.Honor your mother and father
6.You shall not murder
7.You shall not commit adultery
8.You shall not steal
9.You shall not bear false witness
10.You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor

In this regard Protestants do not consider "I am the Lord thy God" a commandment and so they split the first commandment into two (in the Catholic numbering; it's the second commandment according to the Jewish numbering).
Perhaps, were you to read the original Hebrew, it will come to you. Latin is a translation from the original.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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As a Catholic myself, we do NOT put anyone above our Lord! You know how people ask others to pray for their loved ones? Well, praying to Mary, the Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ, or to Saints, or even passed away loved ones... we simply ask them to relay our prayers to God. They are (afterall) closer to Him than we are here on Earth. We do need help sometimes talking to God. We also like to talk to our Saints, and loved ones through prayer. Tell me, what is wrong with that? Just because we pray to Mary does NOT mean that we are putting anyone before God. This seems to be a major concern with people who are not Catholic, although, I stil don't understand as to why since our Lord reigns highest... I'm sorry that I went off on a rant, that comment just slightly disturbed me.
Mary is the mother of Yeshua, God incarnate, however God has no mother for He has no beginning and no end. As for praying to people who sleep in the dust, this is an abomination. If you say we "ask them to pray for us," this is worse because it is practicing the practice of a medium. If you do not believe this, look at the story of Samuel having been summoned by King Saul through a medium.

Who are the saints? The saints are all who are sanctified by the Blood of Yahweh's Lamb, Yeshua. This is you and all who love Him as Savior of mankind from his wrongdoing. No man has the authority to take this privilege away from the saints called by Yahweh.

As for saints walking around heaven with our Lord now, it is written when Yeshua returns those who are sleep in the dust will arise first to meet Him in the clouds FOLLOWED by we who remain alive. No theology will change the order of things foretold by Yahweh through His servants, the prophets.

When reading Yahweh's Word, listen to what you read, believe Yahweh, obey Him and most of all worship Yahweh. When we worship Him, it is impossible not to do the rest. Bless all who are in Yeshua and all who will come to Him, amen. Thank You, Father, amen.
 

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
Aug 3, 2009
1,272
3
0
You have been taught this way, and do not understand the problem with it.

But you must stop believing man, and start listening to Almighty Yahvah God and Yahshua the Messiah.

Do not take my word for it, read the Bible Old and New front to back.

It is difficult to know what they are doing is wrong, yet the deceived will not come out of it.

None here is offering you anything, just a nudge in the right direction, out of that Abominable organisation.

You do not need to pray to mary or their "saints".

Would you ring me, if you wanted to talk to your teacher? No, you would ring your teacher direct.........
But I have no problem calling up my best friend's mother and father if I wanted to reach him, or if I wanted them to ask him something for me. In fact, it would be pretty rude to tell my friends, "I want to be your very best friend! But I don't want to get to know your mother!"

I do agree however that we should read the Scriptures, it was through the reading of the Scriptures that Christ Our Lord led me to His Church, the Catholic Church.
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,086
190
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But I have no problem calling up my best friend's mother and father if I wanted to reach him, or if I wanted them to ask him something for me. In fact, it would be pretty rude to tell my friends, "I want to be your very best friend! But I don't want to get to know your mother!"





I do agree however that we should read the Scriptures, it was through the reading of the Scriptures that Christ Our Lord led me to His Church, the Catholic Church.
You are making it weird, and i just feel for you .

The catholic church is not Yahshua the Messiah's church... Oh friend please consider that you have been deceived.


These people have really messed with people it makes me sad.
 
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Consumed

Guest
But I have no problem calling up my best friend's mother and father if I wanted to reach him, or if I wanted them to ask him something for me. In fact, it would be pretty rude to tell my friends, "I want to be your very best friend! But I don't want to get to know your mother!"

I do agree however that we should read the Scriptures, it was through the reading of the Scriptures that Christ Our Lord led me to His Church, the Catholic Church.
heres the thing though bro, we are told that we now have access to the Father because of the finished work of the cross, to enter boldly, we can for we are hidden in Christ, boldly as no condemnation so why would i want to go ask someone else to petition my requests thanks etc when I have grace upon grace, favor with the King to enter 24/7 eternally.
some will use one two scriptures and then make a doctrine out of it. however one cant go past that Gods Word - "it is written"

Jesus says pray to the Father and even was so kind to outline how - Lords prayer, hmmmm oops He forgot mum
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,246
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heres the thing though bro, we are told that we now have access to the Father because of the finished work of the cross, to enter boldly, we can for we are hidden in Christ, boldly as no condemnation so why would i want to go ask someone else to petition my requests thanks etc when I have grace upon grace, favor with the King to enter 24/7 eternally.
some will use one two scriptures and then make a doctrine out of it. however one cant go past that Gods Word - "it is written"

Jesus says pray to the Father and even was so kind to outline how - Lords prayer, hmmmm oops He forgot mum
Mary is the mother of Yeshua, God incarnate, however God has no mother for He has no beginning and no end. As for praying to people who sleep in the dust, this is an abomination. If you say we "ask them to pray for us," this is worse because it is practicing the practice of a medium. If you do not believe this, look at the story of Samuel having been summoned by King Saul through a medium.

Who are the saints? The saints are all who are sanctified by the Blood of Yahweh's Lamb, Yeshua. This is you and all who love Him as Savior of mankind from his wrongdoing. No man has the authority to take this privilege away from the saints called by Yahweh.

As for saints walking around heaven with our Lord now, it is written when Yeshua returns those who are sleep in the dust will arise first to meet Him in the clouds FOLLOWED by we who remain alive. No theology will change the order of things foretold by Yahweh through His servants, the prophets.

When reading Yahweh's Word, listen to what you read, believe Yahweh, obey Him and most of all worship Yahweh. When we worship Him, it is impossible not to do the rest. Bless all who are in Yeshua and all who will come to Him, amen. Thank You, Father, amen. Reposted to bring to your attention.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
As a Catholic myself, we do NOT put anyone above our Lord! You know how people ask others to pray for their loved ones? Well, praying to Mary, the Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ, or to Saints, or even passed away loved ones... we simply ask them to relay our prayers to God. They are (afterall) closer to Him than we are here on Earth. We do need help sometimes talking to God. We also like to talk to our Saints, and loved ones through prayer. Tell me, what is wrong with that? Just because we pray to Mary does NOT mean that we are putting anyone before God. This seems to be a major concern with people who are not Catholic, although, I stil don't understand as to why since our Lord reigns highest... I'm sorry that I went off on a rant, that comment just slightly disturbed me.
Let me start by saying people should not "hate on you" for this. This is a non salvic theology.

then let me explain why I do not believe this.

1. God is omnipresent, omniscient, and many oither things.God roams the earth, He can be sitting next to me here in my truck and sitting next to you wherever you are, and also sit next to a perosn in the most outer reaches of the earth.
2. God can hear all prayers personally. He has the capacity and ability to hear a million prayers, all said at once, and can fully comprehend, understand and know what is being said.
3. We have the HS in us. He is also God, and can not only do as above, he can also speak to God prayers on our behalf.
4. Friends and family on earth can pray for us, in fact corporate prayer is commanded and encouraged by God.

then we get to the issue at hand. Have you ever been to a concert, or large building where many people are. and try to pick out what everyone says? What do you hear? A bunch of mumbled voices, but you can't pick out what someone on the other side of the room from you is saying, it is hard enough to hear what the person next to you is saying sometimes with clarity. For you see, we are not God (we never will be) Now in taking this to acocunt.

1. Mary is not God, she can not possibly hear, comprehend and understand what hundreds of people are saying, let alone one (she would have to be rught next to you looking at you and concentrating on what you alone are saying) if she could even do this.
2. Same goes with all other people who have also gone before us to heaven. They are in paradise awaiting the return of their savior, so they can be ressurected and given the new bodies promised to them.
3. When someone says they pray to mary or saints. they are saying these people are equal with God and can do what ONLY God can do.


the HS is in you, if anything the HS will send your prayers to God (scripture even states this) the HS is not going to pass your prayer along to mary, or joseph or John or anyone else, he is going to pass it on to the father, whom he has direct access to. He is with the father, and with us at the same time.

Don't take my belief as an offense. Study it for yourself. It is not an anticatholic view. it is just my belief. Just because it apposes what you believe does not mean I believe it just to offe3nd be be against you
 
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SantoSubito

Guest
well I have been to many so called protty churches. and never heard lust of a woman called greed. I have always heard it called lust.

I think the point is scripture calls it ten. So why would we call it anything else.

Do not covet is one command. Then he explains what that means. they all fall under one command.


Making a graven image would fall under Idol, and not other gods I agree.


Have no other gods
No idols
Lords name in vein
Sabbath
Honor parents
Murder
Adultry
Theft
Lieing (false witness)
Covet

Those are the ten, Some have explanation, Like coveting, as to what it is. some, like murder, does not. So it seems like there are more, when some just fall under one command.


The important thing is what James said, if I break the least of these command, I as as guilty as if I broke them all.

If I bear false witness, I am as guilty as a murderer, and the penalty is the same.
people don;t see this. they see murder as huge, and lieing as little, So the eternal punishment must not be the same, and I do not have to work as hard to have the least forgiven.

when God says the penalty of ALL of these sins is death.
Like I said we agree that there are ten commandments. The only difference is the order we place them, which for me means they're like this:

1. I, the Lord, am your God. You shall not have other gods besides me.
2. You shall not take the name of the Lord God in vain
3. Remember to keep holy the Lord's Day
4. Honor your father and your mother
5. You shall not kill
6. You shall not commit adultery
7. You shall not steal
8. You shall not bear false witness
9. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife
10. You shall not covet your neighbor's goods:

And is that really a reason to get upset?
 
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SantoSubito

Guest
Perhaps, were you to read the original Hebrew, it will come to you. Latin is a translation from the original.
What that there is a God-given order to the commandments? Because if there is the Hebrews agree with Catholics that "Graven Images" and "false gods" is one commandment.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Like I said we agree that there are ten commandments. The only difference is the order we place them, which for me means they're like this:

1. I, the Lord, am your God. You shall not have other gods besides me.
2. You shall not take the name of the Lord God in vain
3. Remember to keep holy the Lord's Day
4. Honor your father and your mother
5. You shall not kill
6. You shall not commit adultery
7. You shall not steal
8. You shall not bear false witness
9. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife
10. You shall not covet your neighbor's goods:

And is that really a reason to get upset?
No its not. It gives us something to discuss thats all..

I think in your order. 9 and ten should be combined to you shall not covet. And you forgot to put the one about an idol.

But thats just a discussion, I would not condemn or hate ya because of it..lol
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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What that there is a God-given order to the commandments? Because if there is the Hebrews agree with Catholics that "Graven Images" and "false gods" is one commandment.
No, simply what I posted, that is all I intended to post and convey.
 
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SantoSubito

Guest
No its not. It gives us something to discuss thats all..

I think in your order. 9 and ten should be combined to you shall not covet. And you forgot to put the one about an idol.

But thats just a discussion, I would not condemn or hate ya because of it..lol
Nah 9 and 10 should be separate and "graven images" is in the first commandment, but when it's quoted shorthand it's left out. One thing I always found particularly interesting though is that Protestants don't consider the statement "I am the Lord thy God" a commandment, but a preface.
 
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SantoSubito

Guest
No, simply what I posted, that is all I intended to post and convey.
That I should learn Hebrew? Not for a while I won't Semitic languages aren't really my cup of tea. Koine Greek may be on the table in a couple of years after I finish improving my German.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Nah 9 and 10 should be separate and "graven images" is in the first commandment, but when it's quoted shorthand it's left out. One thing I always found particularly interesting though is that Protestants don't consider the statement "I am the Lord thy God" a commandment, but a preface.
well yes it is a part of the first command. and a command in and of itself. Which has huge implications.

As for the Idol part. I think we do not really know what an idol is, It is not just a graven image, Money can be my idol. It is whatever "lords" over my life. That is why I separate the first two. A graven image is just one type of idol. It takes our eyes of Christ, and puts it on the God, or persons we are making the image of.

As for coveting. You are right, there are two types, lust and greed. I would still put them under one, but thats me..lol
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,246
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That I should learn Hebrew? Not for a while I won't Semitic languages aren't really my cup of tea. Koine Greek may be on the table in a couple of years after I finish improving my German.
I guess I have been told. The most important understanding is not from language it is the Holy Spirit, although I do manage to read the Word in three languages well, in Hebrew, Italian, Portuguese and German poorly, but for cross referencing good enough. I have never tackled Greek, although if Yahweh allows me much time here, I believe it may be my next project, however at my age, languages are increasingly difficult, but nothing is impossible with Yahweh. Yahweh bless you and light the path He has chosen for you....
 

Katy-follower

Senior Member
Jun 25, 2011
2,719
155
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The problem with Catholicism is that there is nothing about it that resembles biblical Christianity at all. The Catholic Church has unfortunately deviated from God’s word, instead choosing to follow the traditions of men that have been passed down through the ages, all of which do not have any biblical support. When we trust what others say (no matter who they are), we open ourselves up to deception and people who are deceived often don't realize it, which is why we have the bible to look to as the authority in all things, that we may test everything against it. Afterall, the bible is God's word. God warned us of deception (Matthew 24:4 and 1 John 4:1). Some leaders out there are also deceived. They are what the bible describes as the blind leading the blind (Matthew 15:14).



We must always seek out the answers in God’s word. Why not go right to the source? Read His word and pray to Him. Ask Him to reveal the truth to you. He never fails and will never turn anyone away. He wants us to seek and promises that if we do so then we will find the truth. Matthew 7:7-8: “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened”. And, John 8:32: “…the truth shall set you free”. When we trust in another person to give it to us we will never find the truth.

Your points...

1. Sola Fide

The major difference between Catholicism and biblical Christianity is the topic of salvation. Catholics believe in faith + works to be saved, whereas the bible tells us it’s by faith alone. It is the grace of God, a gift from Him, not by anything we can do ourselves. We have filthy rags and are unworthy sinners. Why would God accept anything from us?

Grace is the gift and faith is the channel with which we receive it.

I think the problem is that many can’t accept the simplicity of it.

As for faith + works, it may seem like Paul and James disagree, but if you read closely it's very clear that they are saying the same thing, that works come after salvation, they are the fruit of salvation, they don't play a part in salvation, they come afterwards, prepared in advance for us by God. If someone does not bear this fruit then they're not really saved, as a saved person will produce works of the Holy Spirit)

James 2:26 – “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also"

James 2:17-19 – “Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works”. Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well”

Ephesians 2:8-9 – “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them”


2. Sola Scriptura

The Bible is complete, authoritative and true. 2 Timothy 3:16: “All scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness”

The Catholic church has made it's own traditions superior in authority to the bible. A lot of these traditions stand in opposition to the bible. The bible does not allow for traditions that contradict it's message. Scripture is true and everything should be compared to scripture.


3. Infant Baptism

Water baptism does not save anyone. It comes after salvation. It's an outward way of showing what's already happened inwardly, it's a testimony of our belief and a symbol of our relationship with Christ.

A baby does not yet understand these things, so baptism achieves nothing.

My family are all Catholics, including my husband and some of our friends. Only me and my immediate family are born again. My cousin's husband is an alter boy. As soon as their first child was born they were stressed about ensuring he got baptized immediately, as they said they were worried if anything happened to him he would go to hell. This shocked me. I personally do not believe God would send little babies to hell. Yes, we all inherited sin from Adam & Eve, but a baby cannot discern between it's left and right hand. God is a fair judge.

Infant baptism deceives many into thinking they are going to heaven so long as they do this ritual. This isn't what the bible teaches.


Actions do speak louder than words. Catholics claim to believe in the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice on the cross for all sins, but their actions say they don't and God knows it. These actions are all the things they cling to for salvation, things that God says cannot save us, as it's not of ourselves.

Imagine a set of monkey bars hanging high above hell. You are hanging onto the bars. God is standing in the middle between you and hell. Now, the monkey bars are the things you hold onto and have trust in, like penance, traditions, etc, etc. Now, if you let go of those monkey bars, would you TRUST that God would save you? Or would you rather cling to the monkey bars with no trust for God? - afterall, God says numerous times to have sole trust in him and nothing/no one else. After you die he will not catch you, as it'll be too late then.

Here is the Gospel explained very well! (NB: very graphic pictures used from 6:55-7:11)..........................​

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdDzhT0MSc4[/video]
 
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