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I don't understand why you think Crossnote is judging you. He asked a simple question. There is a way that seems right to man. I believe that way is to trust in ANYTHING other than the shed blood of our Lord and Savior. It's His righteousness that saves us. When you think you have to do xyz... PLUS Jesus, then you are not really trusting Jesus' perfect sacrifice.
ANY good works we do in the Spirit are EVIDENCE of a changed, saved heart. They have ZERO power to save you. JESUS, and JESUS ALONE DID THAT! Praise God!
ANY good works we do in the Spirit are EVIDENCE of a changed, saved heart. They have ZERO power to save you. JESUS, and JESUS ALONE DID THAT! Praise God!
Your definition of "righteousness" only touches on the work God does IN US but ignores Gospel righteousness, the work God does FOR US and imputes TO US...
Romans 5:18-19 (NET)
18 Consequently, just as condemnation for all people came through one transgression, so too through the one righteous act came righteousness leading to life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of one man many will be made righteous.
Romans 5:18-19 (NET)
18 Consequently, just as condemnation for all people came through one transgression, so too through the one righteous act came righteousness leading to life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of one man many will be made righteous.
K
Did Jesus show that only those who receive remission for their sins will get eternal life ? YES
Works do not have the power to save, but they are the proof of a true born again believer.
Lord Jesus says those who do not have those fruits produced in their life and do not follow His teachings are not His and will be cut off and burned. We can not separate the active side of belief from a true saving faith in the Lord unto salvation. If you do that then you are literally saying a person can do what ever they want and still receive eternal life. That is completely contradictory to what the bible actually teaches as Jesus, Paul, James, and John all show that our actions, speech, and treatment of others will reflect if you are truly saved or not.
K
Yes we do disagree on some things but the one thing that seems to get me is how some take and want to try and take the active side away from a true saving faith in the Lord. The fruits of the Holy Spirit are emphasized from Jesus, Paul, James, and John as being a part of every born again believers life, and if those fruits are not there it says they will be cut off and burned.
Others call us work based or works to earn salvationists, but the fact is there in the bible that our actions are proof if we are saved or not. They are not what saves but are proof of one who is saved, if there is no proof then that is evident that you are not saved.
Others call us work based or works to earn salvationists, but the fact is there in the bible that our actions are proof if we are saved or not. They are not what saves but are proof of one who is saved, if there is no proof then that is evident that you are not saved.
There are two different kinds of obedience (works).
There is....
#1. True Obedience - Where a believer yields to God and allows Him to do the good work in you.
#2. False Obedience - Where it is the believer merely obeying an outward commandment so as to earn salvation.
#1 Type Obedience is based on the foundation of Jesus Christ where they had repented of their sins and accepted Jesus as their Savior. They trust in His grace for salvation as a free gift and not by anything that they have done in the past. They then trust Christ to continue to work in their lives with His goodness. For there is none good but God. For God is love. For I am nothing. Christ is everything. For a believer that has Christ living within them has eternal life and salvation. Then the good fruit of the Spirit will flow within their lives. They will be moved by the God (living within them) to walk after the Spirit. Works are the fruit or result of a genuine saving faith. All glory, honor, and power goes to Jesus Christ for the "good work" God does witin our lives. If a believer stumbles or sins, they have God's grace to fall back upon (For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins - 1 John 1:9). This promise in 1 John 1:9 that we can bank on is not a license to sin, but it is a promise so as to overcome sin (And be a slave to righteousness instead of a slave to sin).
#2. Type Obedience is merely an outward obedience to a certain set of laws or rules in order to be saved. It does not emphasize the importance of Jesus Christ and what He has done for us. Nor does it suggest that Christ is the One who is doing the good work in you. It emphasizes "self" and what you do to try and save yourself, versus trusting in God to do the good work in you. It is an outward obedience to the letter. But there is no life within the person. This is Works Salvationism. Many in this camp believe you have to obey both the Old Law and the New in order to be right with God. But this is wrong. We cannot be justified by merely just keeping the Law of Moses. For the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12).
There is....
#1. True Obedience - Where a believer yields to God and allows Him to do the good work in you.
#2. False Obedience - Where it is the believer merely obeying an outward commandment so as to earn salvation.
#1 Type Obedience is based on the foundation of Jesus Christ where they had repented of their sins and accepted Jesus as their Savior. They trust in His grace for salvation as a free gift and not by anything that they have done in the past. They then trust Christ to continue to work in their lives with His goodness. For there is none good but God. For God is love. For I am nothing. Christ is everything. For a believer that has Christ living within them has eternal life and salvation. Then the good fruit of the Spirit will flow within their lives. They will be moved by the God (living within them) to walk after the Spirit. Works are the fruit or result of a genuine saving faith. All glory, honor, and power goes to Jesus Christ for the "good work" God does witin our lives. If a believer stumbles or sins, they have God's grace to fall back upon (For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins - 1 John 1:9). This promise in 1 John 1:9 that we can bank on is not a license to sin, but it is a promise so as to overcome sin (And be a slave to righteousness instead of a slave to sin).
#2. Type Obedience is merely an outward obedience to a certain set of laws or rules in order to be saved. It does not emphasize the importance of Jesus Christ and what He has done for us. Nor does it suggest that Christ is the One who is doing the good work in you. It emphasizes "self" and what you do to try and save yourself, versus trusting in God to do the good work in you. It is an outward obedience to the letter. But there is no life within the person. This is Works Salvationism. Many in this camp believe you have to obey both the Old Law and the New in order to be right with God. But this is wrong. We cannot be justified by merely just keeping the Law of Moses. For the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12).
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Besides, nobody was ever saved by mere outward Law keeping. Not even in the Old Testament. All saints thru out time were justified by faith in the LORD. They believed the LORD was their salvation. Not some outward keeping of the letter. Ezekiel 36:26-27 speaks not just to us today but to the Israelite, too. This passage says that God will give you a new heart and a new spirit and then He will place His Spirit within you so as to keep His laws and statutes. So it is not us that is doing the "good work." But it is God, when we repent of our sins and surrender our lives to Him.
Again, the keeping of God's Laws both in the Old (with the Law of Moses) and in the New (with the Law of Christ) is just evidence or proof that God lives within you. For it is the fruit of God working in a person's life.
Again, the keeping of God's Laws both in the Old (with the Law of Moses) and in the New (with the Law of Christ) is just evidence or proof that God lives within you. For it is the fruit of God working in a person's life.
Then there is the opposite side of the spectrum of Works Salvationism. This is "Antinomianism" or a "Sin and Still be Saved Doctrine." This says that no believer has "free will" (in regards to salvation) and that you (as a believer) are going to either:
(a) Automatically do those things God wants you to do, or
(b) Abide in one or two unrepentant sins (like lying, lusting, and or hating) and still be saved. But this is a license to sin, though. For both deny that one can stop sinning. They believe they will always be a slave to sin (Thereby making an excuse for future sin in their life).
(a) Automatically do those things God wants you to do, or
(b) Abide in one or two unrepentant sins (like lying, lusting, and or hating) and still be saved. But this is a license to sin, though. For both deny that one can stop sinning. They believe they will always be a slave to sin (Thereby making an excuse for future sin in their life).
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Finally you have posted something worth agreeing with. I have not dealt with the work of Christ on the cross because the basic understanding of His Gospel [the Kingdom of God] is missing. Its like going from point A to point B without starting at point A. Unless you know where your at, you can't get to where you need to go. The Gospel as Jesus preached it is "Not" understood by the modern church and as such has a huge gap in its understanding. Which unfortunately, and I take no joy in saying, you display with a flare.
The problem I see with your belief is that all forms of OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) denies that a believer will ever attain Sinless Perfectionism or it denies that one can eventually stop sinning in their walk with GOD. This is a problem because it essentially denies the new heart and new nature that a person is supposed to have. For denying Sinless Perfectionism means one is always going to be a slave to sin and that they will always have a fallen nature and that they will sin at some point in the future (Thereby making an excuse for future sin to take place in their life rather than trusting God's Word that says that, - "they that have suffered in the flesh have ceased from sin." 1 Peter 4:1, or - when the Word says, - "They that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts." (Galatians 5:24). For sin shall not have dominion over you (Romans 6:14).
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W
One of my favorite passages by Paul:
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]It's an easy passage to get tongue-tied on; I find it helps to read it out loud.
The entire 7th chapter of Romans is a good read that addresses this topic. [/FONT]
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]It's an easy passage to get tongue-tied on; I find it helps to read it out loud.
The entire 7th chapter of Romans is a good read that addresses this topic. [/FONT]
K
I am born again so please do not make blatant false statements like that about me.
The word of God clearly shows from Jesus to Paul that our free will is not taken away when we are born again.
If that were the case none of us would ever sin again once born again because the Holy Spirit that is in us would not allow it, but we do backslide and sin again at times. We are not puppets who have no choice to chose how to walk, as Apostle Paul still shows after being born again you have to still chose to walk properly or not. This transition in the faith is shown by Paul in Romans 7 to Romans 8.
Romans 7 Paul calls himself carnal minded sold under sin, but in Romans 8 he states he now walks by the Spirit and is no longer carnally minded as that way leads to eternal death.
Most Christians are wrong for believing that Romans chapter 7 is talking about Paul struggling with sin as a Christian. Actually, Paul is speaking to the church of Rome who are trying to keep the Law of Moses. He is referring to his experience as an outward Jew (Before He came to Christ) trying to obey the Law. Paul gives these Christians the solution to overcome their struggle to keep the Law with Romans 8:1 (in the next chapter).
#1. Paul is repeating a point He made in chapter 5.
For there was no such thing as chapter breaks in the Bible. They were added later. Anyways, to understand chapter 7, you have to know what was going on in chapter 5.
In Romans chapter 5 we learn, "For by one man sin entered the world and by one man many shall be justified."
Now, under the Mosaic Law there was an accounting and those under that Law had to bring their sacrifices accordingly. Prior to the Mosaic law, the Patriarchs offered sacrifices to God, but not as a result of particular sins–not because God said to them if you do such and such sin then you have to offer such and such sacrifices. The sacrifices of the Patriarchs were offered based upon faith, not law. Which explains the context of Romans 5:13.
For sin was no doubt in the world prior to the law and so was transgression, hence there had to be some kind of law. For obviously Paul does not contradict himself here. He says that sin was not accounted until the law came. The point is that there was no law from God to this point that had been codified, that is, placed into written form. Before the Law of Moses, sin was not imputed because there was no written Law to transgress. Then how was sin imputed to those living before the written Law? Well, sin was imputed to those living before the Law because the "death of sin" was passed down to them thru Adam's disobedience (Romans 5:12, 14, 17, 18, 19). Those living before the Law, were exclusively justified by faith and those who did not live by faith were condemned. In other words, the Old Testament saint living before the Law was justified by following Romans 8:1. Yes, they did not know who Christ was yet or this passage, but the Spirit of Christ was in fact within the prophets, though (1 Peter 1:10, 11).
This point of the Law in Romans 5 is made in Romans chapter 7. Compare Romans 7:8-10 with Romans 5:12-14 and Romans 5:20.
#2. This passage is an answer to the question “Did that which was good [the Law], then, become death to me?” (Romans 7:13) Paul is explaining how the Old Testament Law – good in itself – was used by sin to bring death to pre-Christians.
#3. The majority of Romans 7 deals with Paul's struggle with sin. However, at the end of that chapter he gives us the solution which is Jesus Christ. This means Paul's struggle with sin was before He came to Christ. It would not make any sense to say that Paul struggle with sin and then say the solution is Jesus if he already had Jesus.
#4. Paul’s only positive description of the “me” in this passage is elsewhere applied to Jews, not Christians. “I agree with the Law, that the Law is good” (Romans 7:16) and “I delight in the law of God in my inner man” (Romans 7:22). But this is more in line with Paul’s description of Jews: “If you call yourself a Jew and rely on the Law” (Romans 2:17). In Romans, Christians have “died to the Law” (Romans 7:4) and thus “delight in the Law” is not most naturally applied to Christians.
#5. Paul’s negative descriptions of the “me” in the passage are elsewhere applied to Jews, not Christians.
“I am fleshly, sold into bondage to sin” (Romans 7:14). Compare to “we were in the flesh” (Romans 7:5); “we were freed from sin” (Romans 6:18); “we were slaves to sin” (Romans 6:20); and “you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit” (Romans 8:9).
Anyways, I hope this helps.
And may God bless you.
Sources Used:
Paul is not Talking about Himself: Why I take the "pre-Christian" Reading of Romans 7:14-25
Theology Online | Christian Forums & More - View Single Post - ECT Christians and the Old Testament
#1. Paul is repeating a point He made in chapter 5.
For there was no such thing as chapter breaks in the Bible. They were added later. Anyways, to understand chapter 7, you have to know what was going on in chapter 5.
In Romans chapter 5 we learn, "For by one man sin entered the world and by one man many shall be justified."
Now, under the Mosaic Law there was an accounting and those under that Law had to bring their sacrifices accordingly. Prior to the Mosaic law, the Patriarchs offered sacrifices to God, but not as a result of particular sins–not because God said to them if you do such and such sin then you have to offer such and such sacrifices. The sacrifices of the Patriarchs were offered based upon faith, not law. Which explains the context of Romans 5:13.
For sin was no doubt in the world prior to the law and so was transgression, hence there had to be some kind of law. For obviously Paul does not contradict himself here. He says that sin was not accounted until the law came. The point is that there was no law from God to this point that had been codified, that is, placed into written form. Before the Law of Moses, sin was not imputed because there was no written Law to transgress. Then how was sin imputed to those living before the written Law? Well, sin was imputed to those living before the Law because the "death of sin" was passed down to them thru Adam's disobedience (Romans 5:12, 14, 17, 18, 19). Those living before the Law, were exclusively justified by faith and those who did not live by faith were condemned. In other words, the Old Testament saint living before the Law was justified by following Romans 8:1. Yes, they did not know who Christ was yet or this passage, but the Spirit of Christ was in fact within the prophets, though (1 Peter 1:10, 11).
This point of the Law in Romans 5 is made in Romans chapter 7. Compare Romans 7:8-10 with Romans 5:12-14 and Romans 5:20.
#2. This passage is an answer to the question “Did that which was good [the Law], then, become death to me?” (Romans 7:13) Paul is explaining how the Old Testament Law – good in itself – was used by sin to bring death to pre-Christians.
#3. The majority of Romans 7 deals with Paul's struggle with sin. However, at the end of that chapter he gives us the solution which is Jesus Christ. This means Paul's struggle with sin was before He came to Christ. It would not make any sense to say that Paul struggle with sin and then say the solution is Jesus if he already had Jesus.
#4. Paul’s only positive description of the “me” in this passage is elsewhere applied to Jews, not Christians. “I agree with the Law, that the Law is good” (Romans 7:16) and “I delight in the law of God in my inner man” (Romans 7:22). But this is more in line with Paul’s description of Jews: “If you call yourself a Jew and rely on the Law” (Romans 2:17). In Romans, Christians have “died to the Law” (Romans 7:4) and thus “delight in the Law” is not most naturally applied to Christians.
#5. Paul’s negative descriptions of the “me” in the passage are elsewhere applied to Jews, not Christians.
“I am fleshly, sold into bondage to sin” (Romans 7:14). Compare to “we were in the flesh” (Romans 7:5); “we were freed from sin” (Romans 6:18); “we were slaves to sin” (Romans 6:20); and “you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit” (Romans 8:9).
“But I see another law… making me a prisoner of the law of sin” (Romans 7:23). Compare to “but now, freed from sin and enslaved to God” (Romans 6:22); and “the law of the Spirit of life has set you free from the law of sin and death” (Romans 8:2).
If Paul says that Christian are no longer in the flesh and are no longer slaves or prisoners of sin, then it seems to make the most sense to say that he is talking about his pre-Christian experience when he was Jew here in Romans 7:14-25.
Anyways, I hope this helps.
And may God bless you.
Sources Used:
Paul is not Talking about Himself: Why I take the "pre-Christian" Reading of Romans 7:14-25
Theology Online | Christian Forums & More - View Single Post - ECT Christians and the Old Testament
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The words, "Saved or Salvation" is about "Being Delivered from Evil" according to Jesus. Being delivered supernaturally from evil is mixed in with our physical actions. If you sin, don't expect to not have a life free of evil. Our actions draw things to us. If we are walking a pleasing life to God, blessing flow our way. This is why Jesus told the young ruler to follow the 10C. If you want a full understanding of that, you need to read Deut 28:1-14 which Jesus was referring too. How we act has to do with a physical salvation [Deliverance]. The work of the cross deals with spiritual deliverance. We are unshackled from corruption of our soul. This is what Paul was dealing with in part. Paul was dealing with gentiles who had no clue concerning living a righteous life by the 10C. So the message to the gentiles was "Christ in you". Christ would show them how to live a physically righteous life so that they to could experience the Kingdom of God as preached by Jesus. The promise of Deut 28:1-14 is part of our physical salvation. The cross is our spiritual salvation and that removes the block which keeps us from experiencing the fullness of Gods fellowship.