The Unanswerable Questions (Extended)

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sparkman

Guest
Here's another one that would have been good for the list:

If Jesus came to change the law of God, why does Daniel 7:25 say the one who will actually try to do this will be the anti-christ?

He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time. (Daniel 7:25)

Funny, isn't it? :) When the ignorant and unstable say that Jesus Christ changed God's law (which he didn't), they're actually accusing him of the very thing his enemy will do. It's amazing how discieved the world is.

This great dragon--the ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, the one deceiving the whole world--was thrown down to the earth with all his angels. (revelation 12:9)

I'd like to see conclusive evidence regarding the interpretation being applied to this verse.
 
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sparkman

Guest
Satan is not able to thwart God in any way. God uses him like a puppet to accomplish His will. Read the book of Job.
 
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sparkman

Guest
Daniel 7: The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.[SUP]24 [/SUP]And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.


Who are the ten horns who precede the small horn, who changes times?
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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See the Scriptures I refer to above.

The Sabbath was most certainly an identifying sign of the Old Covenant, as was circumcision. Both identified a person as a member of the Old Covenant. Circumcision was the one-time entry sign, and Sabbath was the continuing, "remembrance" sign.
Let me clarify so there's no confusion (and this is why I made a distinction between terms in my post). My emphasis is on the words "Old" and "Covenant". The Sabbath is not sign of the "Old Covenant" (between God and Israel), but a sign of who God's people are and to identify who our God is.


Ezekiel 20:19-20

'I am Yah your God; walk in My statutes and keep My ordinances and observe them. 20' Sanctify My Sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between Me and you, that you may know that I am Yah your God.'


Note this verse. He says The sabbath is a sign that we may know that he is "Yah" our God.

Remember that the many nations of the world served many gods with many names. And even today, notice how many religions call their deity the same name/title ("god"). But *our* Father's intention was to set himself apart as the one true God, as well as set apart those who profess to follow and believe in him. The Sabbath is that sign of separation; the true Hebraic meaning of the word Kodesh ("Set apart", "Holy"). This is why the sabbath was established as a sign LONG before our Father entered into a covenant with Israel...as far back as the 7th day of Creation (in Genesis).

This is specifically the reason why the Sabbath is the only commandment that (as you point out) has no moral implication. It's because it's the one specifically meant to show from whose crew you rep (lol). Yah Almighty's...as he takes us back in memorial to the very day he sanctified the 7th and rested from his work. Only he did that. No other false god did that.


Next, circumcision wasn't a sign of the covenant between "God and Israel". It was a sign of the covenant between "God and Abraham". Completely different covenant than the one made with God and Israel.

The Covenant between God and Abraham was regarding "Abraham's promised seed and the land God promised him". Meanwhile, the Covenant between God and Israel was as follows:

"If you will obey my commandments I will makes you a nation of Priests...my unique treasure on the earth."

These are not the same covenants labeled "The Old Covenant"...but they have and do play a part together since Israel was of Abraham's descendants. God honored his promise to Abraham when he guided Israel to their promised land. But then he made another covenant with them so they would be his priests to the world.

In his (then) new agreement with Israel, he emphasized that he would circumcise their hearts to love him with every ounce of their being. Then later on Christ said the greatest commandment is (in fact) to love God with every once of one's being, which directly ties it to the Father's "circumcision of heart". Thus to love God with one's everything is to be circumcised by God. This is why I say and Paul says circumcision still exists (just spiritual).


In addition, the word Law most certainly does refer to the Old Covenant in some places.

As I note in the other answers, the Old Covenant was between God and Israel. We are not parties to that covenant. The Sabbath was the sign of that covenant, along with circumcision. The Old Covenant was only in place until Christ came. See Galatians 3. It no longer applies to anyone now. And neither does the Sabbath because it was part of that covenant. The Sabbath is not a moral absolute like the other 9 commandments. The New Covenant involves much higher demands including loving others like Christ loved them.
I agree. The covenant (which I will coin the "nation of priests" covenant) was between God and Israel and no one but Israel is a party to that covenant. However, the covenant wasn't made *until* Christ came, rather Christ re-instituted that covenant through new testament (i.e. testimony/witness) in his blood, making the "old" covenant "new" (as in "Brand spanking new") and everlasting (as in "forever and ever").

You see prior to Christ, notice as soon as Israel sinned and broke the covenant it was never actually fulfilled. Israel was never a nation of priests to anyone. They never spread the message of God to the nations of the earth. Everything was on pause. Israel was in a black hole regarding that promise until that nation could be restored. God doesn't go back on his promise; Israel was supposed to be the nation of Priests to take his name to the world...no other nation.

So with Christ as the facilitator of the restoration and with his rightful claim as King, Christ IS Israel. And anyone who is grafted into Christ is part of the same body. As Paul says there is one body. And as the Book of Numbers says there is one law for the native and stranger grafted in (Num 15:16).

More to the point, notice that the covenant promise that God makes in Exodus (for Israel to be a nation of priests), is the *same exact* promise that Peter declares to the reader in the new testament, which is the same exact promise fulfilled in the book of Revelation at the end of days for those who "overcome".


Exodus 19:5-6

"'Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine; you will be (future tense) for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites."


1 Peter 2:9

"But you are (present tense) a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light."


Revelation 1:6

"and has made us (past tense) to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father--to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen."


It's the same covenant, past, present and future.
 
Apr 25, 2015
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Compare these 2 verses:

You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. (John 8:44)

All your words are true; all your righteous laws are eternal. (Psalm 119:160)

 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
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Elwood,

I do not know of anyone on this forum who will argue against the eternal and righteous character of the LAW.

We are ALL persuaded of that!

Our disagreement is with the notion that the 'righteousness of the Law can be obtained by our attempts to obey it.

Ro 8:1-4
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
KJV

Scripture clearly informs us that the righteousness of the Law is imparted NOT BY OBEYING THE LAW; WHICH WE ARE UNABLE TO DO; but by faith in Jssus provision for our sin(s), ALONE.

The Law is indeed righteous but is unable to impart righteousness.
 
Jul 27, 2011
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i have a couple questions. Why do some call resting on the Sabbath works? Why is it said keeping the Law is impossible, when Jesus said all things are possible with the Father?
 
Apr 25, 2015
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I know Marc. I've already heard all manner of excuses for not obeying the law.

"It can't make you righteous, so why obey it?" "Jesus fulfilled it" "We are not under law but under grace"

That's what lukewarm christians do. They make up excuses instead of just listening to God. I don't follow the torah to be called righteous. It's just about making God happy, and being obedient.

Whoever says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. (1 John 2:4)
 
Apr 25, 2015
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i have a couple questions. Why do some call resting on the Sabbath works? Why is it said keeping the Law is impossible, when Jesus said all things are possible with the Father?
Good question. When you recieve the holy spirit, the scriptures say that it rights God's law in your heart, and causes you to obey him. Wanting to persue the commandments is just a natural part of being saved.

"This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds." (Hebrews 10:16)

The discieved think that the "new covenant" is all about throwing away God's laws. When in fact, it's just the opposite.
 
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sparkman

Guest
Good question. When you recieve the holy spirit, the scriptures say that it rights God's law in your heart, and causes you to obey him. Wanting to persue the commandments is just a natural part of being saved.

"This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds." (Hebrews 10:16)

The discieved think that the "new covenant" is all about throwing away God's laws. When in fact, it's just the opposite.
The laws are different. The equivalent of the Ten Commandments is the Sermon on the Mount.

The Old Covenant is clearly done away with.
 
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sparkman

Guest
i have a couple questions. Why do some call resting on the Sabbath works? Why is it said keeping the Law is impossible, when Jesus said all things are possible with the Father?
Why do Sabbathkeepers try to enforce the Old Covenant upon Gentiles who were never a part of it to start with?
 
Apr 25, 2015
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^ There's another common error: Thinking that God would give different commandments to Israel and the Church instead of expecting them both to observe the same commandments.

When you truly receive the holy spirit and become a christian, you are "grafted in" to Israel, and become a spiritual decsendent of Abraham. There's no dispensation. Notice:

If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Galatians 3:29)

There is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, (Romans 10:12)

 
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phil112

Guest
reserved for future questions
If you're 22 why are you causing division this early? You can find answers for any questions, without being confrontational, here, yet you posted several times without answer.
I suspect you are not your age posted, and until you prove that, you are a liar on this board. Where do you live? what is your address? Do you want to live for Christ? Would you die for Him?
This is a bible room and deception is frowned upon.
 
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sparkman

Guest
Let me clarify so there's no confusion (and this is why I made a distinction between terms in my post). My emphasis is on the words "Old" and "Covenant". The Sabbath is not sign of the "Old Covenant" (between God and Israel), but a sign of who God's people are and to identify who our God is.


Ezekiel 20:19-20

'I am Yah your God; walk in My statutes and keep My ordinances and observe them. 20' Sanctify My Sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between Me and you, that you may know that I am Yah your God.'


Note this verse. He says The sabbath is a sign that we may know that he is "Yah" our God.

Remember that the many nations of the world served many gods with many names. And even today, notice how many religions call their deity the same name/title ("god"). But *our* Father's intention was to set himself apart as the one true God, as well as set apart those who profess to follow and believe in him. The Sabbath is that sign of separation; the true Hebraic meaning of the word Kodesh ("Set apart", "Holy"). This is why the sabbath was established as a sign LONG before our Father entered into a covenant with Israel...as far back as the 7th day of Creation (in Genesis).
Firstly, I am an ex Sabbathkeeper so I am aware of what Scripture teaches on this issue. If I thought the Sabbath and Holy Days still applied, I'd keep them. They do not apply, and neither does the Old Covenant, except where there are moral absolutes such as the 9 other commandments.

1. The Scriptures you quoted selectively say clearly that the Sabbath was a sign between God and ancient Israel. Who
was God speaking to in those verses? He was speaking to ancient Israel. Read also Exodus 31:16-17 to see that
the Sabbath was a sign for ancient Israel that they were under the Old Covenant.
2. There is no evidence that any human kept the Sabbath until Exodus 16. Any assertion you make in this regard is
an argument from silence. Show me a Scripture if you want to assert otherwise. God ceased creating on the seventh
day, but there is no evidence that any human kept the Sabbath before Exodus 16.
3. Can you truly say that you are pronouncing God's personal name correctly? No...the vowels have been lost. So, the whole
Holy Name assertions have no value. They are simply another one of many things that people like to promote to make
themselves look holier than other people. Same with the Sabbath and the Holy Days for many. And, to be honest, it
makes them look foolish to proclaim their superiority based on such things.

Next, circumcision wasn't a sign of the covenant between "God and Israel". It was a sign of the covenant between "God and Abraham". Completely different covenant than the one made with God and Israel.

I am aware that the Abrahamic Covenant is a separate covenant. The sign wasn't just a sign between God and Abraham; it was a sign between Abraham's descendants as well.

Circumcision, however, was co-opted into the Old Covenant. Leviticus 13 specifies the need for an Israelite to be circumcised. Not only that, but it also was a sign associated with the Old Covenant. Galatians 5:1-4 points to this. Paul basically says in these verses that circumcision was part of the Law.

I am not sure if you are saying that the Old Covenant is still in effect or not. If you are, you are contradicting Scriptures which I referred to earlier.

See these Scriptures. Study them. Then come back and present your case.

The Old Covenant was an agreement between God and the nation of Israel (Ex. 31:12-17). The Ten Commandments are a summary of the Old Covenant (Ex 31:18, 34:28; Deut 4:13, 9:9, 11). The Old Covenant is no longer in effect for anyone (2 Cor 3:4-18, Gal 3:17-25, Heb 8:13-9:4). The Sabbath, therefore, is not in effect for anyone (Gal 4:10, Rom 14:5-6, Col 2:16-17). Christians are under the New Covenant, which has higher demands and different commandments (Luke 22:20, Heb 9:15; Jn 13:34, 15:12, 17; Rom 13:10). The chief of those commandments is to love others as Christ loved us (Jn 13:34).
The Sabbath was a sign of the Old Covenant between God and Israel (Ex. 31:16-17). A sign is an identifying mark, and the Sabbath identified the nation of Israel as distinct from the other nations. Christians are not parties to the Old Covenant, which was between God and Israel.
 
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sparkman

Guest
^ There's another common error: Thinking that God would give different commandments to Israel and the Church instead of expecting them both to observe the same commandments.

When you truly receive the holy spirit and become a christian, you are "grafted in" to Israel, and become a spiritual decsendent of Abraham. There's no dispensation. Notice:

If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Galatians 3:29)

There is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, (Romans 10:12)

We are Abraham's descendants by faith, not lawkeeping. Abraham never kept the Sabbath or the Old Covenant like you guys try to claim. The Old Covenant was long after Abraham. Read Romans 4. Heck, read all of Romans and don't quote snippets like you accuse others of doing :)
 
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bowharp

Guest
Firstly, I am an ex Sabbathkeeper so I am aware of what Scripture teaches on this issue. If I thought the Sabbath and Holy Days still applied, I'd keep them. They do not apply, and neither does the Old Covenant, except where there are moral absolutes such as the 9 other commandments.

1. The Scriptures you quoted selectively say clearly that the Sabbath was a sign between God and ancient Israel. Who
was God speaking to in those verses? He was speaking to ancient Israel. Read also Exodus 31:16-17 to see that
the Sabbath was a sign for ancient Israel that they were under the Old Covenant.
2. There is no evidence that any human kept the Sabbath until Exodus 16. Any assertion you make in this regard is
an argument from silence. Show me a Scripture if you want to assert otherwise. God ceased creating on the seventh
day, but there is no evidence that any human kept the Sabbath before Exodus 16.
3. Can you truly say that you are pronouncing God's personal name correctly? No...the vowels have been lost. So, the whole
Holy Name assertions have no value. They are simply another one of many things that people like to promote to make
themselves look holier than other people. Same with the Sabbath and the Holy Days for many. And, to be honest, it
makes them look foolish to proclaim their superiority based on such things.




I am aware that the Abrahamic Covenant is a separate covenant. The sign wasn't just a sign between God and Abraham; it was a sign between Abraham's descendants as well.

Circumcision, however, was co-opted into the Old Covenant. Leviticus 13 specifies the need for an Israelite to be circumcised. Not only that, but it also was a sign associated with the Old Covenant. Galatians 5:1-4 points to this. Paul basically says in these verses that circumcision was part of the Law.

I am not sure if you are saying that the Old Covenant is still in effect or not. If you are, you are contradicting Scriptures which I referred to earlier.

See these Scriptures. Study them. Then come back and present your case.

The Old Covenant was an agreement between God and the nation of Israel (Ex. 31:12-17).The Ten Commandments are a summary of the Old Covenant (Ex 31:18, 34:28; Deut 4:13, 9:9, 11).The Old Covenant is no longer in effect for anyone (2 Cor 3:4-18, Gal 3:17-25, Heb 8:13-9:4).The Sabbath, therefore, is not in effect for anyone (Gal 4:10, Rom 14:5-6, Col 2:16-17).Christians are under the New Covenant, which has higher demands and different commandments (Luke 22:20, Heb 9:15; Jn 13:34, 15:12, 17; Rom 13:10).The chief of those commandments is to love others as Christ loved us (Jn 13:34).
The Sabbath was a sign of the Old Covenant between God and Israel (Ex. 31:16-17).A sign is an identifying mark, and the Sabbath identified the nation of Israel as distinct from the other nations.Christians are not parties to the Old Covenant, which was between God and Israel.
I am pretty sure Jesus said he came to fulfill the law, the Ten commandments.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Matthew 5:17

Therefore, the Sabbaths is included. Oui?
 
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sparkman

Guest
I thought Jesus said he came to fulfill the law, the Ten commandments?

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Matthew 5:17

Therefore, the Sabbaths is included. Oui?
Matt 5:17-19 [SUP]17 [/SUP]“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Wrong. Matthew 5:17-18 refers to the Law and the Prophets, which are two major subdivisions of the Old Testament. And Christ fulfilled them in the sense that he fulfilled the Old Covenant perfectly, and fulfilled the Messianic prophecies associated with him. Matthew 5:19 is talking about the commandments he was uttering right then, on the Sermon of the Mount.

The Sermon on the Mount is the New Covenant equivalent of God giving the Old Covenant Law on Sinai. The Sermon on the Mount is the summary of the New Covenant, like the Ten Commandments were the summary of the Old Covenant. The Book of the Law elaborated on the Old Covenant, like the apostolic writings elaborate on the principles of the Sermon on the Mount.

Notice that God delivered the Old Covenant through Moses in an impersonal way. Christ delivered the Sermon on the Mount in a personal way, to many people directly.

The problem with legalists is that they simply are accepting a lesser revelation of God's holiness than the fuller revelation, which is found in Jesus Christ (Heb 1:1-2). They rarely even speak about Jesus Christ, but focus on the Law. It's a continual thing with them.
 
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sparkman

Guest
Proverbs 16

4Answer not a fool according to his folly,
lest you be like him yourself.

5Answer a fool according to his folly,
lest he be wise in his own eyes.

Lord, which one should I do today?
 
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bowharp

Guest
Matt 5:17-19 [SUP]17 [/SUP]“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Wrong. Matthew 5:17-18 refers to the Law and the Prophets, which are two major subdivisions of the Old Testament. And Christ fulfilled them in the sense that he fulfilled the Old Covenant perfectly, and fulfilled the Messianic prophecies associated with him. Matthew 5:19 is talking about the commandments he was uttering right then, on the Sermon of the Mount.

The Sermon on the Mount is the New Covenant equivalent of God giving the Old Covenant Law on Sinai. The Sermon on the Mount is the summary of the New Covenant, like the Ten Commandments were the summary of the Old Covenant. The Book of the Law elaborated on the Old Covenant, like the apostolic writings elaborate on the principles of the Sermon on the Mount.

Notice that God delivered the Old Covenant through Moses in an impersonal way. Christ delivered the Sermon on the Mount in a personal way, to many people directly.

The problem with legalists is that they simply are accepting a lesser revelation of God's holiness than the fuller revelation, which is found in Jesus Christ (Heb 1:1-2). They rarely even speak about Jesus Christ, but focus on the Law. It's a continual thing with them.
Those are your views. I definitely don't support those views.

You can't pick and choose the bible verses to see what fits you. Jesus came to fulfill the law. Sure, Jesus came so we don't have to do 'works' to be save through the ten commandments but it doesn't give us an excuse to be ignorant to the Ten Commandments either. So are you going to exclude any other commandments as well?

The 10 Commandments List, Short Form


  1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
  2. You shall not make idols.
  3. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
  4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
  5. Honor your father and your mother.
  6. You shall not murder.
  7. You shall not commit adultery.
  8. You shall not steal.
  9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
  10. You shall not covet.
 
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