SAVED BY WORKS

[kennethcadwell]

So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For when we were in the realm of the flesh,[SUP][a][/SUP] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. [SUP]6 [/SUP]But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. Rom 7:4-6

Which law is Paul speaking of in the above?

He trells us in the following verses:

What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet(one of the Ten Commandments).”[SUP][b][/SUP] [SUP]8 [/SUP]But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. [SUP]10 [/SUP]I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. [SUP]11 [/SUP]For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 7-11

The bible needs to be your bottom line, do not lean on your own understanding, or on a ministers own understanding when it conflicts with scripture

Yes we die to the law by being born again, and having a change of mind to not walk in those sinful ways that we once walked in. You are not dead to the law though if you continue to live the same sinful ways.

That is what some do not understand what dead to the law means, as the context in the core of Paul's teachings is that by walking in the Spirit when one is born again will not lead one to live a way that will transgress the law. Because love does no wrong, so how can one be under the law if they do not transgress it. They can't !!!


I heard a person use a good example by using worldly examples, which Paul did a lot to make it easier for ones to understand.....

We know there is a speed limit law out there, if you drive faster then the speed limit you will get a ticket.
Now does that law apply or worry about it to the person that always drives the speed limit ? No because by obeying to drive the speed limit the law of getting a ticket for speeding does not apply to them, nor do they have to worry about getting a ticket.

Same way with walking in the Spirit.
If you are walking in love do you have to worry about the punishments or outcome of sin ? No because walking in love will not transgress the law, therefore its punishment and outcome of eternal damnation is nothing to worry about. Only those who continue to transgress the law have something to worry about.

 

[michael56]

Yes we die to the law by being born again, and having a change of mind to not walk in those sinful ways that we once walked in. You are not dead to the law though if you continue to live the same sinful ways. That is what some don't understand what dead to the law means

.

Dying to the law means dying to a law of righteousness, that is explained on numerous occasions, something you don't accept

 

[kennethcadwell]

It's so easy to just ream pat statements off the top of your head isn't it!

I wonder how many people on cc would boldly state they obey all of the literal commands of Christ in the Gospels and have therefore got past the milk of the word.

You epitomise the problem Kenneth, pat statements that are not the reality don't help anyone. I should know, I grew up with them.

Round and round we go again, because this all depends once again what you consider a literal command.
We have been through this before because some were not literal things to be done, but the context was about the importance of removing (purging) sin from our lives. Such as when Jesus said if your eye causes you to sin pluck it out, for it is better to enter heaven lame then go to hell with all your members in tact.
Lord Jesus was showing the importance of not letting sins control your life, as you can not serve Him and flesh both.

I did not just state that off the top of my head, as the bible does show this that you must be able to do the first fruits of repentance and baptism to be born again before you are ready to handle the rest. For if you are not born of the Spirit how can you understand spiritual things, you can't which is why the bible says the carnal or minds of the flesh can not understand the knowledge of God given through the Holy Spirit.

 

[michael56]

Round and round we go again, because this all depends once again what you consider a literal command.
We have been through this before because some were not literal things to be done, but the context was about the importance of removing (purging) sin from our lives. Such as when Jesus said if your eye causes you to sin pluck it out, for it is better to enter heaven lame then go to hell with all your members in tact.
Lord Jesus was showing the importance of not letting sins control your life, as you can not serve Him and flesh both.

I did not just state that off the top of my head, as the bible does show this that you must be able to do the first fruits of repentance and baptism to be born again before you are ready to handle the rest. For if you are not born of the Spirit how can you understand spiritual things, you can't which is why the bible says the carnal or minds of the flesh can not understand the knowledge of God given through the Holy Spirit.

This is what you wrote:

If a person is still struggling with keeping the teachings of the Lord in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John which is the milk of the word.

Now I have asked may people who insist all of Christ's commands must be obeyed if they themselves obey them all. So far none have stated ''yes''.

I can only repeat the truth. You ream off pat statements that are not the reality. There is nothing of true value in them

 

[kennethcadwell]

Dying to the law means dying to a law of righteousness, that is explained on numerous occasions, something you don't accept

Show scripture for your understanding, because the bible says the Holy Spirit guides us in righteousness unto salvation.
Even Apostle Paul says righteousness leads to salvation;

Romans 10:10
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

 

[michael56]

Show scripture for your understanding, because the bible says the Holy Spirit guides us in righteousness unto salvation.
Even Apostle Paul says righteousness leads to salvation;

Romans 10:10
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in[SUP][a][/SUP] Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith Phil3:9

For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. [SUP]20 [/SUP]I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. [SUP]21 [/SUP]I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing Gal2:19-21

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
Righteousness Through Faith

[SUP]21 [/SUP]But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. [SUP]22 [/SUP]This righteousness is given through faith in[SUP][h][/SUP] Jesus Christ to all who believe Rom 3:19-22

For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,[SUP][e][/SUP] just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith Rom 1:17

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth rom 10:4

 

[kennethcadwell]

This is what you wrote:

If a person is still struggling with keeping the teachings of the Lord in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John which is the milk of the word.

Now I have asked may people who insist all of Christ's commands must be obeyed if they themselves obey them all. So far none have stated ''yes''.

I can only repeat the truth. You ream off pat statements that are not the reality. There is nothing of true value in them

Maybe who you have come across says no, but then how many actually have the Holy Spirit abiding in them?
Because the bible says with God all things are possible, to those who believe all things are possible, and Paul states I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. Why does the all things part constantly get lost, and what part of the commandments of God with the Holy Spirit's guidance impossible to keep?
Why do some still insist on putting limitations on God's Holy Spirit, and saying He can not do that in us.
Lord Jesus says in the Spirit we can do all things, yet some others still insist we can not. I will take Lord Jesus words over mans, as that is what the bible says. He says obey His teachings over man's..........

 

[michael56]

Maybe who you have come across says no, but then how many actually have the Holy Spirit abiding in them?
Because the bible says with God all things are possible, to those who believe all things are possible, and Paul states I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. Why does the all things part constantly get lost, and what part of the commandments of God with the Holy Spirit's guidance impossible to keep?
Why do some still insist on putting limitations on God's Holy Spirit, and saying He can not do that in us.
Lord Jesus says in the Spirit we can do all things, yet some others still insist we can not. I will take Lord Jesus words over mans, as that is what the bible says. He says obey His teachings over man's..........

Jesus also said

The measure you use to judge others will be used to judge you. So if you do not live up to what your preach/insist of others..........

 

[kennethcadwell]

not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in[SUP][a][/SUP] Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith Phil3:9

For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. [SUP]20 [/SUP]I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. [SUP]21 [/SUP]I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing Gal2:19-21

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
Righteousness Through Faith

[SUP]21 [/SUP]But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. [SUP]22 [/SUP]This righteousness is given through faith in[SUP][h][/SUP] Jesus Christ to all who believe Rom 3:19-22

For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,[SUP][e][/SUP] just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith Rom 1:17

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth rom 10:4

Yes those are all speaking of the law, and says that those who still transgress (sin) are still under the law.
The faith in Christ will have one live in the Spirit of righteousness unto salvation, because once again the fruits of the Spirit will not transgress the laws but uphold them instead.
Which this goes with what I said that if and when you sin you have put yourself back under the law, from there will tell if one's faith is true or not by if they repent/confess of that wrong doing. A born again believer will, and those who are not and love the darkness more then light will not.

 

[michael56]

Yes those are all speaking of the law, and says that those who still transgress (sin) are still under the law.
The faith in Christ will have one live in the Spirit of righteousness unto salvation, because once again the fruits of the Spirit will not transgress the laws but uphold them instead.
Which this goes with what I said that if and when you sin you have put yourself back under the law, from there will tell if one's faith is true or not by if they repent/confess of that wrong doing. A born again believer will, and those who are not and love the darkness more then light will not.

This is not a worthwhile conversation. You need to seek help in your understanding, for you are lost in a world of a law of righteousness, yet you appear not to realise it.

The idea you are not under the law as long as you nigh on perfectly obey the law is nonsensical.

I bid you good day

 

[kennethcadwell]

Jesus also said

The measure you use to judge others will be used to judge you. So if you do not live up to what your preach/insist of others..........

There is a big difference in judging a person and guiding them in the teachings of the Lord.
That once again is one of those lines that constantly gets smeared as people do not know the difference between the two. Not once have I called a person out and judged them on how they act, and told them to change or they are going to hell.
I have taken and pointed out the clear teaching of standards that the Lord and Paul both pointed out to Christ's followers. If you are calling me judgmental then you are saying Paul was judgmental, because he constantly in all of his epistles said how a believer can and can not walk. He constantly showed standards that had to be upheld.
If you want to take away these standards then you end up having everybody in world saved, and that is just completely unbiblical.

Remember the bible clearly says to test all spirits to make sure they are from God, and if they deny Jesus Christ come as God in the flesh, His crucifixion, or His resurrection then it is a false spirit. The Spirit that is in me I know is the Holy Spirit because He does not deny any of the above mentioned.

 

[KJV1611]

No I did not change it to say something completely different..............

If you love, will you covet anothers belongings? No

If you love, will you commit adultery? No

If you love, will you steal from others? No

If you love, will you lie about another? No

And if you love, will you disobey any other commandments given by the Lord? No

This is why Jesus and Paul says love fulfills the law, because as verse 10 that you did not mention, says love will do no wrong. Which is why it fulfills the law, as there is no way to transgress the law (sin) if you are walking in love.

Even Paul said in another place we do not abolish or void the law, we establish it;
Romans 3:31........


New International Version
Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

New Living Translation
Well then, if we emphasize faith, does this mean that we can forget about the law? Of course not! In fact, only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law.

English Standard Version
Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

New American Standard Bible
Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

King James Bible
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Do we then cancel the law through faith? Absolutely not! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

International Standard Version
Do we, then, abolish the Law by this faith? Of course not! Instead, we uphold the Law.

NET Bible
Do we then nullify the law through faith? Absolutely not! Instead we uphold the law.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Are we eliminating The Written Law by faith? God forbid, but we are establishing The Written Law.

You said in an earlier post that Romans 13:9 shows that walking in the fruit of spirit will not transgress the 10 commandments.

That is not going wrong because the Apostle Paul shows in Romans 13:9 that walking in those fruits of the Spirit will not transgress those 10 commandments but uphold them instead. For instance how can one walk in love, and hate others ? You can't because they contradict, just like how can one say the love the Lord but deny to follow His teachings for salvation? Once again you can't as they contradict

Here is Romans 13: 8-9. Show me where those verses say walking in the fruit of the spirit causes a person to not transgress the 10 commandments.

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

 

[kennethcadwell]

This is not a worthwhile conversation. You need to seek help in your understanding, for you are lost in a world of a law of righteousness, yet you appear not to realise it.

The idea you are not under the law as long as you nigh on perfectly obey the law is nonsensical.

I bid you good day

I am not lost in it because the bible clearly says the law was set for that purpose, for those who continue to transgress against God by living a sinful lifestyle. The law is not for those who walk according to God's will, that walk by the Spirit and not by the flesh.

 

[kennethcadwell]

You said in an earlier post that Romans 13:9 shows that walking in the fruit of spirit will not transgress the 10 commandments.



Here is Romans 13: 8-9. Show me where those verses say walking in the fruit of the spirit causes a person to not transgress the 10 commandments.

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Romans 13:10

Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.


You can not continue to leave off verse 10 that goes with this passage, that clearly shows love which is the greatest fruit of the Spirit fulfills the law by not doing any wrong to others. Meaning no transgressing the law, as anytime a person transgresses the law they are doing wrong to others. Sin is the opposite of love, you can not say you love and hate a person both that is contradictory.

 

[KJV1611]

Romans 13:10

Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.


You can not continue to leave off verse 10 that goes with this passage, that clearly shows love which is the greatest fruit of the Spirit fulfills the law by not doing any wrong to others. Meaning no transgressing the law, as anytime a person transgresses the law they are doing wrong to others. Sin is the opposite of love, you can not say you love and hate a person both that is contradictory.

You're ditching the question. Show me where those verses say walking in the fruit of the spirit causes a person to not transgress the 10 commandments.... verse 10 is included.

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

 

[dcontroversal]

This is not a worthwhile conversation. You need to seek help in your understanding, for you are lost in a world of a law of righteousness, yet you appear not to realise it.

The idea you are not under the law as long as you nigh on perfectly obey the law is nonsensical.

I bid you good day

No doubt.....what amazes me is by his very stance on that verse every time one sins they are under the law and if under the law they are under the condemnation of the law......saved, sin, under the law, under the condemnation of the law, lost, repent, saved, sin, under the law, under the condemnation of the law, lost, repent, saved, sin, under the law, under the condemnation of the law, lost, repent, saved etc.

My bible teaches clearly that those why have trusted into Christ have had the condemnation of the law REMOVED and the RIGHTEOUSNESS of GOD without the LAW has been IMPUTED unto the genuine believer......

The view he portrays is a continual cycle of saved, lost, saved, lost, saved, lost, saved, lost over and over and over again......but of course he will deny sin under the banner of (messed up) or (slipped up)........or he don't sin.....!

Originally Posted by kennethcadwell

Yes those are all speaking of the law, and says that those who still transgress (sin) are still under the law.

 

[Stephen63]

Let's look at Romans 13:8-9 and see if what you say is true.

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Owe no man nothing, just love him. If you do this, you have fulfilled the law. Note: It does not say obeying the 10 commandments fulfilled the law.

Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Fulfilling the law (i.e. Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet and all other commandments) is briefly summed up as Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

Did you catch that? Romans 13:9 says exactly the same thing Romans 13:8 says. Fulfilling the law is briefly summed up as Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

You changed Romans 13:9 say something totally different than what it actually says. You're being led by the idol shepherd Kenneth. The idol shepherd had his right eye put out, he can't see grace... even when it's written plainly in Romans 13:9. You have taken the grace of God (love your neighbor fulfills the law) and changed it into law keeping.

And just exactly HOW do you love your neighbor as yourself..... by telling him? By saying it? By shaking his hand at church? HOW do you prove it?

 

[KJV1611]

And just exactly HOW do you love your neighbor as yourself..... by telling him? By saying it? By shaking his hand at church? HOW do you prove it?

I guess you could tell him, but I like to do things for my neighbors. I have chickens, and I give one of my elderly neighbors chicken eggs every week because he loves them. My other neighbor doesn't live on her 2 acres so I cut her grass with my bush hog. Now I must admit that every time I cut her grass, I covet that property. It's a beautiful piece of land that borders mine and I would really like to buy it from her but she doesn't want to sell.

I also lied to my elderly neighbor the other day. He tried to give me some money to help pay for chicken feed so I lied and told him that some of the other people that I give eggs to were giving me plenty of money to cover the feed... they actually aren't giving me any money though.

How do you love your neighbor?

 

[Stephen63]

Jesus also said

The measure you use to judge others will be used to judge you. So if you do not live up to what your preach/insist of others..........

I can't believe you just fixed your mouth to say that......

I mean, after all, WHO is surrounding KC like a pack of wolves, accusing him at every turn for the last 3-4 pages?

WHO has been name-calling KC?

WHO has been labeling him as a false teacher, a twister of the Word, & several others?

You guys don't see it yet, but you let your true colors show by treating KC so bad. Yep....

You also forget a lot of people take the side of the underdog in situations like this.

I'm sure by now most readers are wondering how KC can take all this heat without losing it..... The Holy Spirit, of course.

The very scripture you ignored is what is showing who the false & the true are........

Matthew 7:15-29 (KJV) [SUP]15 [/SUP]Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? [SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. [SUP]18 [/SUP]A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. [SUP]20[/SUP]Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.


Now, let's finish this post out with the rest of the scripture that talks about do-nothing faith:

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? [SUP]23 [/SUP]And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: [SUP]25 [/SUP]And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: [SUP]27 [/SUP]And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. [SUP]28 [/SUP]And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine: [SUP]29 [/SUP]For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

 

[Stephen63]

I guess you could tell him, but I like to do things for my neighbors. I have chickens, and I give one of my elderly neighbors chicken eggs every week because he loves them. My other neighbor doesn't live on her 2 acres so I cut her grass with my bush hog. Now I must admit that every time I cut her grass, I covet that property. It's a beautiful piece of land that borders mine and I would really like to buy it from her but she doesn't want to sell.

I also lied to my elderly neighbor the other day. He tried to give me some money to help pay for chicken feed so I lied and told him that some of the other people that I give eggs to were giving me plenty of money to cover the feed... they actually aren't giving me any money though.

How do you love your neighbor?

By doing good things for them, of course. That's the point. You can't love without works, neither can you believe the truth without walking in it. It requires works, no matter how you slice it.

Revelation 14:13 (KJV) And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.