Torah and Old Covenant Observance Causes Division

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sparkman

Guest
#1
[SUP]It is significant to me that many who claim the Old Covenant elements of the Sabbath, annual festivals, clean and unclean meats and physical circumcision still apply explicitly or implicitly accuse other Christians of being in sin.

The writings of the Apostle Paul indicate that this is not a new thing; those who claim the Old Covenant and ceremonial and ritualistic elements of it continue to apply to New Covenant Christians have been around since his day:


Galatians 4:21-31 21 [/SUP]Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? [SUP]22 [/SUP]For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia;[SUP][a][/SUP] she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. [SUP]26 [/SUP]But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. [SUP]27 [/SUP]For it is written,

“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband.”



[SUP]28 [/SUP]Now you,[SUP][b][/SUP] brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. [SUP]29 [/SUP]But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. [SUP]30 [/SUP]But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” [SUP]31 [/SUP]So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.


Colossians 2:16-17 [SUP]16 [/SUP]Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. [SUP]17 [/SUP]These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

Another thing that is abundantly clear to me is that those claiming that Old Covenant elements apply to New Covenant Christians are the ones who are teaching the false gospel, which focuses on these Old Covenant elements rather than placing one's faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, rather than other Christians, who they accuse of teaching a false form of Christianity .

Many Sabbathkeepers believe that both Catholics and Protestants are following a false gospel which causes them to worship on Sunday, in violation of the Saturday Sabbath.

These verses are used often by some Sabbathkeepers to indicate that other Christians are following a false gospel:

Galatians 1:6-9 [SUP]6 [/SUP]I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— [SUP]7 [/SUP]not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. [SUP]8 [/SUP]But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. [SUP]9 [/SUP]As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.


These very verses were constantly used within Armstrongism to teach that regular Christianity was teaching a false gospel that was against God's law, particularly the Old Covenant elements of the Sabbath, annual festivals, and clean and unclean meats. How could I be so blind as not to see that they in fact were the ones teaching the false gospel that the book of Galatians addresses? Galatians is not about antinomianism; it is about insisting that elements of the Old Covenant apply to New Covenant Christians.

Here are other verses that talk about Judaizers attempting to do the same thing:

Galatians 5:1-12 1It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. 2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. 7You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth? 8That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9“A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough.” 10I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty. 11Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

Philippians 3:1-3 1Further, my brothers and sisters, rejoice in the Lord! It is no trouble for me to write the same things to you again, and it is a safeguard for you. 2Watch out for those dogs, those evildoers, those mutilators of the flesh. 3For it is we who are the circumcision, we who serve God by his Spirit, who boast in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh— 4though I myself have reasons for such confidence.

Note that while some of these verses refer directly to physical circumcision, this was understood to be the entry sign of the Old Covenant, and meant that the individual was accepting the Old Covenant and its stipulations including the above elements.

The Old Covenant ceremonial and ritualistic elements, including the Sabbath, annual festivals and clean/unclean meat laws were meant to draw a distinction between Israel and the surrounding nations. That is one of the reasons why the Old Covenant law was abolished in Christ:

Ephesians 2: 11Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.

Note that the Old Covenant law was abolished to unite both Jews and Gentiles. It does not say that the Gentiles were required to observe the Old Covenant law; it says that the Old Covenant law was abolished.

It was meant, in part, to distinguish Israel from the neighboring nations, and it has this same effect in the body of Christ. Those who are "Torah Observant" accuse those who are not of being in sin, either explicitly or implicitly, due to these ceremonial and ritualistic elements of the Sabbath, annual festivals, and clean/unclean meat laws.

I know this myself because I judged non-Sabbathkeepers, and everyone outside of my group, as being unsaved and still in their sins and following a false Christianity due to the teachings of Armstrongism. That's something I've repented of, and I will never again be associated with any Sabbathkeeping group for this reason.

Other groups may not go to the extent that I did with total denial of the salvation of others, but they infer that they are living in sin and are less obedient and pleasing to God than the non-Torah observer.

I would encourage everyone to place their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, and not be caught up in this error of the Galatians. This error is being taught by groups such as Armstrongite churches, Seventh Day Adventists, and many Hebrew Roots groups.

I believe the bigger danger is some groups within the Hebrew Roots Movement. My understanding is that the roadmap in many cases leads to individuals accepting full Judaism and denying any Christian profession they had. This problem has been commented upon by Dr. Michael Brown and others. Some believers ultimately end up denying the Trinity and the full deity of Jesus Christ in favor of a Unitarian Monotheism view of God's nature. In addition, they begin to deny the writings of the Apostle Paul (which are obviously in conflict with their views) and accept false writings such as the Kabbala.

I would suggest the book Sabbath in Christ by Dale Ratzlaff if anyone is troubled by those who claim these elements of the Old Covenant still apply. It is very good at covering the differences between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.
 
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sparkman

Guest
#2
In making the above remarks, I know some Sabbathkeepers or Torah Observers don't take the approach that these practices are requirements, conditions or necessary fruits of salvation, and do not say those who aren't keeping these elements are sinning. My remarks do not apply to them. MarcR would be such an individual.
 
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sparkman

Guest
#3
Here's an example of how the false view of history that has been taught by some "Torah Observant" groups accuses orthodox Christianity of being a false Christianity:

It's a widely held belief that the Great Whore in Revelation is the Vatican. It matches every description. She "sits on many waters", introduced countless paganistic abominations into christianity, has persecuted the saints, banned the Bible in the middle ages, and has committed fornication with the kings of the earth.

The "harlot daughters" that came out of her are likely the protestant churches. Most of the catholic churche's heresies carried over to them.

So it should be of no suprise that none of these churches obey the sabbath command, and instead honor sunday.
 
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sparkman

Guest
#4
Here's another example of the condemnation that "Torah Observant" organizations place upon non-"Torah Observant" Christians. 119ministries is the one who produced the meme that you can find on the associated post if you click the link.

Notice that a man who does not keep the Old Covenant is pictured as suffering torment, and the poster, who is a "Torah Observant" Christian laughs about this meme. This is evidence of a very corrupt mind; to take joy in the suffering of another individual.

He claims to be "Torah Observant" but has had at least 3 other usernames using false information that I know about...and constantly regurgitates 119ministries teachings transcripted from their videos and links to Restored Church of God videos. He praises his worship on the Sabbath but has admitted to me that he has no problem with lying and deceit to regain access.

By the way, "Torah Observers" here have told me that 119ministries is a good source of information.

View attachment 120243

"But Jesus! My pastor told me God's law is just for JEWS!"

lol
 
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sparkman

Guest
#5
I agree JGIG. It is about Christ and love. But here's your problem. Like a lot of "christians" nowadays, you're stuck on milk. Accepting christ as your savior is only the beginning of your walk with him. From the point on, you're supposed to grow in knowledge of how Christ lived, and follow his example. So now, it's time to stop sucking on your bottle (figuratively speaking) and move up to solid foods. Try the steak of God's word. Obedience to his commandments.

"This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds." (Hebrews 10:16)

But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! (2 Peter 3:18)

If you're walking in the spirit, the spirit will lead you to follow God's commandments. If you're walking in the flesh, you will be hostile to God, and reject his commandments.

The carnal mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to the law of God, nor can it. (Romans 8:7)

Here's another example. Those who are not keeping the Old Covenant are being condemned here as unsaved. Notice the quotation remarks "Christians". This is an inference that those who don't follow the Old Covenant are unsaved.

Notice which individuals liked this comment. Go back to the original post.
 
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sparkman

Guest
#6
@Cigarman

That's what's known as "verse plucking". Quoting a random verse from Paul's letters (which Peter warned would be misused by the ignorant and unstable) and making up your own interpretation for it, instead of using the interpretation given.

Here's the scripture you just mentioned:

For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Just because Paul mentions "circumcision of the heart" you automatically assume that means we should throw away physical circumcision, even though the scripture says no such thing. That's unstability.

It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law. (Luke 16:17)


Notice how this Torah Observer calls a non-Torah observer "ignorant and unstable".
 
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sparkman

Guest
#7
Note that non-Torah observers are being threatened with God's wrath here:

@ Jeff

Thanks for quoting my favorite psalm! I'm glad to see you know the truth. We live in a time where God is gradually calling his people back to his holy commandments. The majority of the discieved world isn't going to listen. But those who do will likely be protected when he eventually starts pouring out his wrath. Thanks for stopping by.
 
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sparkman

Guest
#8
Notice that non-Torah observers are called "lukewarm" here:

I know Marc. I've already heard all manner of excuses for not obeying the law.

"It can't make you righteous, so why obey it?" "Jesus fulfilled it" "We are not under law but under grace"

That's what lukewarm christians do. They make up excuses instead of just listening to God. I don't follow the torah to be called righteous. It's just about making God happy, and being obedient.

Whoever says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. (1 John 2:4)
 
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sparkman

Guest
#10
Here's another one that would have been good for the list:

If Jesus came to change the law of God, why does Daniel 7:25 say the one who will actually try to do this will be the anti-christ?

He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time. (Daniel 7:25)

Funny, isn't it? :) When the ignorant and unstable say that Jesus Christ changed God's law (which he didn't), they're actually accusing him of the very thing his enemy will do. It's amazing how discieved the world is.

This great dragon--the ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, the one deceiving the whole world--was thrown down to the earth with all his angels. (revelation 12:9)


Notice the inference that those who do not follow Old Covenant ceremonial and ritualistic laws such as the Sabbath, Holy Days, and clean/unclean meats are following Satan's deception. This is a common believe amongst those who claim the Old Covenant still applies to New Covenant Christians.
 
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sparkman

Guest
#11
Although, there are certain commandments in the Torah that are more serious than others. For examle, breaking the sabbath command was a crime that carried the death penalty. Probably why it was included as one of the ten commandments. So I would be especially mindful of those.
Notice the inference that Sabbathbreaking deserves death.
 
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Rachid

Guest
#12
well, I didn't know that sabbath means something For christians But i think we don't have To keep sabbath we are free in jesus .
 
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sparkman

Guest
#13
well, I didn't know that sabbath means something For christians But i think we don't have To keep sabbath we are free in jesus .
This is correct. The Sabbath is part of the Old Covenant but some believe it is not.
 
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Gr8grace

Guest
#14
In making the above remarks, I know some Sabbathkeepers or Torah Observers don't take the approach that these practices are requirements, conditions or necessary fruits of salvation, and do not say those who aren't keeping these elements are sinning. My remarks do not apply to them. MarcR would be such an individual.
But you do understand that Marc likes classical music right? He is on dangerous Ground!
 
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sparkman

Guest
#15
But you do understand that Marc likes classical music right? He is on dangerous Ground!
So do I, a little. But I like Vertical Church band most.
 
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sparkman

Guest
#16
I was thinking about this topic again yesterday after seeing more comments about non-Sabbathkeepers following a counterfeit Christianity.

The fellowship I've been attending supports an orphanage in India. The children at this school are fed, clothed, and provided a good Christian education. My understanding is that they memorize a lot of Bible verses. There is no doubt in my mind that many of these kids will be used to reach their fellow countrymen with the Gospel one day.

The church conducted a donation drive and was able to construct a new building for them. The old building was only about the size of a 2 bedroom apartment. The new building can house 60 children and has two levels, and additional levels can be added onto.

I have been attending there a year and have donated little due to being on disability for a long period of time. So, I am not bragging on myself but on them.

It is true that the Sabbath was a sign of those who were under the Old Covenant. An individual would know an Israelite by the fact that he kept the Sabbath. The New Covenant sign of a Christian, though, is love.

John 13:35 By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.

So, it makes me both sad and angry that some Sabbath and Torah observers accuse Sundaygoers of following a counterfeit form of Christianity, and being unsaved. I want to ask them what they are doing to alleviate and relieve the suffering of those in the world.

The Sabbathkeeping church to which I belonged spent funds from the widows and orphans' tithe to buy a corporate jet. The founder lived in a mansion, and was driven in Rolls Royces. His lifestyle was very lavish. He justified it by saying that God was a God of quality, and that anything less than this would be unfitting for his Apostle.

Besides doctrinal issues with claiming that the Old Covenant is still in effect, I also am faced with judging the fruits. The fruits of the fellowship I'm attending now are very good. It angers and sickens me that individuals like this are accused by some Sabbathkeepers and Torah Observers of being unsaved or less spiritual than themselves over an issue of days. Who are they to judge those who Christ died for?

Rom 7:6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

They are using their freedom from the law to serve others such as the children in the orphanage. They are able to give to such causes because they don't have 23% of their yearly income allocated to an organization and festival observance. They have been freed from the law to Christian service like this.

Anyways, I would be very careful to avoid persecute individuals who have been bought with the blood of Jesus Christ and who are following Him loyally and alleviating the suffering of the world in a tangible way. Having been on both sides of the fence, I see better fruits with this fellowship than my Sabbathkeeping fellowship. I realize that they were burdened by a system which made it hard for them to serve like they would have otherwise. Despite their deluded theology, I don't doubt that some of them were genuine believers. God is merciful to doctrinal confusion too.
 
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sparkman

Guest
#17
James 1:27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
11,875
6,393
113
#18
James 1:27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.
and sadly this has been forgotten about by so many churches and denoninations . we are supposed to be doing this, leading others to Christ, helping the poor, etc.. but to many would rather bang on their brothers and sisters in Christ about things like this.
 
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sparkman

Guest
#19
Here's another example of an individual judging non-Sabbathkeepers as "false Christians".

As an ex-Sabbathkeeper, I denied the Christianity of others that didn't keep the Sabbath too. Like I have said, this assertion is very common, and I will not associate with Sabbathkeepers largely due to the attitudes of many of them in this regard.

This guy is particularly obnoxious and has been here under several different usernames.

I would ask him..where are your works? The Sabbathkeepers I associated with did VERY LITTLE to alleviate the suffering of those in the world. The Sundaygoers I am associated with now are supporting an orphanage of 60 Indian children, and built them a new facility so they would have more room. Where are your works?

When you face God, are you going to proclaim your righteousness in keeping the Torah? Is that your basis for righteousness?

You aren't even keeping it..you're just fooling yourself. Setting up multiple user IDs with fake information is lying, which is just as much of a commandment as keeping the Sabbath.

The Sabbath is sometimes referred to as the "test commandment". It's the one that false christians will almost always refuse to obey. They need to come out of Babylon and embrace the truth of God's word.
 
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sparkman

Guest
#20
An additional point I'd like to make with regards to Colossians 2:16-17..this point involves considering three different Scriptures (not of necessity but for support):

Colossians 2:16-17 [SUP]16 [/SUP]Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. [SUP]17 [/SUP]These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

Hebrews 9:10-12 [SUP]10 [/SUP]but deal only with food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until the time of reformation. [SUP]11 [/SUP]But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come,[SUP][a][/SUP] then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) [SUP]12 [/SUP]he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

Galatians 3:16-25 [SUP]16 [/SUP]Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. [SUP]17 [/SUP]This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. [SUP]22 [/SUP]But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. [SUP]23 [/SUP]Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. [SUP]24 [/SUP]So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. [SUP]25 [/SUP]But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,

Here is the reasoning:

1. Colossians 2:16-17 groups food and drink offerings, the Sabbath and annual festivals together.

2. Food and drink offerings were imposed until the time of Reformation..which was when Christ came and died for our sins
per Hebrews 9:10-12.

3. Galatians 3:16-25 provides further support that the Old Covenant was only in effect until Christ came and died for our
sins. It is no longer in effect.

4. Since Colossians 2:16-17 groups food and drink offerings, the Sabbath and annual festivals together, they are under the
same level of applicability to the New Covenant believer.

5. Additionally, Hebrews 10:1-2 uses the same language of "shadows of things to come" in reference to animal sacrifices that
is applied to the Sabbath and Holy Days, placing them in this same category of inapplicable things.

As indicated on other posts, an additional point is that Hebrews 10:1-2 uses the same reference of "shadow of things to come" in reference to the animal sacrifices as Colossians 2:16-17 uses in regards to the Sabbath, Holy Days, food and drink offerings.

Hebrews 10:1-2 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins?


The reasoning that the Sabbath and Holy Days do not apply to New Covenant Christians is inescapable. If someone wants to observe them, fine, but don't accuse other non-observant individuals of being false Christians or being in sin.