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Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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my view is based on genesis 1:24-25 where God names 'cattle' as a separate class of animal...distinct from 'beasts of the earth' and 'creeping things'...

i take this to mean that God created these 'cattle' animals with the specific intent for them to be domesticated by humans...
good point, I never saw that before... though being listed as a separate class means domestication, I'm not seeing... not saying it's not there...

could cause a problem in chap 9, though... since cattle aren't listed as a thing to eat...
 
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RachelBibleStudent

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Genesis 5

This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day when God created man, He made him in the likeness of God. [SUP]2 [/SUP]He created them male and female, and He blessed them and named them [SUP][a][/SUP]Man in the day when they were created.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]When Adam had lived one hundred and thirty years, he [SUP][/SUP]became the father of a son in his own likeness, according to his image, and named him Seth. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Then the days of Adam after he became the father of Seth were eight hundred years, and he had other sons and daughters. [SUP]5 [/SUP]So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years, and he died.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Seth lived one hundred and five years, and became the father of Enosh. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Then Seth lived eight hundred and seven years after he became the father of Enosh, and he had other sons and daughters. [SUP]8 [/SUP]So all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years, and he died.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Enosh lived ninety years, and became the father of Kenan. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Then Enosh lived eight hundred and fifteen years after he became the father of Kenan, and he had other sons and daughters. [SUP]11 [/SUP]So all the days of Enosh were nine hundred and five years, and he died.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Kenan lived seventy years, and became the father of Mahalalel. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Then Kenan lived eight hundred and forty years after he became the father of Mahalalel, and he had other sons and daughters. [SUP]14 [/SUP]So all the days of Kenan were nine hundred and ten years, and he died.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Mahalalel lived sixty-five years, and became the father of Jared. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Then Mahalalel lived eight hundred and thirty years after he became the father of Jared, and he had other sons and daughters. [SUP]17 [/SUP]So all the days of Mahalalel were eight hundred and ninety-five years, and he died.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]Jared lived one hundred and sixty-two years, and became the father of Enoch. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Then Jared lived eight hundred years after he became the father of Enoch, and he had other sons and daughters. [SUP]20 [/SUP]So all the days of Jared were nine hundred and sixty-two years, and he died.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Enoch lived sixty-five years, and became the father of Methuselah. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Then Enoch walked with God three hundred years after he became the father of Methuselah, and he had other sons and daughters. [SUP]23 [/SUP]So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.

[SUP]25 [/SUP]Methuselah lived one hundred and eighty-seven years, and became the father of Lamech. [SUP]26 [/SUP]Then Methuselah lived seven hundred and eighty-two years after he became the father of Lamech, and he had other sons and daughters. [SUP]27 [/SUP]So all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred and sixty-nine years, and he died.

[SUP]28 [/SUP]Lamech lived one hundred and eighty-two years, and became the father of a son. [SUP]29 [/SUP]Now he called his name Noah, saying, “This one will [SUP][c][/SUP]give us rest from our work and from the toil of our hands arising from the ground which the Lord has cursed.” [SUP]30 [/SUP]Then Lamech lived five hundred and ninety-five years after he became the father of Noah, and he had other sons and daughters. [SUP]31 [/SUP]So all the days of Lamech were seven hundred and seventy-seven years, and he died.

[SUP]32 [/SUP]Noah was five hundred years old, and Noah became the father of Shem, Ham, and Japheth.


Footnotes:

a. Genesis 5:2 Lit Adam
b. Genesis 5:3 Lit begot, and so throughout the ch
c. Genesis 5:29 Lit comfort us in
 
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MarcR

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In the following excerpt from my commentary, the hyperlinks have been disabled. Cross references in (parenthesies) originate where they are found. {Return to:} statements originate at their destination.

1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
1 This is the register (or account) of the generations of man. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

[In the likeness of God made he him] This account is again introduced to keep man in remembrance of the heights of glory whence he had fallen, and to prove to him that the miseries and death consequent on his present state were produced by his transgression, and did not flow from his original state. For, as he was created in the image of God, he was created free from natural and moral evil. As the deaths of the patriarchs are now to be mentioned, it was necessary to introduce them by this observation, in order to justify the ways of God to man.
(from Adam Clarke's Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1996 by Biblesoft)

In another sense we are still in the image of God (See note at: Ge 1:26)

“Rabbi ben Azzai translated these words: ‘This is the book of the generations of Man’ and declared them to be ‘a great fundamental teaching of the Torah’. As all human beings are traced back to one parent, he taught, they must necessarily be brothers. These words, therefore proclaim the vital truth of the unity of the Human Race and the consequent doctrine of the Brotherhood of Man”
from (Rabbi J. H. Hertz commentary on this verse Pentateuch and Haftorahs p.17 Soncino Press London 1937)

2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name adam, in the day when they were created.

adam = ‘ahdahm’ ‘Red’ and signifies mankind; while ‘ish’ signifies a person of male gender. We need to distinguish by context between adam (mankind) and Adam (the first man).

3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

(See: note Ge 1:26) 4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:

Adam means red; but also means Man in the sense of Mankind
{Return to: Ge 4:17, Ex 6:17 }

5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

{Return to: Hos 13:1 }

6 And Seth lived an hundred and five years, and begat Enos:

Seth means Compensation.

7 And Seth lived after he begat Enos eight hundred and seven years, and begat sons and daughters:

8 And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years: and he died.

9 And Enos lived ninety years, and begat Cainan:

Enos means Poet

10 And Enos lived after he begat Cainan eight hundred and fifteen years, and begat sons and daughters:

11 And all the days of Enos were nine hundred and five years: and he died.

12 And Cainan lived seventy years, and begat Mahalaleel:


Cainan means Forge Worker or Possessor

13 And Cainan lived after he begat Mahalaleel eight hundred and forty years, and begat sons and daughters:

14 And all the days of Cainan were nine hundred and ten years: and he died.

15 And Mahalaleel lived sixty and five years, and begat Jared:

Mahalaleel means Praise to God

16 And Mahalaleel lived after he begat Jared eight hundred and thirty years, and begat sons and daughters:

17 And all the days of Mahalaleel were eight hundred ninety and five years: and
he died.

18 And Jared lived an hundred sixty and two years, and he begat Enoch:

Jared means Descender.

19 And Jared lived after he begat Enoch eight hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:

20 And all the days of Jared were nine hundred sixty and two years: and he died.

21 And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah:

22 And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:

Enoch means Dedicated

23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:

24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Enoch, and Elijah (2Ki 2:11) were both taken alive into Heaven, as was the Lord
(Ac 1:9) and as the Church will be. (1Th 4:15-17).

25 And Methuselah lived an hundred eighty and seven years, and begat
Lamech:

26 And Methuselah lived after he begat Lamech seven hundred eighty and two years, and begat sons and daughters:

Methuselah means Man of the Dart.

27 And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died.

{Return to: Ge 25:4} 28 And Lamech lived an hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son:

Lamech means Taster.

29 And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed.

Noah means Comfort. (Noh achʹ) {Return to: Rv 22:3 }

30 And Lamech lived after he begat Noah five hundred ninety and five years, and begat sons and daughters:

31 And all the days of Lamech were seven hundred seventy and seven years: and he died.

This genealogy is repeated in 1 Ch 1:1-4 and in reverse order with some variation in the forms of the names in Luke 3:36-38

I have given the traditional definitions of the names in the above genealogy. Chuck Missler in his book Learn The Bible in 24 Hours, defines the names somewhat differently:
Adam = man; Seth = appointed; Enosh = mortal; Kenan = sorrow; Mahalalel = Blessed God; Jared = shall come down; Enoch = teaching; Methusaleh = death shall bring; Lamech = despairing; Noach = comfort. Thus the names of the patriarchs give the message:
Man (is) appointed mortal sorrow (but) the blessed God shall come down teaching (that His) death shall bring (the) despairing rest.
Using Brown Driver Briggs lexicon I have found justification for all of Missler’s definitions except Lamech; and the fact that I couldn’t find justification for rendering Lamech as despairing certainly doesn’t support the conclusion that there isn’t any.

32 And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
32 And Noah was five hundred and two years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

In Hebrew the text reads ben chemesh meowt shanah: ben usually means son or grandson; but before a number it signifies age; chemesh is 5; meowt is hundred; shanah is year (singular) but the number makes it years. There is an interesting problem here. If you do the arithmetic, it is easy to prove that Noah was born in the year 1056 from Adam’s creation; and Methuselah died in the year of the flood (1656). If Arphaxad was born 2 years after the flood (Ge 11:10); he was born in the year 1658. If Shem was 100 years old at the time of Arphaxad’s birth then Shem was born in 1558; which is 502 years after Noah’s birth. What follows is only informed speculation: One form of the Hebrew word for years is י sh’nay’ which is identical with the Hebrew word for two. These can be differentiated only by context. If the text had originally contained the word ‘sh’nay’ followed by ‘shanah’ or sh’nay instead of shanah, someone might have thought it to be an error and replaced ‘sh’nay shanah’ with ‘shanah’ which is the way the Hebrew text reads today. It is in any case certainly a human error; which does not really interfere with the message of the two passages.
 
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MarcR

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good point, I never saw that before... though being listed as a separate class means domestication, I'm not seeing... not saying it's not there...

could cause a problem in chap 9, though... since cattle aren't listed as a thing to eat...
Gen 9:3
3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
KJV


Every moving thing that liveth seems to me to include cattle
 

Yonah

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Oct 31, 2014
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the Jewish sages say that when Adam was created the Father used all the different types of soil (dust) of the earth, not just one and not from the garden of Eden, Gen 3:23
Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
if this is true (its not in the text) then it flies in the face of mans petty prejudice, when Adam came from the hand of our Creator, he was prefect in character as well as beauty (as was Eve) its amazing how He took the dust of the earth and created such a wonderful and functional creation, there are 300 trillion cells in our bodies and each has a purpose just as each of us have a purpose in His body....
t


 

MarcR

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Feb 12, 2015
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the Jewish sages say that when Adam was created the Father used all the different types of soil (dust) of the earth, not just one and not from the garden of Eden, Gen 3:23
Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
if this is true (its not in the text) then it flies in the face of mans petty prejudice, when Adam came from the hand of our Creator, he was prefect in character as well as beauty (as was Eve) its amazing how He took the dust of the earth and created such a wonderful and functional creation, there are 300 trillion cells in our bodies and each has a purpose just as each of us have a purpose in His body....
t


Adam's name means 'Red'. This in itself should be sufficient to dispell prejudice!
 

Yonah

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Adam's name means 'Red'. This in itself should be sufficient to dispell prejudice!
true but yet.... anyway for those of us inclined to be aware of (as least as much as is revealed) of the operation of His hands these truths and many others are a blessing.
 

Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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Gen 9:3
3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
KJV


Every moving thing that liveth seems to me to include cattle
right, and I agree...

so, the question earlier was what was abel doing keeping flocks, since humans weren't eating animals at that time...

Rachel's answer (if I understood) was that cattle are mentioned separately on the sixth day of creation, so they are intended to be cared for by humans...

I couldn't really see that, though it could be a possibility.

so, two questions: what is abel doing keeping flocks, and why are cattle listed separately?
 

MarcR

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Feb 12, 2015
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right, and I agree...

so, the question earlier was what was abel doing keeping flocks, since humans weren't eating animals at that time...

Rachel's answer (if I understood) was that cattle are mentioned separately on the sixth day of creation, so they are intended to be cared for by humans...

I couldn't really see that, though it could be a possibility.

so, two questions: what is abel doing keeping flocks, and why are cattle listed separately?
Wool is used for fabric and cordage. Cows, sheep, and Goats produce milk, which is a wholesome food without doing harm to the animal from which it comes. Milk is also useful for making cheese.

Leather is useful for making footware, containers, and harness.

Oxen are useful for plowing and hauling.

Beaf cattle, Sheep and Goats made acceptable sacrifices to offer to God.
 

Dan_473

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Wool is used for fabric and cordage. Cows, sheep, and Goats produce milk, which is a wholesome food without doing harm to the animal from which it comes. Milk is also useful for making cheese.

Leather is useful for making footware, containers, and harness.

Oxen are useful for plowing and hauling.

Beaf cattle, Sheep and Goats made acceptable sacrifices to offer to God.
good points...

were humans eating milk/cheese at this time? if so, that could go a long way towards alleviating the curse on the ground... goats can eat thorns, then give milk...

sounds like there's four people alive at this time... for the animal products, how much of them could four people use? meanwhile, adam, cain, and maybe eve are trying to scratch food out of the soil...

this may have been an underlying cause of cain's killing abel... or perhaps genesis is compiled from various sources, not meant to be put together...
 
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RachelBibleStudent

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here are my thoughts on genesis 5...

one thing someone pointed out to me once is that in verse two it says God created male and female humans and called -both of them- 'man'...the footnote in my NASB indicates that in literal hebrew it says he called them both 'adam'... the neat truth that this reveals is that God had the creation of the woman in mind right when he made and named adam...in creating adam God also decided on the pattern for eve...

there is a contrast in the early part of this chapter...we are reminded that adam was made in the image of God...but then we are told that adam's son seth was in his own image... this shows that the image of God which belonged to adam was affected to the point that the image of adam's son was more accurately called adam's image rather than God's image... because of sin humans are no longer perfect images of God...

most of the rest of the chapter is a fairly routine genealogy of the sethite line...and it includes three generations that we already learned about from previous chapters...adam and seth and enosh... it is noteworthy that for each generation it says that 'other sons and daughters' were born...that means each person in the genealogy had at least five children...the one who is named...'other sons' which being plural means at least two...and 'daughters' which also being plural means at least two as well... because it is interesting i will include a running estimate of the number of people in each generation assuming five births to each person in each generation...

'seth' means 'substituted' because eve gave God credit for providing seth as a substitute for abel... there were at least five people in seth's generation...

'enosh' means 'mortal'...a humble acknowledgment of the mortality of human beings...genesis 4 told us that it was in enosh's lifetime that many of the acts we associate with worshipping God began to be practiced... there might have been about twenty-five people in enosh's generation...

'kenan' means 'fixed' with the connotation of a fixed dwelling place... i cannot insist on any particular interpretation of this name...but i could speculate that it might be a reference to God as our dwelling place and enosh's hope that his son would be firmly fixed in the way of God... another possibility might be that it refers to the first building of fixed permanent encampments by the sethites in that time period... there could have been 125 people in kenan's generation...

'mahalalel' means 'praise of God' or 'fame of God'...evidently when he was born the sethites were still mostly godly people with God still being important in their minds... mahalalel's generation might have included 625 people...

'jared' means 'descent' or 'falling'...i could speculate that this might indicate an observation by his father that some of the sethite people had begun to fall away from their love of God... jared's generation might have consisted of over 3,000 people...

'enoch' means 'initiated' or 'beginning' as in the act of beginning on the a path of a discipline... i can't be sure of the interpretation of this name...although it could reflect jared's intent to train him in the ways of God in spite of the increasing godlessness around them... by enoch's time there might have been around 16,000 people...

more is said about enoch than the others...it says that he walked with God...indicating that he lived a life of obedience and fellowship with God...which would sensibly correspond with the meaning of his name... after walking with God enoch was taken away...the new testament indicates that this was so that he would not see death... this may simply mean that God wanted to reward enoch by sparing him from a mortal end...but a more speculative possibility given the times he lived in could be that God specifically wanted to spare him from death by persecution as he was probably contemporary with cain's descendant methushael whose name possibly indicated murderous intentions against God's people...

enoch named his son 'methuselah'...there are two possible meanings of this name... one is that it means something like 'his death will bring'...thought by many to be a prophetic warning by enoch that the flood would come when methuselah died...according to the biblical timeline it does appear that methuselah died in the same year that the flood began... another possible meaning of the name 'methuselah' is 'man of a spear'...a name that suggests a warrior...speculatively this could be another suggestion of warfare or violence between the cainites and God's people... methuselah's generation may have had around 80,000 people...

the name 'lamech' has an uncertain meaning...just like with the cainite lamech in genesis 4... if luther's suggestion of 'diminished' or 'suppressed' is correct then the two lamechs could have been contemporaries and their names might have been counterparts...the cainite lamech might have been pridefully named in celebration of successful suppression of God's people...whereas the sethite lamech might have been sorrowfully named for that same suppression of God's people... lamech's generation might have numbered around 400,000...

lamech named his son 'noah' which means 'quiet' or 'rest'...this name reflected his father's hope which may have been a prophecy of the flood...lamech perhaps hoped that the flood would mean a new start for the world and relief for those who had been struggling to survive...especially God's people... noah's generation may have been about 2 million people...

finally it says noah was the father of shem and ham and japheth...japheth was probably the oldest and ham was the youngest... 'japheth' means 'expansion'...'shem' means 'name'...and 'ham' means 'hot' or possibly even 'scorched'... ham's name may identify him as having very dark skin...the names of japheth and shem will be important in noah's blessing a few chapters from now... this generation may have numbered around 10 million people!
 
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RachelBibleStudent

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one more thing to learn from the genealogies is that it shows God's loving concern for everyone...a modern person might say 'i don't care about who begat who 5,000 years ago'...but God cares!

if God was watching the day kenan begat mahalalel then he was certainly watching over you when you were born...if God recorded that the days of jared's life were 962 years then he certainly has determined the length of your life too...
 
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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
hopefully genesis 6 will get more discussion...it is the beginning of the very interesting story of noah...

though i would prefer not to have a major debate about what the nephilim are and about the flood as it relates to geology and so on...this thread was not really created for debates between competing interpretations...

i will not suggest that anyone refrain from expressing their point of view about these issues...but if you have an opinion it would be most courteous to just state it once and move on...
 
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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
Genesis 6

Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them, [SUP]2 [/SUP]that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were [SUP][a][/SUP]beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Then the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not [SUP][/SUP]strive with man forever, [SUP][c][/SUP]because he also is flesh; [SUP][d][/SUP]nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” [SUP]4 [/SUP]The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. [SUP]6 [/SUP]The Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved [SUP][e][/SUP]in His heart. [SUP]7 [/SUP]The Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the [SUP][f][/SUP]sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.” [SUP]8 [/SUP]But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]These are the records of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, [SUP][g][/SUP]blameless in his [SUP][h][/SUP]time; Noah walked with God. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Noah [SUP][/SUP]became the father of three sons: Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]Now the earth was corrupt in the sight of God, and the earth was filled with violence. [SUP]12 [/SUP]God looked on the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Then God said to Noah, “The end of all flesh has come before Me; for the earth is filled with violence because of them; and behold, I am about to destroy them with the earth. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Make for yourself an ark of gopher wood; you shall make the ark with rooms, and shall [SUP][j][/SUP]cover it inside and out with pitch. [SUP]15 [/SUP]This is how you shall make it: the length of the ark three hundred [SUP][k][/SUP]cubits, its breadth fifty [SUP][l][/SUP]cubits, and its height thirty [SUP][m][/SUP]cubits. [SUP]16 [/SUP]You shall make a [SUP][n][/SUP]window for the ark, and finish it to a cubit from [SUP][o][/SUP]the top; and set the door of the ark in the side of it; you shall make it with lower, second, and third decks. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Behold, I, even I am bringing the flood of water upon the earth, to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life, from under heaven; everything that is on the earth shall perish. [SUP]18 [/SUP]But I will establish My covenant with you; and you shall enter the ark—you and your sons and your wife, and your sons’ wives with you. [SUP]19 [/SUP]And of every living thing of all flesh, you shall bring two of every kind into the ark, to keep them alive with you; they shall be male and female. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Of the birds after their kind, and of the animals after their kind, of every creeping thing of the ground after its kind, two of every kind will come to you to keep them alive. [SUP]21 [/SUP]As for you, take for yourself some of all food which is edible, and gather it to yourself; and it shall be for food for you and for them.” [SUP]22 [/SUP]Thus Noah did; according to all that God had commanded him, so he did.



Footnotes:

a. Genesis 6:2 Lit good
b. Genesis 6:3 Or rule in; some ancient versions read abide in
c. Genesis 6:3 Or in his going astray he is flesh
d. Genesis 6:3 Or therefore
e. Genesis 6:6 Lit to
f. Genesis 6:7 Lit heavens
g. Genesis 6:9 Lit complete, perfect; or having integrity
h. Genesis 6:9 Lit generations
i. Genesis 6:10 Lit begot
j. Genesis 6:14 Or pitch
k. Genesis 6:15 I.e. One cubit equals approx 18 in.
l. Genesis 6:15 I.e. One cubit equals approx 18 in.
m. Genesis 6:15 I.e. One cubit equals approx 18 in.
n. Genesis 6:16 Or roof
o. Genesis 6:16 Lit above
 
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Billyd

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Rachel, I realize that you don't want to get bogged down in 6:1-4. With that in mind, would you take a few moments to explain them, and why do you think that God included them at this point?
 
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Tintin

Guest
Just quickly, concerning the 'sons of God' and Nephilim. I don't know what I believe about that passage. I was firmly in the fallen angels camp in my childhood, up until a couple years ago. Then I heard the Seth and Cain interpretation and that didn't convince me, and I heard the demonic political dictators angle too, and that didn't seem to make sense of the text either. I don't think any of the interpretations are perfect, but after much thought, discussion and deliberation, I've returned to the fallen angels belief. It's interesting, but I don't get hung up on it. And I don't see the point in posting doctored photos of giant skeletons as proof.

That said, I have a theory. We know that pre-Flood people lived enormously long lives. Is it possible that some of those (Noah and his family) were seen as gods and demi-gods given their long, long, long lifespans? Not initially by their children or whatever, but by latter generations. It's certainly possible. Especially, since almost all cultures have some fixation with immortal people/gods. Elements of the passage could be editorial details from Moses to tie together the different toledoths.
 
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MarcR

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good points...

were humans eating milk/cheese at this time? if so, that could go a long way towards alleviating the curse on the ground... goats can eat thorns, then give milk...

sounds like there's four people alive at this time... for the animal products, how much of them could four people use? meanwhile, adam, cain, and maybe eve are trying to scratch food out of the soil...

this may have been an underlying cause of cain's killing abel... or perhaps genesis is compiled from various sources, not meant to be put together...
We are NOT told how many cattle of each kind God created or how often they were sacrificed.

If God created 7 pair of each (the number Noah took on the ark); even if they multiplied faster at first than they could be used, what harm would that cause?

 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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here are my thoughts on genesis 5...

one thing someone pointed out to me once is that in verse two it says God created male and female humans and called -both of them- 'man'...the footnote in my NASB indicates that in literal hebrew it says he called them both 'adam'... the neat truth that this reveals is that God had the creation of the woman in mind right when he made and named adam...in creating adam God also decided on the pattern for eve...

there is a contrast in the early part of this chapter...we are reminded that adam was made in the image of God...but then we are told that adam's son seth was in his own image... this shows that the image of God which belonged to adam was affected to the point that the image of adam's son was more accurately called adam's image rather than God's image... because of sin humans are no longer perfect images of God...

most of the rest of the chapter is a fairly routine genealogy of the sethite line...and it includes three generations that we already learned about from previous chapters...adam and seth and enosh... it is noteworthy that for each generation it says that 'other sons and daughters' were born...that means each person in the genealogy had at least five children...the one who is named...'other sons' which being plural means at least two...and 'daughters' which also being plural means at least two as well... because it is interesting i will include a running estimate of the number of people in each generation assuming five births to each person in each generation...

'seth' means 'substituted' because eve gave God credit for providing seth as a substitute for abel... there were at least five people in seth's generation...

'enosh' means 'mortal'...a humble acknowledgment of the mortality of human beings...genesis 4 told us that it was in enosh's lifetime that many of the acts we associate with worshipping God began to be practiced... there might have been about twenty-five people in enosh's generation...

'kenan' means 'fixed' with the connotation of a fixed dwelling place... i cannot insist on any particular interpretation of this name...but i could speculate that it might be a reference to God as our dwelling place and enosh's hope that his son would be firmly fixed in the way of God... another possibility might be that it refers to the first building of fixed permanent encampments by the sethites in that time period... there could have been 125 people in kenan's generation...

'mahalalel' means 'praise of God' or 'fame of God'...evidently when he was born the sethites were still mostly godly people with God still being important in their minds... mahalalel's generation might have included 625 people...

'jared' means 'descent' or 'falling'...i could speculate that this might indicate an observation by his father that some of the sethite people had begun to fall away from their love of God... jared's generation might have consisted of over 3,000 people...

'enoch' means 'initiated' or 'beginning' as in the act of beginning on the a path of a discipline... i can't be sure of the interpretation of this name...although it could reflect jared's intent to train him in the ways of God in spite of the increasing godlessness around them... by enoch's time there might have been around 16,000 people...

more is said about enoch than the others...it says that he walked with God...indicating that he lived a life of obedience and fellowship with God...which would sensibly correspond with the meaning of his name... after walking with God enoch was taken away...the new testament indicates that this was so that he would not see death... this may simply mean that God wanted to reward enoch by sparing him from a mortal end...but a more speculative possibility given the times he lived in could be that God specifically wanted to spare him from death by persecution as he was probably contemporary with cain's descendant methushael whose name possibly indicated murderous intentions against God's people...

enoch named his son 'methuselah'...there are two possible meanings of this name... one is that it means something like 'his death will bring'...thought by many to be a prophetic warning by enoch that the flood would come when methuselah died...according to the biblical timeline it does appear that methuselah died in the same year that the flood began... another possible meaning of the name 'methuselah' is 'man of a spear'...a name that suggests a warrior...speculatively this could be another suggestion of warfare or violence between the cainites and God's people... methuselah's generation may have had around 80,000 people...

the name 'lamech' has an uncertain meaning...just like with the cainite lamech in genesis 4... if luther's suggestion of 'diminished' or 'suppressed' is correct then the two lamechs could have been contemporaries and their names might have been counterparts...the cainite lamech might have been pridefully named in celebration of successful suppression of God's people...whereas the sethite lamech might have been sorrowfully named for that same suppression of God's people... lamech's generation might have numbered around 400,000...

lamech named his son 'noah' which means 'quiet' or 'rest'...this name reflected his father's hope which may have been a prophecy of the flood...lamech perhaps hoped that the flood would mean a new start for the world and relief for those who had been struggling to survive...especially God's people... noah's generation may have been about 2 million people...

finally it says noah was the father of shem and ham and japheth...japheth was probably the oldest and ham was the youngest... 'japheth' means 'expansion'...'shem' means 'name'...and 'ham' means 'hot' or possibly even 'scorched'... ham's name may identify him as having very dark skin...the names of japheth and shem will be important in noah's blessing a few chapters from now... this generation may have numbered around 10 million people!
It should be noted that in Hebrew, Adam is the personal name of the man God directly created; but it is the word for man in the sense of mankind. An unspecified male person is denoted by the word 'ish', and an unspecified female person is denoted by the word 'ishah'
 
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
i was asked to comment on genesis 6:1-4 but i am going to go all the way through verse twelve for better context on the nephilim issue...

'sons of God' and 'daughters of men' are more like terms of allegiance...the sons of God were children of God belonging to the kingdom of God...the daughters of men were children of men belonging to the kingdom of men...that is the kingdom of the world... it is actually quite a bit like a pre flood version of the concepts of 'jerusalem' and 'babylon'... the contrasting terms 'sons' and 'daughters' are used for these two groups of people because it would have been awkward for moses to speak of sons marrying sons...

early on the godly sons of God would have been mainly sethites...and the worldly daughters of men would have been mainly cainites...but these were not racial or ethnic or even familial distinctions and getting closer to the time of the flood even a lot of the sethites had become wicked and would have been identified as 'daughters of men' too...

so it says first that when people began to multiply that these sons of God and daughters of men began getting married...the people of God had started to become lax and were marrying solely based on physical attraction... these were 'unequally yoked' marriages...and a big danger of marriages of this type is that they often result in the children not being properly trained in the ways of God... this means that each successive generation is likely to become less and less concerned with the things of God...

by the time of the flood it seems there was virtually nobody left who cared about following God...other than noah... and it is doubtful that the messianic prophecy given to eve in eden was being passed down through ungodly generations...so it is probable that even the messianic promise itself was a mere generation or two away from being forgotten... this especially would have been a serious danger to the salvation of the human race...imagine if jesus had come and absolutely -nobody- on earth had any understanding about -anything- of a spiritual nature...it would have been virtually impossible for anyone to be saved...

so with so little time left for human civilization God gave the people of that time 120 more years on the earth...this was their last chance to repent and correct their course... the new testament tells us that during this time noah was a 'preacher of righteousness'...but his preaching apparently fell on deaf ears...it doesn't seem that he won any converts...unless maybe his sons' wives were converts... also probably around a third or halfway into this 120 year period is when noah began building the ark...which would have been another form of warning to the people of the pre flood world...

the fact that noah preached for 120 years and won maybe a handful of converts at the most lines up with the observation i made above...that it was becoming nearly impossible for any of the people to respond to the word of God with faith...

the situation actually reminds me quite a bit of a passage in the new testament that speaks about the end times...where it says that if God had not shorted the days then nobody could be saved... the human race was on a collision course with irreparable spiritual destruction...ironically the physical destruction of the flood was the only way to interrupt this process...

then we come to the nephilim...we are told that they were on the earth in those days... i cannot stress enough that the text does -not- actually say that the nephilim were the children born to the sons of God and the daughters of men...it -only- says that the nephilim were on the earth in those days when the sons of God and daughters of men were marrying and having children...the bible does not anywhere actually identify the nephilim as being those children...

many people interpret the word 'nephilim' as meaning 'fallen ones' in hebrew...but this is actually incorrect...the hebrew term is causative...it means something more like 'those who cause to fall'...in other words 'those who knock down'... so the word 'nephilim' is actually descriptive of a lifestyle...namely a life of violence and causing others to fall by striking them down... it was not a racial or ethnic term because the text says that the nephilim were also present on earth 'afterwards' and we see their presence in canaan mentioned in numbers over 1,000 years after the flood...the only way there could have been nephilim both before and after the flood is if there is no genetic relation between the two...in other words 'nephilim' cannot be a genetic or racial identifier at all...it simply refers to people whose living is characterized by excessive violence and murder... in the case of the post flood nephilim we know that they were anakites...and we know from the stories that they were violent and dangerous...and genealogically they can be traced back to noah with no scriptural evidence of anything 'weird' in their lineage...

so someone might ask...why does scripture mention the nephilim here if it is merely a term that refers to violent people...something that has always been in this world? the answer is at the end of verse four...these people were renowned and revered as heroes in the days before the flood... scripture includes them here as an example of just how wicked the world had become...so wicked that the mass murderers were the ones people admired!

notice that when God gives his reasons for causing the flood he only mentions the people's wickedness and their violence...he says nothing about bloodlines or genetic corruption or any of the other things that the 'fallen angel theory' mistakenly suggests as the primary reasons for the flood...

next it says that God saw this great wickedness and the constant evil of the people's hearts...and he was grieved...God resolved to wipe the world clean and start over with the one remaining family that still loved him...the family of noah...

it says noah found favor in God's eyes...the words 'favor' and 'grace' are interchangeable...so noah found grace...and salvation by grace comes through faith...so noah was a person of faith...

since righteousness is by faith it makes sense that noah is also called a righteous man and blameless in his time...the hebrew literally says that noah was 'perfect in his toledoth'... 'toledoth' was an ancient semitic word that referred to a record of your life and especially things like your finances and dealings...so in more modern terms we might say that noah had 'a perfect track record'...if we were to look at God's record of noah's life up to this found we would find nothing lacking... the hebrew word for 'perfect' has the sense of 'completeness'...his accounting was in order...or in modern terms 'all your boxes are checked off'...all of the requirements for noah's salvation were completed...of course we know that this happens only by the grace through faith that i mentioned earlier... and since he was a person of faith noah lived a life of faith...similar to enoch the bible says noah 'walked with God'...living a life of obedience and fellowship with God...

noah's three sons are mentioned again here...given that they are named right after noah's godliness is described...it seems the author wants us to draw the conclusion that noah was godly before they were born...and therefore they were born to a person of lifelong faith who would train them in the ways of God...

finally the text summarizes the problem one more time...the earth was corrupt...and it specifically says they were corrupt in their -ways-...corruption of genetics or bloodlines is not mentioned as being any part of the problem here... verse eleven mentions that the earth is filled with violence...an assessment God will repeat to noah in verse thirteen...again we can understand why the author mentioned the nephilim earlier...they were the epitome of violence and it is human violence that was one of God's primary reasons for sending the flood...
 
T

Tintin

Guest
It boggles my mind that 'every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.' How does it get to that point? We live in evil times, but there are still many people loyal to the one true God. And this was sometime in the latter pre-Flood period. Only about 1,500 years had passed since Creation.