Which statement is true?

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Which Statement is true?

  • John 10:27-29

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Hebrews 6:4-6

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • They are both true

    Votes: 23 100.0%
  • God can't seem to make up His mind so why should I?

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    23

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
787
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#1
Which statement is a lie?


John 10:27-29

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Hebrews 6:4-6

For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.


 
Dec 12, 2013
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#2
Both are true and context determines the validity of each statement......Hebrews is addressing those who wanted to go back under the law and blend the law with grace......and states that it is impossible to be re-saved IF it can be lost.....John is clear...salvation is eternal and CANNOT be LOST as it is based upon the WORK and FAITH of Christ which is perfect, complete and everlasting......not that difficult when context is applied!
 

Dan58

Senior Member
Nov 13, 2013
1,991
339
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#3
I think Hebrews is describing Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which is unforgivable. John says; "no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand". While Hebrews implies that we ourselves can turn away and hold him in contempt. jmo
 
F

flob

Guest
#4
'a lie'?
My goodness, op
is it a matter of translation?
it is not uncommon, that many, most? have no idea what 6:4-6 is talking about.
 
O

oldthennew

Guest
#5
the op could be offensive to many who revere and honor the Word of God -

to sow discord and disbelief is abomination to God.

like it is written: THY WORD IS TRUTH
 
P

psychomom

Guest
#6
please may a question be asked?

why take 2 passages like that, the second completely ripped out of context (thanks, dcon!)
and try to make them say opposite things about the Word of Truth?

what's up? is there just misunderstanding of the Heb 6 passage, or is there an agenda?

:( :(
 
Jul 22, 2014
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#7
Both verses are 100% true.

But who are the type of sheep that cannot be plucked out of His hand?

The passage says it is the sheep that FOLLOW Jesus. These are not rebellious sheep being dragged about on leashes by their necks.

And Hebrews 6:4-6 is talking about apostasy after having the Spirit and the gifts thereof. It is talking about a denial of Jesus after having the Holy Spirit. It is not talking about backsliding into sin (Which is forgivable according to James 5:19-20). Anyways, we know for a fact that a believer can commit apostasy because the writer of Hebrews in verse 9 says he is convinced that such is not the case for those he is writing to here.
 
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mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,464
13,409
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58
#8
Both verses are 100% true.

But who are the type of sheep that cannot be plucked out of His hand?

The passage says it is the sheep that FOLLOW Jesus. These are not rebellious sheep being dragged about on leashes by their necks.
Jesus only mentioned one type of sheep. Jesus said MY sheep FOLLOW Me. Jesus did not say some of them do and some of them don't.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
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#9
John 10 is a statement of Fact from the Lord Jesus Christ.


Hebrews 6 is a hypothetical situation explaining why repentance does not need to be taught to Christians. They already know, and if they somehow didn't they couldn't be re-taught by men anyway.

Hebrews 6 isn't implying that men decide to fall away from Christ. Its not explaining the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Hebrews 6 is showing that repentance is a gift of God and if that gift of God doesn't bring someone to repentance your silly teaching isn't going to do it. Nor is my silly teaching going to do it.

Someone who blasphemes the Holy Spirit is an un-believer with a reprobate mind. A believer wouldn't dare. Not even kidding around. Like taking the Lord Jesus Christs' name in vain. A believer doesn't do that (anymore). That was just an analogy, like Hebrews 6. If a believer does use Christs name in vain that is not blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. But its getting close. Much too close for my comfort level.

I was going to make a snippy comment about those without faith but then I was thinking, what would be the point... They'll expose themselves soon enough.
 
Feb 7, 2015
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#10
I think a lot of the misunderstand here has to do with something I address in ths forum till I am blue in the face.

REPENTANCE is not Salvation. Nor is it remorse.

REPENTANCE is the decision (choice, conclusion) that you made a long time ago that you believed what The Holy Spirit taught about Jesus.

If you repent of that decision, (decide against God, instead of FOR Him) it means that you are saying you no longer believe in Jesus, and that you are, in effect, back in the howling mob, crucifying Him all over again..... because you now think (as they did) that He is just a blasphemer, claiming to be God.
 

JesusLives

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2013
14,554
2,176
113
#11
Which statement is a lie?


John 10:27-29

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Hebrews 6:4-6

For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.


Are you happy? Do you have peace in your heart? Do you listen to God's voice and follow Him where ever He leads? Or have you been saved and decided to walk away from salvation?
 
G

Gr8grace

Guest
#12
Both are true and context determines the validity of each statement......Hebrews is addressing those who wanted to go back under the law and blend the law with grace......and states that it is impossible to be re-saved IF it can be lost.....John is clear...salvation is eternal and CANNOT be LOST as it is based upon the WORK and FAITH of Christ which is perfect, complete and everlasting......not that difficult when context is applied!
Corret DC.

oh, the irony. There both eternal security verses.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,773
13,533
113
#13
here's a modicum of context to that passage in Hebrews that ought to be considered . . .

Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved,
we feel sure of better things — things that belong to salvation.

(Hebrews 6:9)
:rolleyes:

in fact, ought to read on through the whole chapter. the writer goes on to expresses just how sure is our hope, based on the certain faithfulness of God.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
126
63
#14
I think Hebrews is describing Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which is unforgivable. John says; "no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand". While Hebrews implies that we ourselves can turn away and hold him in contempt. jmo
Jesus in John also said 'THEY WILL NEVER PERISH'. It is an absolute statement. There are no exclusions or exceptions. Anyone who doubts it thinks that the shepherd is incapable of doing His job.

Hebrews does not imply that one who is truly saved can be lost. It implies that men can come right to the verge of being saved, having experienced all the Holy Spirit's pre-salvation activity and can so close their minds that they can never again be brought to the point where they can be saved.

It had in mind Jews who were on the verge of responding to Christ, but who were closing their minds due to intense persecution.
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
787
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#15
the op could be offensive to many who revere and honor the Word of God -

to sow discord and disbelief is abomination to God.

like it is written: THY WORD IS TRUTH
But there is already plenty of discord and disbelief on this matter. I'm just trying to resolve that by comparing the two sides of the issue. There are many who believe that John is the only truth, which means they have to believe that Hebrews is false. Or as, some here have now curiously intimated, a purely hypothetical situation that cannot really happen. Makes me wonder how much of God's word they would put under the 'hypothetical yet not real' banner.
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
787
113
#16
Hebrews 6, in context

1Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,[SUP]a[/SUP] and of faith in God, 2instruction about cleansing rites,[SUP]b[/SUP] the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And God permitting, we will do so.


John is talking to new converts, encouraging them to grow and mature in Christ.


4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6and who have fallen[SUP]c[/SUP] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.


John is warning the new converts that if they turn away they cannot return, and that their fruits will show where they stand in the truth.


9Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case—the things that have to do with salvation. 10God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, so that what you hope for may be fully realized. 12We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.


John is telling the new converts that they in particular he has no worry about, that he trusts they will grow, and encouraging them again to not become lazy in their faith and to be diligent to the end.


13When God made his promise to Abraham, since there was no one greater for him to swear by, he swore by himself, 14saying, “I will surely bless you and give you many descendants.” 15And so after waiting patiently, Abraham received what was promised. 16People swear by someone greater than themselves, and the oath confirms what is said and puts an end to all argument. 17Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath. 18God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope set before us may be greatly encouraged. 19We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, 20where our forerunner, Jesus, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.

John is telling the new converts that as long as they hold on to the hope God gives them they are forever safe in Him because He will not change His mind on them.
 
G

Gr8grace

Guest
#17
Jesus in John also said 'THEY WILL NEVER PERISH'. It is an absolute statement. There are no exclusions or exceptions. Anyone who doubts it thinks that the shepherd is incapable of doing His job.

Hebrews does not imply that one who is truly saved can be lost. It implies that men can come right to the verge of being saved, having experienced all the Holy Spirit's pre-salvation activity and can so close their minds that they can never again be brought to the point where they can be saved.

It had in mind Jews who were on the verge of responding to Christ, but who were closing their minds due to intense persecution.
These are saved people in Heb 6. We see the exact same thing here in these forums. Probably more than half here believe we can lose salvation. some of the believers were tempted to go back to the Jewish rituals to maintain their salvation.

And the Hebrews author was telling them it impossible to go back to the elementary principles to maintain salvation or get re-saved.

He died ONCE for sins.

Heb 9:28~~New American Standard Bible
so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
787
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#18
Both verses are 100% true.

But who are the type of sheep that cannot be plucked out of His hand?

The passage says it is the sheep that FOLLOW Jesus. These are not rebellious sheep being dragged about on leashes by their necks.

And Hebrews 6:4-6 is talking about apostasy after having the Spirit and the gifts thereof. It is talking about a denial of Jesus after having the Holy Spirit. It is not talking about backsliding into sin (Which is forgivable according to James 5:19-20). Anyways, we know for a fact that a believer can commit apostasy because the writer of Hebrews in verse 9 says he is convinced that such is not the case for those he is writing to here.
I think Hebrews is describing Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which is unforgivable. John says; "no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand". While Hebrews implies that we ourselves can turn away and hold him in contempt. jmo
And that is EXACTLY what is being said in these two passages. As long as we maintain an honest and true faith, as evidenced by our fruit, there is absolutely nothing that can or will part us from God. It is ONLY by renouncing one's faith that we can lose that assurance. And if it were not possible to renounce one's faith, it wouldn't even be brought up as a hypothetical, there'd be no need for the new converts to be encouraged to continue and warned about slacking.

And lest anyone say that this reflects a works-based salvation, that's not true as the following verses clearly state that salvation is based on faith and faith (or the loss thereof) is not an act of works:

Romans 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness. [SUP][/SUP]
4Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works
13It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.” He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that were not.
18Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”[SUP]d[/SUP] 19Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah’s womb was also dead. 20Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” 23The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves. It’s a gift of God and not of works, let any man should boast.

Acts 16:31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved”

"Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Romans 5:1

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
787
113
#19
Are you happy? Do you have peace in your heart? Do you listen to God's voice and follow Him where ever He leads? Or have you been saved and decided to walk away from salvation?
That last sentence really tells the whole story. Unless one is considering walking away from their salvation, the issue is really moot.

But, I will be happy and find peace in my heart when I see my brothers and sisters stop debating this issue with contention and division. Which will cease when those in error see and accept the truth.

This may take a while ;)
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
126
63
#20
These are saved people in Heb 6.
they were not saved people. they were under instruction. the question was whether after all that God had shown to them they would prove to be fruitful land or barren ground.

. some of the believers were tempted to go back to the Jewish rituals to maintain their salvation
.

No, those who were being instructed in the elements of religion were being warned not to despise what God was showing them. They were to go on to completion, that is to finally being saved'.

And the Hebrews author was telling them it impossible to go back to the elementary principles to maintain salvation or get re-saved.
No he was warning the 'learners' against resisting the conviction of the Holy Spirit through the word, that is, against being barren land

He died ONCE for sins.

Heb 9:28~~New American Standard Bible
so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
This we can agree on but it says nothing about Hebrews 6.