To comfort those who speak in tongues
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W
I am not correcting you -- in fact, I'm trying to assist you two.
Also, I am genuinely seeking answers. Hence this: http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...fort-those-who-speak-tongues.html#post2236736
Also, I am genuinely seeking answers. Hence this: http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...fort-those-who-speak-tongues.html#post2236736
Okay . . . thank you for clarifying your statement for me.
Why do you see tongues "as pointless in this day and age when done in the church"? I thought it was for "edification of the church when done with interpretation"? I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except (unless) he interpret that the church may receive edifying.
"Tongues practicers also do not understand Paul's statement about "pray language" and use their misunderstanding to justify it." . . . . What is your understanding?
"give someone an understanding of a tongue they've never heard before to reach them with the Gospel. That's not what happens today, though." . . . What exactly do you mean here?
I hope you don't mind my questions . . . just want to get clarification of your understanding. Thanks.
Why do you see tongues "as pointless in this day and age when done in the church"? I thought it was for "edification of the church when done with interpretation"? I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except (unless) he interpret that the church may receive edifying.
"Tongues practicers also do not understand Paul's statement about "pray language" and use their misunderstanding to justify it." . . . . What is your understanding?
"give someone an understanding of a tongue they've never heard before to reach them with the Gospel. That's not what happens today, though." . . . What exactly do you mean here?
I hope you don't mind my questions . . . just want to get clarification of your understanding. Thanks.
V
I'm sorry you and shotgunner find my post offensive to you. But if we do a biblical study of tongues and other signs and wonders, we can't reach any other conclusion that the one I've reached.
There was nothing uncivil about my post, other than it steps on the toes of those who disagree.
That's completely untrue. I'm more a Berean than anything, studying what I'm told for myself to make certain it lines up with Scripture.
Yes, I'm a Southern Baptist, and agree with most of what the SBC doctrines teach. But not without having come to the conclusion that those doctrines are true and correct for myself through study, prayer, and the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
And again, there is nothing unloving in the portion of my post you italicized. You don't agree with it, but it was not said in any untoward or rude fashion.
It is obvious that the practices in today's signs-and-wonders churches mirror the way tongues were practiced in Corinth. It is clear that Paul, the greatest of the apostles who was used of God to heal many, left Trophimus ill in Miletus. The proper interpretation of 1 Corinthians 13 must lead one to the conclusion that Paul was speaking of the end of these gifts, particularly prophecy and supernatural knowledge due to the fact the written word of God to the church was already being preserved.
Perhaps, rather than simply expressing your offense at the fact I don't agree with you, you can explain those things in a way that would change my mind about how they are to be interpreted.
There was nothing uncivil about my post, other than it steps on the toes of those who disagree.
That's completely untrue. I'm more a Berean than anything, studying what I'm told for myself to make certain it lines up with Scripture.
Yes, I'm a Southern Baptist, and agree with most of what the SBC doctrines teach. But not without having come to the conclusion that those doctrines are true and correct for myself through study, prayer, and the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
And again, there is nothing unloving in the portion of my post you italicized. You don't agree with it, but it was not said in any untoward or rude fashion.
It is obvious that the practices in today's signs-and-wonders churches mirror the way tongues were practiced in Corinth. It is clear that Paul, the greatest of the apostles who was used of God to heal many, left Trophimus ill in Miletus. The proper interpretation of 1 Corinthians 13 must lead one to the conclusion that Paul was speaking of the end of these gifts, particularly prophecy and supernatural knowledge due to the fact the written word of God to the church was already being preserved.
Perhaps, rather than simply expressing your offense at the fact I don't agree with you, you can explain those things in a way that would change my mind about how they are to be interpreted.
Hi WW, I am not sure if your comment here is sarcastic, or if you actually believe what you are writing. Please let me know!
I hope you can see now why I used the term "tongue haters" on another thread because that is what they are. They are saying that all of us who can testify to the power of God poured out among us including the gift of tongues are SINNERS and also if as they say tongues have already ceased, by that implication we are LIARS.
I would think that is dangerous ground to be on and I am a bit surprised you are gravitating in the same direction.
I hope you can see now why I used the term "tongue haters" on another thread because that is what they are. They are saying that all of us who can testify to the power of God poured out among us including the gift of tongues are SINNERS and also if as they say tongues have already ceased, by that implication we are LIARS.
I would think that is dangerous ground to be on and I am a bit surprised you are gravitating in the same direction.
They did say it though, here in post 18 "So you see, your declaration is in error, as these gifts were no long necessary by the end of the first century, and they serve no purpose today except the self-glorifcation of those who practice them, which is sin.". Now they are backpeddling.
James 1 6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. 8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
Amazing how far some will go to disguise their own unbelief.
James 1 6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. 8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
Amazing how far some will go to disguise their own unbelief.
W
Hi Convallaria,
I apologize if my recent post came-across as sarcastic -- this was not my intention! I am being genuine and honest!
I understood earlier (and still do) what you meant by the term "tongue haters" -- I understood VW's remarks to mean: By his understanding, "tongues" are dead. So, since this is his perspective, the only logical explanation for someone who publicly "practices tongues" is that they are glorifying themselves (since, VW's belief is that the gift of tongues is dead -- thus, whatever words are coming out of the person's mouth are not from the Spirit).
I can DEFINITELY understand how this can be perceived as offensive or an attack however, it was not intended to be an attack -- especially a personal attack. And, I think VW did a great job of showing us that he also understands this in his recent Post 25.
My position on this topic is neutral -- which is why I am seriously considering all points of view at this time.
I apologize if my recent post came-across as sarcastic -- this was not my intention! I am being genuine and honest!
I understood earlier (and still do) what you meant by the term "tongue haters" -- I understood VW's remarks to mean: By his understanding, "tongues" are dead. So, since this is his perspective, the only logical explanation for someone who publicly "practices tongues" is that they are glorifying themselves (since, VW's belief is that the gift of tongues is dead -- thus, whatever words are coming out of the person's mouth are not from the Spirit).
I can DEFINITELY understand how this can be perceived as offensive or an attack however, it was not intended to be an attack -- especially a personal attack. And, I think VW did a great job of showing us that he also understands this in his recent Post 25.
My position on this topic is neutral -- which is why I am seriously considering all points of view at this time.
V
As I said in another post responding to Ember, the Holy Spirit can do anything He wants to do, including giving understanding between people who do not speak the same language, or supernaturally implanting the knowledge of truth into the heart of an unbeliever who has never heard the Gospel before. But the practice of tongues in the churches that do so today mirrors almost exactly the events Paul condemned in 1 Corinthians 12-14, and yet they deny that to be the case.
They claim if they have interpreters and its OK to speak tongues. But they either do not understand, or they ignore the meaning, of Paul's explanatory statement midway chapter 12 of his second letter to Corinth.
Put that together with Peter's defining statement of the qualifications of an apostle ...
... and it is evident that the signs-and-wonders gifts were temporary and, from what we see of Paul's admonitions to the Corinthians, the fact he left Trophimus ill without healing him, and that prophecy and knowledge were no longer verbal in nature as they were being recorded for posterity, we begin to see that the Holy Spirit was changing the way He related to believers.
He no longer needed apostles, as the word of the Gospel had spread to the ends of the Earth by the end of the first century. Therefore, he also didn't need the confirming gifts that He gave the apostles to prove to the Diaspora -- the Jewish people scatter throughout the world since the fall of Judah and Israel 800 years earlier -- that their message was, indeed, from God.
Absolutely! In fact, I think we can safely say that the gifts I normally talk about -- tongues, prophecy and knowledge, and healing -- were just three of the temporary gifts given in the beginning of the faith. Apostleship would be another, and the "discerning of spirits" which gave the ability to distinguish false teachers from true ones. We now have the written word to do so.
The nine permanent gifts that remain active today, and will until Christ returns, are teaching, helps, faith, exhortation, administration, giving, mercy, preaching/teaching, and evangelism. These are still very necessary, perhaps today more than ever, since the church as a whole seems to have forgotten how to do many of them.
They claim if they have interpreters and its OK to speak tongues. But they either do not understand, or they ignore the meaning, of Paul's explanatory statement midway chapter 12 of his second letter to Corinth.
2 Corinthians 12. NASB
12 The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and miracles.
12 The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and miracles.
Put that together with Peter's defining statement of the qualifications of an apostle ...
Acts 1
21 "Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us-
22 beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us-one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection."
21 "Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us-
22 beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us-one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection."
... and it is evident that the signs-and-wonders gifts were temporary and, from what we see of Paul's admonitions to the Corinthians, the fact he left Trophimus ill without healing him, and that prophecy and knowledge were no longer verbal in nature as they were being recorded for posterity, we begin to see that the Holy Spirit was changing the way He related to believers.
He no longer needed apostles, as the word of the Gospel had spread to the ends of the Earth by the end of the first century. Therefore, he also didn't need the confirming gifts that He gave the apostles to prove to the Diaspora -- the Jewish people scatter throughout the world since the fall of Judah and Israel 800 years earlier -- that their message was, indeed, from God.
Absolutely! In fact, I think we can safely say that the gifts I normally talk about -- tongues, prophecy and knowledge, and healing -- were just three of the temporary gifts given in the beginning of the faith. Apostleship would be another, and the "discerning of spirits" which gave the ability to distinguish false teachers from true ones. We now have the written word to do so.
The nine permanent gifts that remain active today, and will until Christ returns, are teaching, helps, faith, exhortation, administration, giving, mercy, preaching/teaching, and evangelism. These are still very necessary, perhaps today more than ever, since the church as a whole seems to have forgotten how to do many of them.
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V
If there are still questions I haven't adequately answered for you in this post responding to WW, please let me know and I'll try to clarify. God bless.
At my first reading I took it to mean that "those who practice them, (tongues) which is sin" . . meaning those that practice speaking in tongues are sinning. After his explanation I can see where he meant the self-glorification was the sin not the tongues . . . and I have no reason to believe that VW would lie to me.
I can only explain what I believe and the same goes for others . . . There are some that disagree and believe that the completed scripture is "that which is perfect is come" - and they see that scripture "face to face" - I have seen and dealt with it before and probably will again and again . . . I just see I differently - I see "that which is perfect is come" as being Jesus Christ because that is who I will see "face to face" - not a page on a book. They see knowledge vanishing away . . . in this context - that would be the manifestation of "word of knowledge" - so how can they one minute say that tongues have ceased - (word of) knowledge is vanishing but yet they are receiving this from the Holy Spirit - How? They aren't receiving any (word of) knowledge for it has vanished!!! I don't understand their reasoning . . . but they are still my brothers and sisters in Christ . . . sooooo - love outweighs it all!
I can only explain what I believe and the same goes for others . . . There are some that disagree and believe that the completed scripture is "that which is perfect is come" - and they see that scripture "face to face" - I have seen and dealt with it before and probably will again and again . . . I just see I differently - I see "that which is perfect is come" as being Jesus Christ because that is who I will see "face to face" - not a page on a book. They see knowledge vanishing away . . . in this context - that would be the manifestation of "word of knowledge" - so how can they one minute say that tongues have ceased - (word of) knowledge is vanishing but yet they are receiving this from the Holy Spirit - How? They aren't receiving any (word of) knowledge for it has vanished!!! I don't understand their reasoning . . . but they are still my brothers and sisters in Christ . . . sooooo - love outweighs it all!
V
Out-of-context usage.
Romans 11, NASB
28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;
29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Paul is talking about the gift of salvation, not the gifts of the Spirit.28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;
29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
K
WoundedWarrior those who claim that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are not in existence today or used today usually take and use 1 Corinthians 13 for their defense.
This is called the love chapter because the whole context of this chapter is about love, yet they try to interject the completed bible into verse 10 to say the bible is that which is perfect. But that is completely not correct as that which is perfect has to align with the rest of the chapter which is love, meaning when perfect love comes into the world the rest will cease.
Because when all is done and fulfilled at the end of the age and the New Earth and New Jerusalem comes down then the world will be nothing but perfect love, as there would be no more sadness, death, or sinful actions. At this point there will be no more need for tongues, prophecy, healing, and so forth.
Even Acts 2:17, Joel 2:28, and Isaiah 44:3 say that dreams, visions, and prophesying will continue throughout the end days.
We are still in those end days as they have not finished yet, therefore prophesying has not ended either. Even in Revelation 11:3 says the two witnesses will prophesy for 1,260 days.
As for 1 Corinthians 13:8 the part stating these will cease, done away, or fail is in reference to if they are done without love, as a true prophesy or speaking in tongues that come from God will be done to edify. If it is not done in a edifying manner they will fail and come and go without being fulfilled or being useful !!!
K
Only if it is done in the wrong manner as Paul gives us the correct way they are to be used.
In post #38 I gave scriptures from the bible that shows those gifts still are in affect in the days we live in now.
Just because some churches misuse how this gift is to be done, and what they are doing with making those babbling noises in church is not the tongues spoken of in the bible, does not mean they do not exist still.
I agree that there is the misrepresented of these gifts done today, but the true gifts do still exist and are done today as the bible clearly says. To keep saying they don't you would have to do away with the scriptures I mentioned in post #38.
In post #38 I gave scriptures from the bible that shows those gifts still are in affect in the days we live in now.
Just because some churches misuse how this gift is to be done, and what they are doing with making those babbling noises in church is not the tongues spoken of in the bible, does not mean they do not exist still.
I agree that there is the misrepresented of these gifts done today, but the true gifts do still exist and are done today as the bible clearly says. To keep saying they don't you would have to do away with the scriptures I mentioned in post #38.