100% Election 100% of the time.

[Chester]

UnderGrace said:
Well Mr. Penn Ed.....dead does not mean the inability to believe and no where does scripture state this in fact it is quite the opposite.



I can't. You haven't understood what being dead means.

Phone rings at 3:00 A.M. "Apartment complex on fire, at least 20 people, including 8 children trapped inside, death imminent".
Firefighter leaps out of bed, races to the scene, rushes inside, and SAVES the children and 4 people.
Who did ALL the saving? What part did the saved play?

So we are dead. There is nothing we can do. We can't even, as a natural man understand the Gospel. It is foolishness to the natural man. Which we ALL were, UNTIL GOD reached down and made us alive. HE drew us. We had a divine appt. to hear the Gospel. God quickened us at that moment, we didn't reject it. MOST DO. We heard, were quickened, were given the faith BY GOD, believed, and were BORN Again! Praise GOD!!
HE GET'S ALL THE PRAISE AND GLORY.

NOT me for being smart enough in my human wisdom and intelligence to understand the Gospel. Why rob Him of that by saying it was MY decision that made me alive?

But if I do not choose to believe, I will not be saved . . .

I do not get any glory when I choose to believe in Christ: Christ gets all the glory because He created me in His image (which means I have the ability to choose).

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

...adding to my last post:


G2564 - kaleó / kalesai / keklēmenous - "to call / invite / name" -

Matthew 22:3 V-ANA
GRK: δούλους αὐτοῦ καλέσαι τοὺς κεκλημένους
NAS: out his slaves to call those
KJV: servants to call them that were bidden
INT: servants of him to call those having been invited

Matthew 22:3 V-RPM/P-AMP
GRK: καλέσαι τοὺς κεκλημένους εἰς τοὺς
NAS: those who had been invited to the wedding feast,
KJV: to call them that were bidden to
INT: to call those having been invited to the

Matthew 22:4 V-RPM/P-DMP
GRK: Εἴπατε τοῖς κεκλημένοις Ἰδοὺ τὸ
NAS: those who have been invited, Behold,
KJV: Tell them which are bidden, Behold,
INT: Say to those having been invited Behold the

Matthew 22:8 V-RPM/P-NMP
GRK: οἱ δὲ κεκλημένοι οὐκ ἦσαν
NAS: but those who were invited were not worthy.
KJV: but they which were bidden were
INT: those moreover having been invited not were

[these ^ had rejected the invitation/call, per vv.3,5,6]

Matthew 22:9 V-AMA-2P
GRK: ἐὰν εὕρητε καλέσατε εἰς τοὺς
NAS: as you find [there], invite to the wedding feast.'
KJV: ye shall find, bid to
INT: if you shall find invite to the

Romans 8:30 V-AIA-3S
GRK: τούτους καὶ ἐκάλεσεν καὶ οὓς
NAS: He also called; and these
KJV: he also called: and whom
INT: these also he called and whom



G2822 - klétos / klētoi / klētois - "to call / invite / summon" -

Matthew 22:14 Adj-NMP
GRK: γάρ εἰσιν κλητοὶ ὀλίγοι δὲ
NAS: For many are called, but few
KJV: many are called, but few
INT: indeed are called few however

Romans 8:28 Adj-DMP
GRK: κατὰ πρόθεσιν κλητοῖς οὖσιν
NAS: to those who are called according
KJV: to them who are the called according
INT: according to [his] purpose called are

 

[Yahshua]

"Dead" also has the meaning of the prodigal son who, while he was cut off from his father, was considered dead because his father no longer saw him or had a relationship with him. The son no longer existed in the fathers eyes, until he chose to return home.

The son had no choice in being born into his loving father's family...he was predestined to be there. But he had a choice to leave it (1st death)...and a choice to return before the 2nd (final) death claimed him forever.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Right and understand the concept of predestination in context.

We were predestined to “be conformed to the image of his Son”, which is not salvation, but predestined to be conformed to his image because we already have salvation. Once we receive salvation by our belief, our destiny then becomes sealed, and we are predestined for many things.

You and I understand this in the same way, yes.


"predestined" refers to "the package deal" (so to speak) that we receive upon faith in Christ and His finished work alone, for salvation. (A sure/certain end.)


["chosen us IN HIM before the foundation of the world" (Eph1:4) is positional / legal truths pertaining to "the Church which is His body"]

 

[PennEd]

But if I do not choose to believe, I will not be saved . . .

I do not get any glory when I choose to believe in Christ: Christ gets all the glory because He created me in His image (which means I have the ability to choose).

You were NOT created in Christ's Image, UNTIL you were born again. You were born in Adam's image. We all are. God created Adam in His Image, which I'm sure you understand is MORE than just a physical appearance. Read what the image the blessed line was born:

Genesis 5:3 New King James Version (NKJV)
3 And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth.

EVERYONE born after the fall, including Seth, Abraham, Moses, David, YOU, ME, etc... were born in Adam's image. And BECAUSE you were born in Adam's image, you were born spiritually DEAD. That is why we have to be born again from Above.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Acts 17 -

27 God intended that they would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. 28 ‘For in Him we live and move and have our being.’a As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are His offspring.’b 29 Therefore, being offspring of God, we should not think that the Divine Being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by man’s skill and imagination.

30 Although God overlooked the ignorance of earlier times, He now commands all men everywhere to repent. 31 For He has set a day when He will judge the world with justice by the Man He has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising Him from the dead.”

32 When they heard about the resurrection of the dead, some began to mock him, but others said, “We want to hear you again on this topic.” 33 At that, Paul left the Areopagus. 34 But some people joined him and believed, including Dionysius the Areopagite, a woman named Damaris, and others who were with them.


Do you think that "being offspring of God" is something different to "made in His image"?

Or, do you think Paul was providing a flawed argument (seemingly agreeing with their philosophers), just for the sake of illustration, or something? to get on their good side? (lol)

Or something else... regarding this particular passage?



Also, Acts 28:24 [blb] - "And indeed, some were persuaded [G3982 - epeithonto ] of the things he is speaking, but some refused to believe [G569]."

 

[posthuman]

He created me in His image (which means I have the ability to choose).

which means He has the ability to choose..

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

EDIT (not enough time to add this bracketed comment back into that post ):

Also, Acts 28:24 [blb] - "And indeed, some were persuaded [G3982 - epeithonto ] of the things he is speaking, but some refused to believe [G569 - ēpistoun]." [same word as in Acts 17:34, quoted and included in the underlined in my post above]


G569 ēpistoun ['refused to believe' or 'disbelieved'] (from Acts 28:24, also quoted in my post above) -

[quoting from BibleHub]

Cognate: 569 apistéō (from 571 /ápistos, "unfaithful," without faith, i.e. negating 4103 /pistós, "faithful") – properly, refusing to be persuaded by God ("betray His trust," J. Thayer).
569 /apistéō ("not willing to be persuaded") means more than "disbelieve" ("not believing") because it indicates "refusing to be faithful" (honor a trust or revelation from the Lord). See 571 (apistos).
569/apisteō ("refuse to be persuaded") is sin committed by believers (Mk 16:11; Lk 24:11,41) and unbelievers (Ac 28:24; Ro 3:3; 1 Pet 2:7). 569 (apistéō) reveals a person is unconvinced when they should be persuaded by what the Lord has done (offered).

[end quoting BibleHub]

 

[cv5]

Well Mr. Penn Ed.....dead does not mean the inability to believe and no where does scripture state this in fact it is quite the opposite.

No Calvinism here. Just Paul espousing doctrine by the Holy Spirit.

Eph 2

"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, (being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses) made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—"

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—"

I posted about this in Post #137, a short time ago:

"The other issue is, to consider how the word "quickened" is used in the context of Eph2... "quickened [us] together-with [G4806 (one word in the Grk)]" Christ […]... that is, when He was, we (who believe) also were: https://biblehub.com/text/ephesians/2-5.htm "

____________

"quickened [us] together-with [G4806]" Him... WHEN HE was.

[and "saved" in that verse is "perfect participle," by the way... speaking to persons who are indeed saved]

 

[UnderGrace]

No Calvinism here. Just Paul espousing doctrine by the Holy Spirit.

Eph 2

"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, (being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses) made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—"

Well it sure lines up just fine with Calvinism....that is because this doctrine is ubiquitous across the churches.

The dead does not mean a purpose cannot choose or believe.

 

[cv5]

Well it sure lines up just fine with Calvinism....that is because this doctrine is ubiquitous across the churches.

The dead does not mean a purpose cannot choose or believe.

Well....drive to your local graveyard and preach at the top of your lungs and see if they are inclined to take your advice…..

 

[UnderGrace]

Well....drive to your local graveyard and preach at the top of your lungs and see if they are inclined to take your advice…..

How can you even make this equivocation?

 

[theanointedwinner]

define "dead"

 

[theanointedwinner]

kiddie definition for dead is

bleh bleh bleh

 

[UnderGrace]

UnderGrace said:
Well Mr. Penn Ed.....dead does not mean the inability to believe and no where does scripture state this in fact it is quite the opposite.



I can't. You haven't understood what being dead means.

Phone rings at 3:00 A.M. "Apartment complex on fire, at least 20 people, including 8 children trapped inside, death imminent".
Firefighter leaps out of bed, races to the scene, rushes inside, and SAVES the children and 4 people.
Who did ALL the saving? What part did the saved play?

So we are dead. There is nothing we can do. We can't even, as a natural man understand the Gospel. It is foolishness to the natural man. Which we ALL were, UNTIL GOD reached down and made us alive. HE drew us. We had a divine appt. to hear the Gospel. God quickened us at that moment, we didn't reject it. MOST DO. We heard, were quickened, were given the faith BY GOD, believed, and were BORN Again! Praise GOD!!
HE GET'S ALL THE PRAISE AND GLORY.

NOT me for being smart enough in my human wisdom and intelligence to understand the Gospel. Why rob Him of that by saying it was MY decision that made me alive?

This correct biblical understanding of believing.....

it is a imposed obligation by God to which man is required to exercise as a matter of his own volitional ability. When we died and lost fellowship with God we did not loose ability to believe, this completely a teaching by Augustine and is not found in scripture.

Jesus himself commanded, “repent, and believe the gospel” (Mk. 1:15).

The Lord charged those of his audiences to “believe the works” that he was performing, that they might comprehend his relationship to the Father (Jn. 10:38; cf. 14:11).

In each of the passages just cited, the Greek verb pisteuo (“believe”) is in the imperative mood — the mood of command. It thus is quite inaccurate to allege that “believing” is an act of which one is personally incapable.

Clearly, belief is an action that has been commanded by God as a means leading to one’s justification. The submission of a person to this divine call upon all men takes nothing away from the sovereignty of God.

Why did Jesus even attempt to prove who He was and perform miracles?
People can and do believe.

 

[PennEd]

This correct biblical understanding of believing.....

it is a imposed obligation by God to which man is required to exercise as a matter of his own volitional ability. When we died and lost fellowship with God we did not loose ability to believe, this completely a teaching by Augustine and is not found in scripture.

Jesus himself commanded, “repent, and believe the gospel” (Mk. 1:15).

The Lord charged those of his audiences to “believe the works” that he was performing, that they might comprehend his relationship to the Father (Jn. 10:38; cf. 14:11).

In each of the passages just cited, the Greek verb pisteuo (“believe”) is in the imperative mood — the mood of command. It thus is quite inaccurate to allege that “believing” is an act of which one is personally incapable.

Clearly, belief is an action that has been commanded by God as a means leading to one’s justification. The submission of a person to this divine call upon all men takes nothing away from the sovereignty of God.

Why did Jesus even attempt to prove who He was and perform miracles?
People can and do believe.

I can easily rebut this. No!

You heard it here 1st

 

[cv5]

This correct biblical understanding of believing.....

it is a imposed obligation by God to which man is required to exercise as a matter of his own volitional ability. When we died and lost fellowship with God we did not loose ability to believe, this completely a teaching by Augustine and is not found in scripture.

Jesus himself commanded, “repent, and believe the gospel” (Mk. 1:15).

The Lord charged those of his audiences to “believe the works” that he was performing, that they might comprehend his relationship to the Father (Jn. 10:38; cf. 14:11).

In each of the passages just cited, the Greek verb pisteuo (“believe”) is in the imperative mood — the mood of command. It thus is quite inaccurate to allege that “believing” is an act of which one is personally incapable.

Clearly, belief is an action that has been commanded by God as a means leading to one’s justification. The submission of a person to this divine call upon all men takes nothing away from the sovereignty of God.

Why did Jesus even attempt to prove who He was and perform miracles?
People can and do believe.

Matt 16:16

"Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven."

I assume this includes Peters own fallen flesh.....

John 10:25

"Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep."

The miracles of Jesus only convinced and the words of Jesus only convicted the foreordained, the elect, the chosen.

 

[theanointedwinner]

I can easily rebut this. No!

You heard it here 1st

undergrace is the type of person that doesn't accept "you say no because you said so"

explain how you arrive at that "no"

 

[Journeyman]

Exactly, boasting is about having something over and above others.

The idea that a person was gifted faith for salvation and others are not is the person who can boast.

Scripture states there is no boasting because we all have the exact same point of entry......being persuaded, believing on Christ Jesus as saviour!

Exactly right. In fact, false beliefs such as unconditional election and irresistible grace make the works of God unnecessary.

So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house. Jn.4:53

They make the greatest work ever done by God in the flesh (His resurrection) pointless.