Which statement is true?
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P
That last sentence really tells the whole story. Unless one is considering walking away from their salvation, the issue is really moot.
But, I will be happy and find peace in my heart when I see my brothers and sisters stop debating this issue with contention and division. Which will cease when those in error see and accept the truth.
This may take a while
But, I will be happy and find peace in my heart when I see my brothers and sisters stop debating this issue with contention and division. Which will cease when those in error see and accept the truth.
This may take a while
i expect morale to improve any moment.
(couldn't you just let this go?)
E
Both are true.
John 10: No one (which would include ourselves. unless we think we are more powerful than God) can pluck us out of Gods hands, we can not lose salvation.
Heb 6 - Written to jews, who were trying to decide what to do. continue in grace, return to the law.
The law said if you sin, you fall away, and another sacrifice must be given.
Grace says we are saved forever.
The argument, If one could fall away, they could never be renewed (no sacrifice would be able to cause sin to be forgiven) and to say one can fall away (return to law) puts Christ to open shame, because it says he did not die for ALL SIN, there were some sins which he left out, which is why a person can fall away.
John 10: No one (which would include ourselves. unless we think we are more powerful than God) can pluck us out of Gods hands, we can not lose salvation.
Heb 6 - Written to jews, who were trying to decide what to do. continue in grace, return to the law.
The law said if you sin, you fall away, and another sacrifice must be given.
Grace says we are saved forever.
The argument, If one could fall away, they could never be renewed (no sacrifice would be able to cause sin to be forgiven) and to say one can fall away (return to law) puts Christ to open shame, because it says he did not die for ALL SIN, there were some sins which he left out, which is why a person can fall away.
E
sadly, only a legalist would claim they are not (through their blinded eyes)
taken in context. the author explains what he means
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; [SUP]8 [/SUP]but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
It says here, the fruit can be rejected, but it is still not cursed, if is only near to being cursed, Much like being inside a burning building, and running through the fire, with nothing on but the clothes on your back, you lost everything. You almost died. but you were still saved.
This is eternal security my friend, (see also 1 cor 3. which also talks about near to being cursed, but still being saved, even though as through fire )
taken in context. the author explains what he means
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; [SUP]8 [/SUP]but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
It says here, the fruit can be rejected, but it is still not cursed, if is only near to being cursed, Much like being inside a burning building, and running through the fire, with nothing on but the clothes on your back, you lost everything. You almost died. but you were still saved.
This is eternal security my friend, (see also 1 cor 3. which also talks about near to being cursed, but still being saved, even though as through fire )
No he is talking to Jews who are being instructed in the fundamentals of Christianity. They are learning the basic elements,
what has John got to do with it? he is talking to those who have experienced a revival atmosphere, and have been convicted by the Holy Spirit, and have seen great miracles (2.1-3) but it is nowhere said that thy had 'believed'.
he is saying that if they have been saved he knows that they will overcome.
G
How do you get Hyperbole out of it? Serious question, because I agree with about 99% of your posts. I don't see it if I missed it.
I see it as a literal account. We see the exact same thing here day in and day out with the believers here that think we can lose salvation.
They are living proof of these Hebrews in Chapter 6. Everyday they are laying again a foundation of repentance in dead works if they think their works and deeds maintain their salvation.
And while they are doing this it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to go on into maturity. They are stuck in the elementary principles.
I see it as a literal account. We see the exact same thing here day in and day out with the believers here that think we can lose salvation.
They are living proof of these Hebrews in Chapter 6. Everyday they are laying again a foundation of repentance in dead works if they think their works and deeds maintain their salvation.
And while they are doing this it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to go on into maturity. They are stuck in the elementary principles.
G
I don't see it Marc.
These believers were being reprimanded. Chapter 6 starts with "therefore" So we have to go back a bit.
The author said they had become dull of hearing. they should of been teachers by now. they needed to be taught AGAIN.
They were immature and needed to see the difference between good(Divine good) and evil(Human good/their good works in the flesh/dead works/going back to their rituals/namely animal sacrifice)
These believers were being reprimanded. Chapter 6 starts with "therefore" So we have to go back a bit.
The author said they had become dull of hearing. they should of been teachers by now. they needed to be taught AGAIN.
They were immature and needed to see the difference between good(Divine good) and evil(Human good/their good works in the flesh/dead works/going back to their rituals/namely animal sacrifice)
G
And Guys from my studies on this. The big no no for these Hebrew Christians was not the animal sacrifice in and of itself. It was they were going back to the temple and putting themselves under the authority of the Levitical priest.
We are our own priest. And Jesus alone is our great High Priest. Which is dealt with at the end of chapter 4 and beginning of 5.
We are our own priest. And Jesus alone is our great High Priest. Which is dealt with at the end of chapter 4 and beginning of 5.
But there are also verses of unfruitful trees being cut down entirely. Again a conundrum... do the verses that say near being cursed cancel out the ones that say cut it down? That's what I'm trying to get across here. So much of this debate centers around either/or conditions. I'm saying the answer lies in the middle ground between the two. You can't use one to negate and cancel out the other. That would be too easy. The hard part is figuring out how seemingly contradictory verses compliment each other. And no, just writing one off as unreal conjecture doesn't work.
Exactly. These Hebrews were new Christians (yes it's pretty clear that they were saved) being advised against turning away from that new faith to return to their old ways... just like a lot of us do. Paul says he doesn't think they will, but admonishes them not to on the chance that they will. He wouldn't advise against doing something like that unless they actually could.
