what is the gospel?

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KennethC

Guest
There are two different kinds of obedience (works).

There is....

#1. True Obedience - Where a believer yields to God and allows Him to do the good work in you.
#2. False Obedience - Where it is the believer merely obeying an outward commandment so as to earn salvation.

#1 Type Obedience is based on the foundation of Jesus Christ where they had repented of their sins and accepted Jesus as their Savior. They trust in His grace for salvation as a free gift and not by anything that they have done in the past. They then trust Christ to continue to work in their lives with His goodness. For there is none good but God. For God is love. For I am nothing. Christ is everything. For a believer that has Christ living within them has eternal life and salvation. Then the good fruit of the Spirit will flow within their lives. They will be moved by the God (living within them) to walk after the Spirit. Works are the fruit or result of a genuine saving faith. All glory, honor, and power goes to Jesus Christ for the "good work" God does witin our lives. If a believer stumbles or sins, they have God's grace to fall back upon (For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins - 1 John 1:9). This promise in 1 John 1:9 that we can bank on is not a license to sin, but it is a promise so as to overcome sin (And be a slave to righteousness instead of a slave to sin).

#2. Type Obedience is merely an outward obedience to a certain set of laws or rules in order to be saved. It does not emphasize the importance of Jesus Christ and what He has done for us. Nor does it suggest that Christ is the One who is doing the good work in you. It emphasizes "self" and what you do to try and save yourself, versus trusting in God to do the good work in you. It is an outward obedience to the letter. But there is no life within the person. This is Works Salvationism. Many in this camp believe you have to obey both the Old Law and the New in order to be right with God. But this is wrong. We cannot be justified by merely just keeping the Law of Moses. For the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12).

Well I would add to point #1 is that the bible shows we do this obedience out of love for Him, as Jesus and Paul both made this evident that by love fulfills and upholds the commands and teachings of the Lord.

But yes I see what you are saying and my point was that those of the OSAS or eternal security doctrines badly do is falsely toss that label of works salvationists on all who instruct on the fruits of the Spirit which is the walk in the faith.

They want to take away from the active side of a true saving faith through Christ that those of us who have that true saving faith it will show in our actions and speech. We are called to reprove, rebuke, and then edify others by His word.

I see some on here try to claim they are rebuking but in their attempt they are using very little word of God, and are just mainly belittling and demeaning the other person instead. There is one on here that I have seen others constantly agree with who he 95% of time never uses scripture, and does not give book, epistle, chapter, or verse in his responses. That I am sorry is not the sign of sound teaching in the word to others.

For the sword is the word of God, not our own opinions or man taught understandings !!!
 
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Romans 7 Paul calls himself carnal minded sold under sin, but in Romans 8 he states he now walks by the Spirit and is no longer carnally minded as that way leads to eternal death.
Yes, I was going to point this out, as well. In Romans 7:14, Paul says he is sold under sin but in Romans 8:2 Paul says he is free from sin. This means Paul was talking from two different persepectives. In Romans 7 he is primarily talking about his struggle with sin before he was a Christian and at the very end of Romans 7 and then in Romans 8, he is talking about his experience as a Christian.
 
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WoundedWarrior

Guest
Most Christians are wrong for believing that Romans chapter 7 is talking about Paul struggling with sin as a Christian. Actually, Paul is speaking to the church of Rome who are trying to keep the Law of Moses. He is referring to his experience as an outward Jew (Before He came to Christ) trying to obey the Law. Paul gives these Christians the solution to overcome their struggle to keep the Law with Romans 8:1 (in the next chapter).

#1. Paul is repeating a point He made in chapter 5.
For there was no such thing as chapter breaks in the Bible. They were added later. Anyways, to understand chapter 7, you have to know what was going on in chapter 5.

In Romans chapter 5 we learn, "For by one man sin entered the world and by one man many shall be justified."

Now, under the Mosaic Law there was an accounting and those under that Law had to bring their sacrifices accordingly. Prior to the Mosaic law, the Patriarchs offered sacrifices to God, but not as a result of particular sins–not because God said to them if you do such and such sin then you have to offer such and such sacrifices. The sacrifices of the Patriarchs were offered based upon faith, not law. Which explains the context of Romans 5:13.

For sin was no doubt in the world prior to the law and so was transgression, hence there had to be some kind of law. For obviously Paul does not contradict himself here. He says that sin was not accounted until the law came. The point is that there was no law from God to this point that had been codified, that is, placed into written form. Before the Law of Moses, sin was not imputed because there was no written Law to transgress. Then how was sin imputed to those living before the written Law? Well, sin was imputed to those living before the Law because the "death of sin" was passed down to them thru Adam's disobedience (Romans 5:12, 14, 17, 18, 19). Those living before the Law, were exclusively justified by faith and those who did not live by faith were condemned. In other words, the Old Testament saint living before the Law was justified by following Romans 8:1. Yes, they did not know who Christ was yet or this passage, but the Spirit of Christ was in fact within the prophets, though (1 Peter 1:10, 11).



This point of the Law in Romans 5 is made in Romans chapter 7. Compare Romans 7:8-10 with Romans 5:12-14 and Romans 5:20.

#2. This passage is an answer to the question “Did that which was good [the Law], then, become death to me?” (Romans 7:13) Paul is explaining how the Old Testament Law – good in itself – was used by sin to bring death to pre-Christians.

#3. The majority of Romans 7 deals with Paul's struggle with sin. However, at the end of that chapter he gives us the solution which is Jesus Christ. This means Paul's struggle with sin was before He came to Christ. It would not make any sense to say that Paul struggle with sin and then say the solution is Jesus if he already had Jesus.

#4. Paul’s only positive description of the “me” in this passage is elsewhere applied to Jews, not Christians. “I agree with the Law, that the Law is good” (Romans 7:16) and “I delight in the law of God in my inner man” (Romans 7:22). But this is more in line with Paul’s description of Jews: “If you call yourself a Jew and rely on the Law” (Romans 2:17). In Romans, Christians have “died to the Law” (Romans 7:4) and thus “delight in the Law” is not most naturally applied to Christians.

#5. Paul’s negative descriptions of the “me” in the passage are elsewhere applied to Jews, not Christians.

“I am fleshly, sold into bondage to sin” (Romans 7:14). Compare to “we were in the flesh” (Romans 7:5); “we were freed from sin” (Romans 6:18); “we were slaves to sin” (Romans 6:20); and “you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit” (Romans 8:9).​
“But I see another law… making me a prisoner of the law of sin” (Romans 7:23). Compare to “but now, freed from sin and enslaved to God” (Romans 6:22); and “the law of the Spirit of life has set you free from the law of sin and death” (Romans 8:2).​
If Paul says that Christian are no longer in the flesh and are no longer slaves or prisoners of sin, then it seems to make the most sense to say that he is talking about his pre-Christian experience when he was Jew here in Romans 7:14-25.​

Anyways, I hope this helps.

And may God bless you.


Sources Used:
Paul is not Talking about Himself: Why I take the "pre-Christian" Reading of Romans 7:14-25
Theology Online | Christian Forums & More - View Single Post - ECT Christians and the Old Testament
Your second source is an invalid link. However, thanks for sharing.

I have heard of OSAS, but I have not heard of what you refer to as Sinless Perfection.

I am 100% certain that this Sinless Perfection cannot be achieved by any humans, while on this earth.
I am curious, as to whether you believe it can.

I believe this Sinless Perfection is not achieved, until you reach God's Kingdom in what I'll refer to as, the afterlife.

Jesus is the only Being who has lived in the Flesh without sinning.
 
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Well I would add to point #1 is that the bible shows we do this obedience out of love for Him, as Jesus and Paul both made this evident that by love fulfills and upholds the commands and teachings of the Lord.

But yes I see what you are saying and my point was that those of the OSAS or eternal security doctrines badly do is falsely toss that label of works salvationists on all who instruct on the fruits of the Spirit which is the walk in the faith.

They want to take away from the active side of a true saving faith through Christ that those of us who have that true saving faith it will show in our actions and speech. We are called to reprove, rebuke, and then edify others by His word.

I see some on here try to claim they are rebuking but in their attempt they are using very little word of God, and are just mainly belittling and demeaning the other person instead. There is one on here that I have seen others constantly agree with who he 95% of time never uses scripture, and does not give book, epistle, chapter, or verse in his responses. That I am sorry is not the sign of sound teaching in the word to others.

For the sword is the word of God, not our own opinions or man taught understandings !!!
I agree we are not to attack one another as if we were a wolf or as if we were like a "grasshopper mouse" (who is like a minature little wolf - see this video here), but we are to love one another and speak the truth of God's Word in love.

But I believe we are not capable of having of the love of God unless we are born again spiritually (Which is done by repenting of our sins and accepting Him as our Savior). Then all Godly love from that point comes from Him. Yes, unbelievers can love their own and do loving things, but it is not the same as Godly love. For God is love. True love (Which is shown to us in 1 Corinthians 13). For His love is pure and truly good. This is the love that flows within the believer's life and it is not the love that originates from within the believer. Yes, we are given a new heart and a new spirit, but I believe these things are new so as to receptive to the love of God. We are not the source of that love. God is the source of all Godly love and all righteousness. For in and of myself, I am nothing. It is only in Christ that I have value and true goodness. For the 24 elders had cast down their crowns before Jesus. For all glory, honor, and power will go to Jesus. Why? Because it was Christ working within them.
 
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The gospel is JESUS CHRIST is LORD and him crucified for the sins of HIS people.
"ALL" people! Lets stick with scripture.
(John 1:29 [HCSB])
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Here is the Lamb of God,
who takes away the sin of the world!
 
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Your second source is an invalid link. However, thanks for sharing.

I have heard of OSAS, but I have not heard of what you refer to as Sinless Perfection.

I am 100% certain that this Sinless Perfection cannot be achieved by any humans, while on this earth.
I am curious, as to whether you believe it can.

I believe this Sinless Perfection is not achieved, until you reach God's Kingdom in what I'll refer to as, the afterlife.

Jesus is the only Being who has lived in the Flesh without sinning.
Yes, the source used to be valid at one time. They took the site down. But I feel I should still provide the source because not all of the words were originally mine. Besides, in time, I now do not agree 100% with what the person said about Romans 7-8 who I would agree with more in the Article Debate).

As for Sinless Perfectionism: Well, I would encourage you to check out the verses put forth by Alan Ballou in his short 20 minute video here:

[VIDEO=youtube;-AQtoN_HdIo]https://youtu.be/-AQtoN_HdIo[/VIDEO]
 
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WoundedWarrior

Guest
If you disconnect a new heart from its source, what happens?
 
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WoundedWarrior

Guest
As for Sinless Perfectionism: Well, I would encourage you to check out the verses put forth by Alan Ballou in his short 20 minute video here:
Thanks, but no thanks - I'm not interested in watching "short" 20-minute video clips produced by people I've never heard of.
I'm more interested in YOU and the real, live people who are a part of this online community, here at CC.

I am still curious as to whether you believe this "Sinless Perfection" can be achieved, while we exist in our current state - flesh and blood, on planet Earth.
 
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I don't understand why you think Crossnote is judging you. He asked a simple question. There is a way that seems right to man. I believe that way is to trust in ANYTHING other than the shed blood of our Lord and Savior. It's His righteousness that saves us. When you think you have to do xyz... PLUS Jesus, then you are not really trusting Jesus' perfect sacrifice.

ANY good works we do in the Spirit are EVIDENCE of a changed, saved heart. They have ZERO power to save you. JESUS, and JESUS ALONE DID THAT! Praise God!
You miss the point of the post. So who saved Noah and Abraham? And who made them righteous? And how can Noah be a preacher of righteousness if he didn't have faith in Christ? How could he preach righteousness if he had none? How could he preach for people to do righteousness if there wasn't any to be practiced? You don't know how silly that sounds and unconnected from scripture it really is. Its just sound bytes you have been taught. Well meaning sound bytes, but still sound bytes. Sorry!
 
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Thanks, but no thanks - I'm not interested in watching "short" 20-minute video clips produced by people I've never heard of.
I'm more interested in YOU and the real, live people who are a part of this online community, here at CC.

I am still curious as to whether you believe this "Sinless Perfection" can be achieved, while we exist in our current state - flesh and blood, on planet Earth.
Let me ask you a question. If there was a slim chance that the Bible taught that you can stop sinning, would you not want to jump at the chance so as to please your LORD? I say this because when a person says they will always sin the rest of their life, it sounds a little suspicious to me like they have a hidden motive so as to just merely hold onto their sin. As a matter of fact, this is a big problem according to the Bible. For the "Condemnation" mentioned in Scripture (John 3:19-21) says all who do evil hate the Light (GOD).

Also, the Bereans were more noble because they kept an open mind in addition to seeking the Scriptures to see whether those things be so or not. So whether I relay the same information here in this forum or whether you watch the video should not really make a difference. Information is still information regardless of how it is conveyed.

But what verses in Scripture teach that we can stop sinning and that we can be perfect?

I was actually creating a personal gathering of my own verses in Scripture (about a week ago) so as to post in another thread here at CC soon. For I have found verses that he does not address.
 
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WoundedWarrior

Guest
...when a person says they will always sin the rest of their life, it sounds a little suspicious to me like they have a hidden motive so as to just merely hold onto their sin.
It is suspicious to me, when a person says they can achieve perfection -- or never sin again...ever.

To me, it's like saying a person has learned to live without breathing.

But what verses in Scripture teach that we can stop sinning and that we can be perfect?
Good question. Have you answered it?
 
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It is suspicious to me, when a person says they can achieve perfection -- or never sin again...ever.
I am not claiming I have achieved perfection. I do not abide in habitual unrepentant sin that leads unto death. My position is to change your mind on what the Bible says. Yes, the end goal is for us all to stop sinning. But many times this is not an overnight process. But Jesus says we are to be perfect as His Heavenly Father is perfect. If Jesus did not believe we could be perfect then He would have been lying to us. Jesus also told the woman caught in the act of adultery to sin no more. Again, if she could never sin again, then this would have been a cruel joke that Christ would have been playing on her if she could never indeed could sin no more.

To me, it's like saying a person has learned to live without breathing.
So you do not believe you can breath and live spiritually if you do not sin? That doesn't make any sense. Jesus said to the Pharisees that he that sins is a slave to sin. Jesus did not say this favorably of the Pharisees in John 8.

Good question. Have you answered it?
Yes, many times on this forum. Some of the big verses that teach that you can stop sinning is 1 Peter 4:1, Galatians 5:24, and Romans 6:14 for starters. There are other verses (of course). Well, that is if you believe the Bible in what it says on this point of topic plainly. However, whatever you do not believe in Scripture, you cannot receive into your heart and bear fruit.
 
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Galahad

Guest
Your second source is an invalid link. However, thanks for sharing.

I have heard of OSAS, but I have not heard of what you refer to as Sinless Perfection.

I am 100% certain that this Sinless Perfection cannot be achieved by any humans, while on this earth.
I am curious, as to whether you believe it can.

I believe this Sinless Perfection is not achieved, until you reach God's Kingdom in what I'll refer to as, the afterlife.

Jesus is the only Being who has lived in the Flesh without sinning.
Amen! And Amen!

Jason, WoundedWarrior is right.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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Amen! And Amen!

Jason, WoundedWarrior is right.
Uh, no he is not right. I am sorry. The idea that you will always be a slave to your sin (With the thinking you are saved) is not Scriptural. The Bible teaches that we can overcome sin. For Jesus Christ was manifested to destroy the works of the devil within your life. God's people are not a conquered people to sin. For Paul says sin shall not have dominion over you. Jesus came to set the captives free. You cannot be free if you are still a slave to sin or if you are not on your way to overcoming sin.
 
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WoundedWarrior

Guest
Uh, no he is not right. I am sorry. The idea that you will always be a slave to your sin (With the thinking you are saved) is not Scriptural. The Bible teaches that we can overcome sin. For Jesus Christ was manifested to destroy the works of the devil within your life. God's people are not a conquered people to sin. For Paul says sin shall not have dominion over you. Jesus came to set the captives free. You cannot be free if you are still a slave to sin or if you are not on your way to overcoming sin.
Jason - I think you missed my point about breathing. Here's an exercise you can try, that might help you understand my point:

Step 1: Hold your breath.

This concludes the exercise.

There is a stark difference between "living in sin" (knowingly sinning, day after day) - examples of this are drunkenness, lust, gluttony, etc.
-and-
"living in Jesus" (seeking to live like Christ, doing your best to not sin).

I believe the Bible teaches us that humans are, by nature, sinful. Christians are born again, in Christ - but His work with us is not finished. After our physical bodies pass in this world - this life - we will be born again in God's Kingdom. This is where Sin is no more. Not planet Earth, in these raggedy old bodies.
 
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Galahad

Guest
Uh, no he is not right. I am sorry. The idea that you will always be a slave to your sin (With the thinking you are saved) is not Scriptural. The Bible teaches that we can overcome sin. For Jesus Christ was manifested to destroy the works of the devil within your life. God's people are not a conquered people to sin. For Paul says sin shall not have dominion over you. Jesus came to set the captives free. You cannot be free if you are still a slave to sin or if you are not on your way to overcoming sin.
I am not a slave to sin.

Jason, I believe you mention in your profile that you are engaged. If you are no longer engaged but are now married, Congratulations.

Okay. A man who is engaged to a woman, not married, he is single usually has a few thoughts. Okay. Not all those thoughts were intended. But they were sinful.

Sins such as that are inescapable. You fall into them. You don't plan to think such things.

You say, "Well, I prepare myself not to have them." Really. Even planning to not have them or fight them, brings them about.
 
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WoundedWarrior

Guest
Uh, no he is not right. I am sorry. The idea that you will always be a slave to your sin (With the thinking you are saved) is not Scriptural. The Bible teaches that we can overcome sin. For Jesus Christ was manifested to destroy the works of the devil within your life. God's people are not a conquered people to sin. For Paul says sin shall not have dominion over you. Jesus came to set the captives free. You cannot be free if you are still a slave to sin or if you are not on your way to overcoming sin.
[h=1]1 John 1:8-10English Standard Version (ESV)[/h]8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.


Matthew 26:41New International Version (NIV)


41 “Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”



[h=1]James 5:16New International Version (NIV)[/h]16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.




Check out this resource, Jason: Is entire sanctification / sinless perfection possible in this life?
 
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Jason - I think you missed my point about breathing. Here's an exercise you can try, that might help you understand my point:

Step 1: Hold your breath.

This concludes the exercise.

There is a stark difference between "living in sin" (knowingly sinning, day after day) - examples of this are drunkenness, lust, gluttony, etc.
-and-
"living in Jesus" (seeking to live like Christ, doing your best to not sin).
And yet you are making the excuse that you will forever sin (Thereby not changing anything). So when the next time you sin, you can just write it off as a part of your sinful nature as if it is okay for you to sin because you can't help it. So then you can just keep doing that over and over and over again (Making excuses to sin yet again in the future). This is basically giving yourself a license to sin. Your off the hook in sinning again because of some sinful nature that has power over the new man.

I believe the Bible teaches us that humans are, by nature, sinful. Christians are born again, in Christ - but His work with us is not finished. After our physical bodies pass in this world - this life - we will be born again in God's Kingdom. This is where Sin is no more. Not planet Earth, in these raggedy old bodies.
Yet, that is not what the Bible teaches.

1 Peter 4:1 says they that have suffered in the flesh have ceased from sin.

Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts.

Romans 6:14 says sin shall not have dominion over you.

In Psalm 119:11, David says he hides His Word within his heart so that he may not sin against the LORD.

Jesus says to the disciples to pray so as not to be led into temptation (Matthew 26:41). Okay, so if you are to pray so as not to be led into temptation, then how can you sin if you are led away from temptation to sin by GOD?

Peter identifies the false prophets as having eyes full adultery and who cannot cease from sin (2 Peter 2:1, 14).

Ephesians 4:17-27 says, "This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. But ye have not so learned Christ; If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: Neither give place to the devil. That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:Neither give place to the devil."

How can you put off the former conversation of the old man if you believe that you can never do so in this life as a believer? How can you put away lying? Why even bother to be ye angry and sin not if you are just going to do so anyways? One would think God was playing a cruel joke on you in telling you not to sin and yet you couldn't really stop sinning.

Remember, the Scriptures say God places a way of escape for us in times of temptation.

Jesus says be ye perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect. The Heavenly Father is perfect because He is holy and sinless. If Jesus told you to be perfect (Which would include not sinning), then Jesus would be lying or tricking you into believing that you could be perfect (When in reality you could not be perfect like the Heavenly Father).

What did Joseph do when he was confronted with sexual temptation? Did he give in? Or did Joseph flee from such temptation? Do you think you can do what Joseph did?

There are more verses, but hopefully this should suffice.
 
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1 John 1:8-10English Standard Version (ESV)

8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Yeah, I have heard many here throw down the 1 John 1:8 card many times before out of context. However, 1 John 1:8 is in context to 1 John 2:3-4. So we know 1 John 1:8 is not saying we are always going to be in some kind of sin. How so? Well, sin is transgression of the law (Commandment) (1 John 3:4); And 1 John 2:3 essentially says that we way we can have assurance of knowing Jesus is if we keep His Commandments. For 1 John 2:4 says that he that says he knows him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in Him.

Does one who gives into the idea that they will forever sin keeping God's Commandments? No, of course not.

What is 1 John 1:8 really saying? It is a warning to the brethren about those false believers who thought that sin did not exist whatsoever. Hence, why John says they cannot think that way, and that if they do sin, they must confess sin in order to be forgiven of sin (1 John 1:9).

Matthew 26:41New International Version (NIV)

41 “Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”
This is focusing on the wrong half of the verse. Yes, the spirit is willing and the flesh is weak, but Jesus offers the solution in the very same verse you quoted. PRAY so as not to be led into temptation. For if there is no temptation... then you cannot sin. That is why he told you to pray so as not to be led into tempation. It takes work on your part with God to stop sinning. So this passage refutes what you believe and it does not help you.

James 5:16New International Version (NIV)

16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.
Again, you quote a passage that refutes what you believe. What is the result of their prayer? That they may be healed. Not just physically but spiritually.

I make you a deal. I will read this article if you watch the video I provided.
 
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