Which statement is true?
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Isaiah talks about how believers had once (in their past life) had went astray like sheep.
This gives a picture that sheep can once be in an unsaved or lost state. In addition, Jesus says he has come to save that which was lost, and that he will leave the 99 sheep in order to find that one sheep that has been lost. Now, think about that for a second. Is the sheep that was lost a type of sheep that is following Jesus? No. But no doubt your probably think this sheep is going to naturally come back or it will be forced back against it's will to follow the Master. But this is not what we read by the words of Jesus, though. Jesus says that if He finds that sheep he will then rejoice. But Jesus also uses the word "if" here, too; Which does not imply a guarantee that he will find this one sheep that has been lost or gone astray. Anyways, you can check out the words of Jesus saying this in Matthew 18:11-13 here,
11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
12 How think you? if a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, does he not leave the ninety and nine, and go into the mountains, and seek that which is gone astray?
13 And if so be that he finds it, verily I say unto you, he rejoices more for that sheep, than for the ninety and nine which went not astray.
If....so...be...that....he....finds...it.
Well, I do not know about you, but that doesn't sound like Eternal Security to me.
"All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." (Isaiah 53:6).
This gives a picture that sheep can once be in an unsaved or lost state. In addition, Jesus says he has come to save that which was lost, and that he will leave the 99 sheep in order to find that one sheep that has been lost. Now, think about that for a second. Is the sheep that was lost a type of sheep that is following Jesus? No. But no doubt your probably think this sheep is going to naturally come back or it will be forced back against it's will to follow the Master. But this is not what we read by the words of Jesus, though. Jesus says that if He finds that sheep he will then rejoice. But Jesus also uses the word "if" here, too; Which does not imply a guarantee that he will find this one sheep that has been lost or gone astray. Anyways, you can check out the words of Jesus saying this in Matthew 18:11-13 here,
11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
12 How think you? if a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, does he not leave the ninety and nine, and go into the mountains, and seek that which is gone astray?
13 And if so be that he finds it, verily I say unto you, he rejoices more for that sheep, than for the ninety and nine which went not astray.
If....so...be...that....he....finds...it.
Well, I do not know about you, but that doesn't sound like Eternal Security to me.
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V
I'll save y'all a big headache. Here's the simple truth:
Hebrews 6:4-6 isn’t presenting a possibility, but an IMPOSSIBILITY!
The writer is making a point that they were misunderstanding Jesus Christ. The writer is NOT saying that enlightened ones can fall away, but instead was describing their confusion. He is showing how their return to trying to make atonements and giving sacrifices for their sins is basically saying sacrifices are again demanded. In other words, they think it’s possible to fall away and need to be renewed again. WHICH IS IMPOSSIBLE for those who are born again!
Why is it impossible?
Because what Jesus said in John 10:27-29: “I gave them eternal life and they shall never perish. My Father gave them Me. No man (that means YOU!) is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.”
Hebrews 6:4-6 isn’t presenting a possibility, but an IMPOSSIBILITY!
The writer is making a point that they were misunderstanding Jesus Christ. The writer is NOT saying that enlightened ones can fall away, but instead was describing their confusion. He is showing how their return to trying to make atonements and giving sacrifices for their sins is basically saying sacrifices are again demanded. In other words, they think it’s possible to fall away and need to be renewed again. WHICH IS IMPOSSIBLE for those who are born again!
Why is it impossible?
Because what Jesus said in John 10:27-29: “I gave them eternal life and they shall never perish. My Father gave them Me. No man (that means YOU!) is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.”
Hebrews 6:
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
The writer here in Hebrews is creating a conflict by presenting an impossible condition and then illustrating his reasoning. He is saying that it is impossible for those who are saved by grace to fall away and then be unable to renew themselves by repentance because it would require a re-crucifying of Christ which would put Christ to an open shame.
John teaches that when we sin we have an advocate with the Father who pleads for us and restores us when we seek forgiveness. 1 John 1:9 and 2:1-2
The falling away of redeemed souls is impossible because restoration would be impossible and it is made clear in other passages that restoration is always available to believers.
This passage is illustrating the foolishness of the teaching that one can become saved and lose it every time they sin and then get saved again. This teaching tramples on the wholly sufficient to atone blood of Christ making it like unto the blood of calves and bulls which must be repeatedly applied because it lacks the divine eternal sufficiency of Christ's blood.
One is left to wonder if they have tasted of the goodness of the good word of God teaching that the grace of God alone is able to save souls. they must be born again before they can even begin to progress toward maturity in Christ.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
The writer here in Hebrews is creating a conflict by presenting an impossible condition and then illustrating his reasoning. He is saying that it is impossible for those who are saved by grace to fall away and then be unable to renew themselves by repentance because it would require a re-crucifying of Christ which would put Christ to an open shame.
John teaches that when we sin we have an advocate with the Father who pleads for us and restores us when we seek forgiveness. 1 John 1:9 and 2:1-2
The falling away of redeemed souls is impossible because restoration would be impossible and it is made clear in other passages that restoration is always available to believers.
This passage is illustrating the foolishness of the teaching that one can become saved and lose it every time they sin and then get saved again. This teaching tramples on the wholly sufficient to atone blood of Christ making it like unto the blood of calves and bulls which must be repeatedly applied because it lacks the divine eternal sufficiency of Christ's blood.
One is left to wonder if they have tasted of the goodness of the good word of God teaching that the grace of God alone is able to save souls. they must be born again before they can even begin to progress toward maturity in Christ.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
I should have kept track of all the threads and all the approaches of people trying to convince people that they are going to lose their salvation versus the ones telling people they are never going to lose their salvation, even if they really aren't saved!
How many more of these do we have to endure? And using the same passages!
People, let's move on to discipleship! How to obey God and let the Holy Spirit transform us into a people who do the will of God, and reach out to a lost and dying world.
How many more of these do we have to endure? And using the same passages!
People, let's move on to discipleship! How to obey God and let the Holy Spirit transform us into a people who do the will of God, and reach out to a lost and dying world.
all 'sheep' are until they start to follow Jesus.
He could well have been but foolishly gone astray. or it may refer to someone who is away from God
Try Luke 15.4, He will seek it UNTIL HE FINDS IT
I don't think anything will sound like eternal security to you. but then you are biased.
it sounds to me here as though Jesus was talking about someone who was away from God and had always been so. so it has nothing to do with eternal security. but Luke 15.4 clearly refers to eternal security
Neither is a lie 
.
The Hebrews 6:4-6 verses can certainly be misunderstood if read out of context of the entire letter to the Hebrews (as with Hebrews 10:26-27).
The whole of Hebrews is written to communicate to Hebrews - both to Hebrew believers and Hebrews who have heard the Gospel and have not yet decided to believe in the Work of Christ - of the superiority of the New Covenant in Christ. A New Covenant which is based on better promises and mediated by a better High Priest.
The Old Covenant was one of going in and out of covenant with God based on one's actions; the New Covenant is one of security and adoption into God's family based on Christ's actions:
His Work of the Cross, the Resurrection, the Ascension, and His Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood.
Once we believe in the Work of Christ, we receive the gifts of forgiveness, righteousness, and eternal life. When we sin (and we all do, hopefully less and less as we become more and more secure in our identity in Christ),
Back to Hebrews 6.
There are two views which I find to be acceptable and still not contradict either the John 10 passage, the Hebrews 7 passage, or any of the other passages which clearly communicate our security in Christ:
My preference is the first interpretation, but I can see how either can apply.
There are two teachers who communicate each of the above views beautifully:
Grace and peace to you,
-JGIG
. The Hebrews 6:4-6 verses can certainly be misunderstood if read out of context of the entire letter to the Hebrews (as with Hebrews 10:26-27).
The whole of Hebrews is written to communicate to Hebrews - both to Hebrew believers and Hebrews who have heard the Gospel and have not yet decided to believe in the Work of Christ - of the superiority of the New Covenant in Christ. A New Covenant which is based on better promises and mediated by a better High Priest.
The Old Covenant was one of going in and out of covenant with God based on one's actions; the New Covenant is one of security and adoption into God's family based on Christ's actions:
His Work of the Cross, the Resurrection, the Ascension, and His Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood.
Once we believe in the Work of Christ, we receive the gifts of forgiveness, righteousness, and eternal life. When we sin (and we all do, hopefully less and less as we become more and more secure in our identity in Christ),
Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. (from Heb. 7)
Back to Hebrews 6.
There are two views which I find to be acceptable and still not contradict either the John 10 passage, the Hebrews 7 passage, or any of the other passages which clearly communicate our security in Christ:
- The first view is that because we are so secure in Christ, it's impossible for the believer to be brought back to repentance unto salvation.
It's important to remember that the Biblical definition of repentance is to 'change one's mind and heart' - which is completely necessary for the unbeliever to become a believer in Christ - they must change their mind and heart about Who Christ is and what He has done for them as well as change their mind and heart about who they are and their inability to achieve their own righteousness (see Romans 3, 5, and 10).
Looking at the context of Hebrews 6:4-6, let's look at the verses preceding:
Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.3 And this we will do if God permits.
Reading carefully, and keeping in mind the exhortations in chapter 5 (13 for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child.), we can see that righteousness, in the New Covenant, comes as a gift.
The elementary doctrines of Christ before the Cross were the teachings of the Law - magnified to not only include outward actions, but also inward intentions. Jesus preached the Law to those under the Law - BEFORE the Cross. Repentance from dead works (rabbinical rules), faith in God, instructions about washings (mikvah), the laying on of hands (the transferring of one's sins by the priest to a sacrifice), resurrection of the dead (a big source of contention between the Pharisees and Sadducees), and eternal judgment -
Those are all teachings in the Old Covenant. Some do carry over into the New Covenant, but note this: They are NOT the word of righteousness in the New Covenant.
The word of righteousness in the New Covenant is believe in the Work of Christ and you are forgiven, given God's righteousness, sealed with the Holy Spirit, and given eternal life. On top of that, you have a Perfect, Permanent High Priest who always lives to intercede for you.
That is the word of righteousness in the New Covenant! And that is the word that the Hebrews were having a hard time grasping and why the letter to the Hebrews was penned.
In short, our security is based not on what we do or do not do, but on our faith in Who Christ is and what He has done and continues to do on our behalf.
So to repeat: It's impossible for the believer to be brought back to repentance because we are so secure in Christ. Because our salvation is secure and cannot be lost, it's impossible to come to Christ again - He never leaves us. To say that one must repent to come back to Christ is to say that some of their sins were not forgiven, and that puts Christ to open shame, because to be forgiven, blood must be shed, and Christ already did the Work of the Cross. Again, to say that what Christ did wasn't enough is to put Him to open shame. It's to say that He must be crucified all over again to provide for further forgiveness. And one thing that the letter to the Hebrews is VERY clear about is that Jesus' sacrifice was FINAL and ONCE for ALL sins (see Hebrews 10).
- The second view that I think is compatible with John 10 and other passages citing eternal security is that the Hebrews 6 passage is speaking of Hebrews who have heard the Gospel - they've tasted, considered, toyed with, but have not fully taken in and received the Gospel of the Work of Christ. They continue on in Moses, the Temple still in place, and those Hebrews, even though they had heard and considered the Gospel, did not really believe and put their faith in Christ.
Again, it would be impossible for them to be brought back to repentance (a change of mind and heart) because they had never repented unto salvation in the first place!
They are also unskilled in the word of righteousness; they are relying on the Temple practices to keep them 'right' with God instead of the Work of Christ, the Gospel, which, as explained above, is the TRUE word of righteousness after the Cross.
My preference is the first interpretation, but I can see how either can apply.
There are two teachers who communicate each of the above views beautifully:
- Hebrews 6:4-6 Can You Lose Your Salvation?
(View 1 - from more of a charismatic stream of faith. If the more conservative of you can get past the first few minutes, the very theologically solid teaching begins around minute 13.) - a. The Solid Food of Righteousness
b. Oaths and Anchors
(View 2 - from more of an evangelical view, also theologically sound.)
Grace and peace to you,
-JGIG
G
Neither is a lie .
The Hebrews 6:4-6 verses can certainly be misunderstood if read out of context of the entire letter to the Hebrews (as with Hebrews 10:26-27).
The whole of Hebrews is written to communicate to Hebrews - both to Hebrew believers and Hebrews who have heard the Gospel and have not yet decided to believe in the Work of Christ - of the superiority of the New Covenant in Christ. A New Covenant which is based on better promises and mediated by a better High Priest.
The Old Covenant was one of going in and out of covenant with God based on one's actions; the New Covenant is one of security and adoption into God's family based on Christ's actions:
His Work of the Cross, the Resurrection, the Ascension, and His Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood.
Once we believe in the Work of Christ, we receive the gifts of forgiveness, righteousness, and eternal life. When we sin (and we all do, hopefully less and less as we become more and more secure in our identity in Christ),
Back to Hebrews 6.
There are two views which I find to be acceptable and still not contradict either the John 10 passage, the Hebrews 7 passage, or any of the other passages which clearly communicate our security in Christ:
My preference is the first interpretation, but I can see how either can apply.
There are two teachers who communicate each of the above views beautifully:
Grace and peace to you,
-JGIG
. The Hebrews 6:4-6 verses can certainly be misunderstood if read out of context of the entire letter to the Hebrews (as with Hebrews 10:26-27).
The whole of Hebrews is written to communicate to Hebrews - both to Hebrew believers and Hebrews who have heard the Gospel and have not yet decided to believe in the Work of Christ - of the superiority of the New Covenant in Christ. A New Covenant which is based on better promises and mediated by a better High Priest.
The Old Covenant was one of going in and out of covenant with God based on one's actions; the New Covenant is one of security and adoption into God's family based on Christ's actions:
His Work of the Cross, the Resurrection, the Ascension, and His Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood.
Once we believe in the Work of Christ, we receive the gifts of forgiveness, righteousness, and eternal life. When we sin (and we all do, hopefully less and less as we become more and more secure in our identity in Christ),
Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. (from Heb. 7)
Back to Hebrews 6.
There are two views which I find to be acceptable and still not contradict either the John 10 passage, the Hebrews 7 passage, or any of the other passages which clearly communicate our security in Christ:
- The first view is that because we are so secure in Christ, it's impossible for the believer to be brought back to repentance unto salvation.
It's important to remember that the Biblical definition of repentance is to 'change one's mind and heart' - which is completely necessary for the unbeliever to become a believer in Christ - they must change their mind and heart about Who Christ is and what He has done for them as well as change their mind and heart about who they are and their inability to achieve their own righteousness (see Romans 3, 5, and 10).
Looking at the context of Hebrews 6:4-6, let's look at the verses preceding:
Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.3 And this we will do if God permits.
Reading carefully, and keeping in mind the exhortations in chapter 5 (13 for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child.), we can see that righteousness, in the New Covenant, comes as a gift.
The elementary doctrines of Christ before the Cross were the teachings of the Law - magnified to not only include outward actions, but also inward intentions. Jesus preached the Law to those under the Law - BEFORE the Cross. Repentance from dead works (rabbinical rules), faith in God, instructions about washings (mikvah), the laying on of hands (the transferring of one's sins by the priest to a sacrifice), resurrection of the dead (a big source of contention between the Pharisees and Sadducees), and eternal judgment -
Those are all teachings in the Old Covenant. Some do carry over into the New Covenant, but note this: They are NOT the word of righteousness in the New Covenant.
The word of righteousness in the New Covenant is believe in the Work of Christ and you are forgiven, given God's righteousness, sealed with the Holy Spirit, and given eternal life. On top of that, you have a Perfect, Permanent High Priest who always lives to intercede for you.
That is the word of righteousness in the New Covenant! And that is the word that the Hebrews were having a hard time grasping and why the letter to the Hebrews was penned.
In short, our security is based not on what we do or do not do, but on our faith in Who Christ is and what He has done and continues to do on our behalf.
So to repeat: It's impossible for the believer to be brought back to repentance because we are so secure in Christ. Because our salvation is secure and cannot be lost, it's impossible to come to Christ again - He never leaves us. To say that one must repent to come back to Christ is to say that some of their sins were not forgiven, and that puts Christ to open shame, because to be forgiven, blood must be shed, and Christ already did the Work of the Cross. Again, to say that what Christ did wasn't enough is to put Him to open shame. It's to say that He must be crucified all over again to provide for further forgiveness. And one thing that the letter to the Hebrews is VERY clear about is that Jesus' sacrifice was FINAL and ONCE for ALL sins (see Hebrews 10).
- The second view that I think is compatible with John 10 and other passages citing eternal security is that the Hebrews 6 passage is speaking of Hebrews who have heard the Gospel - they've tasted, considered, toyed with, but have not fully taken in and received the Gospel of the Work of Christ. They continue on in Moses, the Temple still in place, and those Hebrews, even though they had heard and considered the Gospel, did not really believe and put their faith in Christ.
Again, it would be impossible for them to be brought back to repentance (a change of mind and heart) because they had never repented unto salvation in the first place!
They are also unskilled in the word of righteousness; they are relying on the Temple practices to keep them 'right' with God instead of the Work of Christ, the Gospel, which, as explained above, is the TRUE word of righteousness after the Cross.
My preference is the first interpretation, but I can see how either can apply.
There are two teachers who communicate each of the above views beautifully:
- Hebrews 6:4-6 Can You Lose Your Salvation?
(View 1 - from more of a charismatic stream of faith. If the more conservative of you can get past the first few minutes, the very theologically solid teaching begins around minute 13.) - a. The Solid Food of Righteousness
b. Oaths and Anchors
(View 2 - from more of an evangelical view, also theologically sound.)
Grace and peace to you,
-JGIG
It's funny how verses supporting OSAS are all taken at face value, while the opposite verses are all taken as hypothetical hyperbole. Sounds like having your cake and eating it too.
I still stand by the op list. Because I choose to take all of Gods word at face value, and don't care to discount a single word of it like so many of you do.
But again, in the end, unless a believer is considering renouncing his faith, it's a moot subject.
On to the next... have we rehashed the gifts lately? lol!
I still stand by the op list. Because I choose to take all of Gods word at face value, and don't care to discount a single word of it like so many of you do.
But again, in the end, unless a believer is considering renouncing his faith, it's a moot subject.
On to the next... have we rehashed the gifts lately?
lol!Oops, almost forgot. I was going to give one more example.
We had a doggy door. One day a stray cat found it and decided it was in his best interest to enter the house. We adopted the kitty into the family, and treated it as one of our own. We were never going to turn it away, toss it out, or forsake it. We in effect offered it 'eternal' life in our house.
But we never locked the doggy door. Even tho we had sworn to care for it for life and never turn it away, the cat was still free to walk back out the door and be on it's own way.
That is the issue in a nut shell. Once we are God's He promises to keep us always. But He never imprisons us. The door of faith is always open.
See ya on the other side!
We had a doggy door. One day a stray cat found it and decided it was in his best interest to enter the house. We adopted the kitty into the family, and treated it as one of our own. We were never going to turn it away, toss it out, or forsake it. We in effect offered it 'eternal' life in our house.
But we never locked the doggy door. Even tho we had sworn to care for it for life and never turn it away, the cat was still free to walk back out the door and be on it's own way.
That is the issue in a nut shell. Once we are God's He promises to keep us always. But He never imprisons us. The door of faith is always open.
See ya on the other side!
Tragic that there are some that still trust into self instead of Christ and his saving faith....what a tragic day it will be when they boast of self and their own works as their ticket to enter and he states clearly that he never knew them........WHY? Because they trusted self and their own works and abilitites while believing erronously that they could lose that which is beyond the ability to lose!
What is that supposed to be an example of? Your misunderstanding? It is a good example of a bad example, I'll have to give you that.
Psalm 139:7-14
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
[SUP]8 [/SUP]If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
I suppose if you think you can walk away any time you want then you put yourself in the place of God. I suppose if you think your decisions can foil Gods Plans then you must think very highly of yourself. I'm not sure how you can come to Christ and still believe those silly things. It makes me wonder how you can be deceived so badly. And then teach those deceptions to others. Maybe I already figured it out in the 2nd sentence.
Psalm 139:7-14
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
[SUP]8 [/SUP]If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
I suppose if you think you can walk away any time you want then you put yourself in the place of God. I suppose if you think your decisions can foil Gods Plans then you must think very highly of yourself. I'm not sure how you can come to Christ and still believe those silly things. It makes me wonder how you can be deceived so badly. And then teach those deceptions to others. Maybe I already figured it out in the 2nd sentence.