People think you have to keep grace on a leash

[Jason0047]

You cannot keep the law that says "Thou shalt love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind soul and strength and your neighbor as yourself."
It seems easy but we continually fail...that is where grace covers (not excuses) our shortcomings.
We are totally 100% dependent upon God's grace.

The difference between what we believe on this point is that OSAS says it does excuse sin. It promotes immorality because it says no sin can separate you from God. So it removes the consequences of how a believer should live before God. Under the OSAS belief: A believer doesn't have to strive to live right and live for God and they are saved and going to Heaven (Despite the evil that they do with no actual remorse). In other words, a believer can be in sin and be right with God. That is an excuse for sin! They can be evil and yet be labeled as good.

But the believer who obeys what God's Word says plainly will never make an excuse for sin. They will repent and confess of their sin and forsake it with God's help. They do not hold onto their sin thinking it is forgiven them (Giving themselves and other people the impression that they are not sorrowful over their sin within their life --- making them no different than an unbeliever in time because sin can corrupt a person like a cancer). For the person who confesses and seeks to forsake sin is striving for the prize of Jesus Christ and seeking to be with Him and they are not making excuses to hold onto their sin. For a person cannot serve two masters. For they will hate the one and love the other. In other words, a person makes their life known by how they live. Are they living in a way that shows they love God? Or they living in such a way that shows they actually love their sin more? For Jesus said we will know a false prophet by their fruits. What are the fruits of the Spirit? Should they not be evident in a believer's life? They should be if they are sealed with the Holy Spirit. If not, then they need to examine whether or not Christ is within them or not.

 

[Jason0047]

You cannot keep the law that says "Thou shalt love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind soul and strength and your neighbor as yourself."
It seems easy but we continually fail...that is where grace covers (not excuses) our shortcomings.
We are totally 100% dependent upon God's grace.

Also, you are right. You cannot keep the Law of loving God and loving your neighbor yourself. No man can do that on their own. Hence, why we need Jesus Christ. For not only does Jesus justify us by faith in order to bring us into a right relationship with Him, but Jesus also sanctifies us by living in our hearts and lives and He is the One who helps us to love God the Father and all other people (Including our enemies). For the disciples were amazed at who could be saved when the young rich ruler left. But Jesus told them that with man this is impossible; But with God, all things are possible. Meaning, salvation is worked thru a believer's life by that person allowing God and His sanctfying work to flow thru their lives. For Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. Not just in Justification and Glorification, but in Sanctificaton, too. But we have to yield to God and the work He desires to do thru us, though. We fight against that and we are rebelling against God.

 

[Jason0047]

well according to this defenition. no one would ever be saved.

Because your list is too short. you better name every sin according to the law. not just your pet few sins.

Well, just look at the heroes of faith in the Bible and they did not live unrighteous lives as a way of life. Yes, they were not perfect and they messed up at times. But they did not stay down within the mud of their sin; Nor were they characterized by living unrighteously or evil, either.

Yes, we are not under the Law of Moses anymore, but certain moral laws from the Old Covenant have carried over into the New Covenant. Granted, we are not saved by a set of rules alone in and of themselves. For if I do wrong, I do not go out and do more good works to offset a sin so as to be saved. We are saved by what Jesus did on the cross. So I confess to Him, if I do sin (Which is a Biblical practice --- 1 John 2:1; 1 John 1:9). For He is our Heavenly High Priest and or Advocate between God the Father. For the Scriptures say that He is forever alive to make intercession for us. Jesus is my priest. He is the One I go to if things are not right. I do not act like He is not there and think He is got my back any time I might potentially sin or fall. No, no. That would be trying to cover and hide sin within my life and it would be making an excuse for sin.

 

[Jason0047]

Amen sis, Legalists like Jason will never understand this, until they see the sin in their own lives.

God is against sin (or the transgression of the Law). For sin is what put Jesus Christ on the cross. God is not going to allow a person to get away with unrepentant sin because they have a belief on Him. Believers do not make excuses for sin. They are sorrowful over sin and strive to forsake sin with God's help striving to be perfect as their Heavenly Father is perfect. Does this mean that some believers will not struggle with sin? No. But does this mean there are no believers who have not crucified the affections and lusts? Again, no (See Galatians 5:24).

Also, Paul says he establishes the Law. Not the Law of Moses but the Law of Christ. The law of love (Which comes from God because God is love). For Paul says if we love our neighbor we will not covet, steal, murder, etc. (See Romans 13). So no, the fact that I am in support of God's commands under the New Testament does not make me a Legalist. For how can God be against what He has established? Anyways, a Legalist is someone who looks to the Law alone and leaves God out of the program of salvation (When in reality it is God who does all the saving in Justification, Sanctification, and Glorification if we simply yield to Him). We cannot be anarchists or even partial anarchists against God. For we know that anyone who has rebelled or sinned against God and continues to do so was not blessed but cursed. In fact, the Scriptures say Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil. This would include sin in a person's life.

 

[ChristInUs]

Too many people use grace to condone their sin. Grace is not a licensee to sin. Yeah I know while your doing your friends wife you say I'm under grace. The devil is liar.

 

[Jason0047]

Find me one person who never sins- like ever not even once

His name was Jesus

He was called the Christ

He was hung on a tree.

Yes, I already thought this before you said it. However, if we truly have Christ living within us, then the works of Christ will be evident within our lives. We would hate evil and love that which is good and never make an excuse for sin (Just like Jesus).

 

[Jason0047]

Christ was the perfect example of this.

He drank with sinners, ate with sinners, did not judge sinners, and was even called a sinner.

if he was here today, people like jason would condemn him also. because he vomits their legalism out of his mouth, and would condemn them also. just like he did the pharisee.

Jesus said he came as a physician as to the reason why he was around sinners. Meaning, he was not hanging around them as a means of condoning their sinful lifestyle, but He was among them to heal them of the sickness of their sins (That has gripped their lives).

Uh, and no. I would not condemn Jesus if He was here physically amongst us today. How can I be against anyone who does that which is good and right by the Scriptures? For Jesus was in perfect obedience to Scripture all the time. Actually, it is the OSAS proponent today who would be against Jesus because they think they can get away with sin with the thinking they are saved. Yet, Jesus never condoned anyone to sin. As a matter of fact, the OSAS proponent today is a perfect description of the Pharisees. They obeyed certain laws to look good in front of others, but they ignored weightier matters of the law like Justice, Love, and Mercy. They thought they were saved just because they were God's children (i.e. the Jews).

 

[Jason0047]

Radd did not suggest we go forth and live out such decadence. Brother, I fear you live in bondage; lust, hate and debauchery are at the center of your thought processes rather than magnificent gift of saving grace in Jesus Christ.

My life is not ruled by hate or bondage and evil things. They are not at the center of my life. I seek to love God and to love others always. I am at peace with God and His love within my life. I do not make excuses for sin, though (Like many (not all) OSAS proponents). If there is an issue standing between me and God it gets resolved by going to Him to cleanse me of it. I do not hold onto sin or act like it is not there or think it is forgiven automatically when it is not. For when we wrong another, the natural thing we first should do is to say we are sorry and to let them know we are not going to do that wrong thing again.

 

[ChristInUs]

My life is not ruled by hate or bondage and evil things. They are not at the center of my life. I seek to love God and to love others always. I am at peace with God and His love within my life. I do not make excuses for sin, though (Like many (not all) OSAS proponents). If there is an issue standing between me and God it gets resolved by going to Him to cleanse me of it. I do not hold onto sin or act like it is not there or think it is forgiven automatically when it is not. For when we wrong another, the natural thing we first should do is to say we are sorry and to let them know we are not going to do that wrong thing again.

How do you go to Him I wonder?

 

[Jason0047]

Radd did not suggest we go forth and live out such decadence. .

Radd said, I quote:

"Christ followers is to enjoy looking down on others in their ignorance and disobedience so that we feel informed and obedient before God."​

This means that he is in support of other believers disobeying God or His Word. Yes, he is willing to admit murder is wrong. Very good. Even unbelievers know murder is wrong. But to say that we can disobey implies that a believer can get away with sin which is debauchery or rebellion against God.

 

[Jason0047]

How do you go to Him I wonder?

We already been over this before. 1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9 in prayer. Christ forgives us and cleanses us of unrighteousness if we go to our advocate to confess our sins to Him. For who was more justified in the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee? The man who cried out to God to have mercy on his sins? Or was it the man who thought he was better than the Tax Collector and did not confess his faults before God?

 

[ChristInUs]

Jason how do you get to God?

 

[Jason0047]

Jason how do you get to God?

Well, a true believer has God living within them, but they pray to he Lord so as to communicate to Him. When I say a believer goes to God when they sin, they confess their sin to God and they forsake it with His help. Hence, why Jesus told His disciples to pray so as not to be led into temptation. A true believer does not practice sin as a way of life. I would say that is a reality for my life. Both 1 John 2:1; 1 John 1:9 and praying so as not to be led into temptation; And not sinning habitually as a way of life or walking after the flesh. Jesus (Second person of the Godhead) is our mediator between God the Father and mankind. He is our Heavenly High Priest that we talk with.

 

[Jason0047]

How do you get to God?

 

[Jason0047]

It is evident you have no understanding of grace. If you did, you would not suggest salvation is conditional.

You mean OSAS Grace that cannot be found in the Bible. For here is a...

Long List of Verses Refuting OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved):
(Which indeed shows that Salvation is Conditional):

• Matthew 7:21-23 - Jesus only “knows” those who do Father God’s will; all others are practicing lawlessness.

• Matthew 10:33 - Whoever denies Jesus before men He will also deny before His Father in heaven.

• Matthew 12:31-32 - Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven. This means verbally cursing or speaking bad about the Holy Spirit.

• Matthew 13:18-23 - 2 people types (no root, unfruitful) come to eternal life, and then return to the lost state.

• Matthew 18:21-35, Mark 11:25-26 - Forgive men’s sins against you, or God won’t forgive your sins against Him.

• Matthew 25:44-46 - Those who do not help even one needy soul will go into everlasting punishment.

• Mark 8:35-36 - Whoever desires to save his (old) life, or gain the whole world, will lose his soul.

• Mark 9:43-48 - Get rid of whatever causes you to sin; it will cause you to be cast into hell fire.

• Mark 13:13 - But he who endures with his faith to the end (of his life) shall be saved eternally (Also see Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Colossians 1:22-23, 1 Timothy 4:16, Hebrews 10:35-39, Revelation 2:10)

• Luke 9:23-25 - Whoever does not deny himself for Jesus’ sake will be destroyed (eternal death).

• Luke 14:26-33 - Jesus warns prospective believers how difficult and costly it is to be His disciple… will they have enough to finish this life of placing Him above all else, bearing their crosses, etc.?

• Luke 18:9-14 - Jesus taught that the man who was more justified was the one who humbled himself and cried out to God for mercy before God vs. the man who did not do so.

• John 3:19, 20 - An important point about "The Condemnation" is that those who loved darkness hate the Light because they loved the pleasure of their own evil deeds, unless of course their deeds should be reproved (that is).

• John 12:25 - He who loves his life in this world will lose it (eternal life) later.

• John 15:1-6 - Christians who do not bear fruit (are not abiding in Jesus) are thrown into the fire.

• John 17:3 - Eternal life is actually “knowing” Father God and Jesus Christ. Do you really know them?

• Romans 1:29-32 - Anyone practicing such sins is deserving of death due to God’s wrath on unrighteousness.

• Romans 2:5-11 - Wrath is coming to those who are unrighteously self-seeking and do not obey the truth.

• Rom 6:15-23 - Be a slave of God and to righteousness for holiness, resulting in holiness and eternal life.

• Romans 8:1-8 - Anyone who is carnally-minded (is living according to the flesh) will die spiritually.

• Romans 8:12-13 - We are not debtors to the flesh; if we live according to the flesh, we will die.

• Romans 11:20-22 - Fear unbelief, that if you do not continue to have faith, you will be cut off like the OT Jews.

• 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - Anyone practicing such sins is unrighteous, and will not inherit the kingdom of God.

• 1 Corinthians 15:2 - You are saved, if you hold fast to that word (the gospel) … unless you believed in vain.

• 2 Corinthians 7:10 - Godly sorrow over sin leads Christians to repent, which leads to salvation.

• 2 Corinthians 13:5 - Examine and test yourself to see if you are in the faith, unless you are disqualified.

• Galatians 5:1-4 - Christians are warned: those who later have attempted to be justified by law, … have been estranged from Christ and have fallen from grace.

• Galatians 5:19-21 - Anyone practicing such sins (the works of the flesh) will not inherit the kingdom of God.

• Galatians 5:24 - Those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

• Galatians 6:7-8 - Don't be deceived: sowing to the flesh reaps corruption, sowing to the Spirit reaps eternal life.

• Ephesians 5:3-6 - Believers practicing such sins will not inherit God’s kingdom, but will incur the wrath of God.

• Ephesians 5:25-27 - Jesus gave Himself for a glorious Church which will be sanctified, holy, without blemish.

• Philippians 2:12-16 - Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, holding fast the word of life …
  … so that: (1) you may become blameless, and (2) Paul did not labor in vain concerning you.

• Philippians 3:7-14 - Paul presses on to attaining the goal of gaining Christ, knowing Him, and being found in Him.

• Colossians 1:21-29 - Jesus’ desires (and Paul labors to warn and teach) to present “holy and blameless” and “perfect in Christ Jesus” those who continue in faith, not moved away from the hope of the gospel.

• Colossians 3:5-6 - Believers practicing such sins beware: the wrath of God will come upon sons of disobedience.

• 1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith.

• 1 Timothy 5:11-15 - Some younger widows are condemned; they cast off their first faith and turned after Satan.

• 1 Timothy 6:3-4 - Paul says that if any man teaches contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine of Christ is proud knowing nothing.

• 1 Timothy 6:9-14 - Greed and love of money drowns men in destruction and perdition; Instead, pursue godliness and lay hold on eternal life (and keep this command without blame).

• 1 Timothy 6:17-19 - Commands for the rich (yes, Christians) to follow, so they may lay hold on eternal life.

• Titus 1:1-3 - Faith and knowledge of the truth lead to godliness, in the hope of eternal life.

• Hebrews 2:1-4 - Warning about drifting away: how shall we escape, if we drift and neglect so great a salvation?

• Hebrews 3:6 - We belong to Christ, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

• Hebrews 3:12-15 - Beware of an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God, being hardened through the deceitfulness of sin, for we are only partakers of Christ if we hold steadfast to the end.

• Hebrews 3:17-19 - The OT Jews who sinned (did not obey) could not enter into God’s rest (the Promised Land).

• Hebrews 4:1 - Let us fear lest any of us come short of entering God’s rest (God’s promise of salvation).

• Hebrews 4:11 - Be diligent to enter into that rest, lest anyone fall according to the OT example of disobedience.

• Hebrews 6:4-8 - Those enlightened and partakers of the Holy Spirit who fall away will be rejected and burned.

• Hebrews 10:26-27 - If we sin willfully after receiving knowledge of the truth, expect God’s fiery judgment.

• Hebrews 10:29-31 - The Lord will judge His people. “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay”, says the Lord.

• Hebrews 10:35-39 - Endure in the faith, and do not be like those who draw back to perdition.

• Hebrews 12:14-15 - Pursue holiness (w/o which no one will see the Lord) lest anyone falls short of God’s grace.

• Hebrews 12:15-17 - Many believers become defiled, and finding no place for repentance, are rejected.

• James 1:12-16 - Love the Lord, endure temptation to sin; do not be deceived, sin results in spiritual death.

• 1 Peter 1:8-9 - Believing, you will receive the end of your (enduring) faith—the salvation of your souls.

• 2 Peter 1:10-11 - Be diligent to make your call & election sure, so you won’t stumble, but gain the kingdom.

• 2 Peter 2:1, 14 - The false prophets (i.e. believers) are those who have eyes full of adultery and cannot cease from sin.

• 2 Peter 2:20-22 - If Christians are overcome by worldly sins, they are worse off than they were before knowing the way of righteousness, they turned from the holy commandment delivered to them.

• 1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, God will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

• 1 John 2:3-5 - We are sure that we “know” God and are “in” Him, if we keep His commandments.

• 1 John 2:24-25 - If God’s word does not abide in us, the Father and the Son will not abide in us, nor we in Them, and we will not receive the promised eternal life.

• 1 John 3:15 - If you hate your brother, you’re like a murderer who has no eternal life abiding in him.

• Jude 1:4 NIV - There are those false believers who turn the grace of our God into a license for immorality

• Jude 1:20-21 - 3 things for Christians to do, while looking for God’s mercy unto eternal life.

• Revelation 2:10 - Be faithful until death and Jesus will give you the crown of (eternal) life (Also see Mark 13:13above).

• Revelation 2:11 - He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death (eternal death).

• Revelation 3:5 - He who overcomes will not have his name blotted out from the Book of Life.

• Revelation 14:9-11 - Those that worship the Beast and take his mark drink of the wine of the Wrath of God and will be thrown in the Lake of Fire.

• Revelation 21:8 - Anyone practicing such sins will go into the lake of fire, which is the second death.

• Revelation 21:27 - Anyone practicing such sins is not in the Book of Life, and will not enter the New Jerusalem.

• Revelation 22:14 - Anyone who does not do God’s commandments does not have the right to the tree of life.

• Revelation 22:15 - Anyone practicing such sins will be outside the gates of the New Jerusalem.

• Revelation 22:18 - If any man takes away from the prophecy of the book (i.e. the Scriptures), God will take away their name out of the Book of Life.

Source Used:
Your handy-dandy long list of verses against OSAS - BaptistBoard.com

 

[ChristInUs]

Well, a true believer has God living within them, but they pray to he Lord so as to communicate to Him. When I say a believer goes to God when they sin, they confess their sin to God and they forsake it with His help. Hence, why Jesus told His disciples to pray so as not to be led into temptation. A true believer does not practice sin as a way of life. I would say that is a reality for my life. Both 1 John 2:1; 1 John 1:9 and praying so as not to be led into temptation; And not sinning habitually as a way of life or walking after the flesh. Jesus (Second person of the Godhead) is our mediator between God the Father and mankind. He is our Heavenly High Priest that we talk with.

wait you are OSAS then why do we sin and as for your way to God it is false. Man can only get to God by the means of the cross and nothing else.

 

[Jason0047]

Most Christians have failed to udnerstand that righteousness is position not personal performance.

Salvation is a "Surrendering to God" (Whereby they repent of their sins and accept Christ according to His Word). It is not a "Position" that allows one to sin and still be saved and neither is it a "Performance" where one just does a certain set of rules in and of itself.

 

[Jason0047]

wait you are OSAS

No, I am not for OSAS. I believe a person can fall away just like in the Parable of the Sower. For some fell away due to cares and the riches of this life and some fell away due to persecution. For the devil did not succeed in taking the seed away from their heart when they received it so they were believers who were regenerated.

then why do we sin

Not all believers sin. They certainly do not all sin as a way of life. Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts.

and as for your way to God it is false.

Well, unless you believe the Bible is false, 1 John 2:1 and 1 John 1:9 is in your Bible last time I checked.

Man can only get to God by the means of the cross and nothing else.

The cross is just the method chosen by which Christ died. In and of itself the cross is nothing but wood. It is Jesus who died and shed His blood that allows us to be forgiven of sin, and it is His resurrection that allows us to be renewed spiritually by the Spirit. For it is His mercy and the regeneration of the Holy Ghost as to why we are saved and not of works (Titus 3:5; Ephesians 2:8-9). But we then allow God to continue within our lives. We yield to Him and allow Him to work thru us. If not, then we are in effect saying we do not want Him and His goodness within our lives; And one cannot have salvation or life without God (See 1 John 5:12).

 

[MultilingualMessenger]

wait you are OSAS then why do we sin and as for your way to God it is false. Man can only get to God by the means of the cross and nothing else.

Because we mess up sometimes. But there's a difference between messing up sometimes and repenting for it, and practicing unrepentant sin. I think that's what Jason0047 was getting at.

 

[Jason0047]

Because we mess up sometimes. But there's a difference between messing up sometimes and repenting for it, and practicing unrepentant sin. I think that's what Jason0047 was getting at.

Yes, thank you for clarifying that sister.

May God bless you.