WOF is Heresy & Should be Avoided at all Costs!
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May be that some things found in a "trash can" reserved for kindling, should be used for such. New and revised does not mean improved. I'm not a teacher or a preacher, I'm just looking for the truth, and along the way mark those who consistently distort the truth as being dangerous. ..especially when they've been trained in it.
Sorry Stephen63 for going off topic, tho it does make sense to me these things are related.
Sorry Stephen63 for going off topic, tho it does make sense to me these things are related.
To keep the slander and malice down to a minimum I am posting by permission what JGIG posted concerning this subject.
Quote:
Everyone needs to weigh what they see and hear - folks need to pray for discernment and listen to the Spirit of God within them and compare what they're hearing/seeing to what the Bible plainly AND contextually says.
Example in Discernment - Joseph Prince:
Let me take a teacher who has gotten both support and raked over the coals here at CC, Joseph Prince. I've watched/listened to a bunch of his stuff, and in my opinion, he's one of the best teachers of the Gospel, the New Covenant, the Work of Christ, and the High Priesthood of Christ, and he lovingly and with good humor, builds up the believer in who they are in Christ. He also has a great ability to show how nearly everything in the Old Testament points to and foreshadows the realities that are in Christ.
That said, I think his teaching on the Lord's Supper is a little weird, and he does lean toward the 'claim your healing' mentality, which is, I believe, a reflection of his WOF 'roots' (self admitted). Those are the only things I have disagreements with him on that I've found (and I don't listen to him regularly, but have listened to a bunch of his stuff).
Regarding his teachings on wealth/prosperity, one needs to understand a few things:
Heresy Hunters and Joseph Prince:
Now some heresy hunters will often cite JP's self-admitted WOF 'roots' and then go about tearing apart Kenneth Hagin and every other WOF teacher they can think of in their articles that are 'exposing' Joseph Prince. Other heresy hunters will rip JP apart and call him a false teacher because he teaches eternal security. Then the Reformed heresy hunters will tell us how JP must be a heretic because he believes that the gifts of the Spirit are for today. The Holiness heresy hunters will rail against JP's teachings about Grace.
FEW, IF ANY of them will have sat down and actually watched a number of JP's teachings and evaluated what he actually teaches, but instead join in the feeding frenzy of snippets taken out of context by other heresy hunters aiming to take him down. Meanwhile, his teaching is setting thousands and thousands of viewers free and his ministry is flourishing.
Where these types cross the line is when they turn a disagreement that they have with someone doctrinally on a secondary issue and turn it into "So and so is a heretic/satanist/controlled by a demon" type stuff.
Gee whiz, people! State your disagreement, give your opinion, back it up with what you believe Scripture has to say on the matter, and let the reader/listener/viewer examine the issues and make up their own mind.
It's always instructive to look into the 'ministries' of these heresy hunting types - their overall demeanor, who they DO approve of and what those folks teach, and the fruit of their ministries. Many times they're just miserable, wounded, Christians who don't fellowship in real churches and interact with real people where they have to build real relationships but limit their interaction with others to the internet.
So for those on this thread who don't know me as well as others, I'm not a naïve type of believer who thinks all is posies and daffodils out there - I know that's not true. There is an Enemy out there who actively seeks to do harm to the Body of Christ.
I also know that He Who is in me is GREATER than he who is in the world! The Enemy has NO power I don't give him. The Enemy was defeated at the Cross and his greatest remaining weapon is deception. The best defense? KNOW WHAT'S TRUE AND STAND ON IT. The Gospel is the core of all Truth, and when we have a firm grasp on
. . and we equip ourselves and other believers with those foundational Truths, then when someone with something that is counterfeit approaches them, they'll recognize it and know to reject it because of how well they know what's TRUE in CHRIST.
The solution to false/bad teaching out there is building up and equipping the Body of Christ about who She is in Christ. Address falsehoods, show where they are in error, and then move on to building up and equipping with contextual, Biblical Truth.
And this is long and I'll end it here. Kudos to you if you made it this far
.
Grace and peace,
-JGIG
Quote:
Everyone needs to weigh what they see and hear - folks need to pray for discernment and listen to the Spirit of God within them and compare what they're hearing/seeing to what the Bible plainly AND contextually says.
Example in Discernment - Joseph Prince:
Let me take a teacher who has gotten both support and raked over the coals here at CC, Joseph Prince. I've watched/listened to a bunch of his stuff, and in my opinion, he's one of the best teachers of the Gospel, the New Covenant, the Work of Christ, and the High Priesthood of Christ, and he lovingly and with good humor, builds up the believer in who they are in Christ. He also has a great ability to show how nearly everything in the Old Testament points to and foreshadows the realities that are in Christ.
That said, I think his teaching on the Lord's Supper is a little weird, and he does lean toward the 'claim your healing' mentality, which is, I believe, a reflection of his WOF 'roots' (self admitted). Those are the only things I have disagreements with him on that I've found (and I don't listen to him regularly, but have listened to a bunch of his stuff).
Regarding his teachings on wealth/prosperity, one needs to understand a few things:
- Joseph Prince defines prosperity as having what you need plus extra so that you can bless/minister to others
- Joseph Prince does not take a salary from his church (hasn't for years)
- Joseph Prince's income is from his books
- There are very active ministries at JP's church - they are not just a bunch of money-grubbing, selfish people looking to live in nice houses and drive nice cars. New Creation Church is a pipeline where money flows in, money flows out in ministry: New Creation Church - Outreach
- Joseph Prince's broadcasts - every single one that I've heard - ALWAYS says that they believe that your giving should go to your local church FIRST, and that if you feel led, that they welcome any support you feel led to give to them. There is NO 'sow your seed with this ministry and God will bless you' schtick AT ALL at NCC or preached by JP.
Heresy Hunters and Joseph Prince:
Now some heresy hunters will often cite JP's self-admitted WOF 'roots' and then go about tearing apart Kenneth Hagin and every other WOF teacher they can think of in their articles that are 'exposing' Joseph Prince. Other heresy hunters will rip JP apart and call him a false teacher because he teaches eternal security. Then the Reformed heresy hunters will tell us how JP must be a heretic because he believes that the gifts of the Spirit are for today. The Holiness heresy hunters will rail against JP's teachings about Grace.
FEW, IF ANY of them will have sat down and actually watched a number of JP's teachings and evaluated what he actually teaches, but instead join in the feeding frenzy of snippets taken out of context by other heresy hunters aiming to take him down. Meanwhile, his teaching is setting thousands and thousands of viewers free and his ministry is flourishing.
Where these types cross the line is when they turn a disagreement that they have with someone doctrinally on a secondary issue and turn it into "So and so is a heretic/satanist/controlled by a demon" type stuff.
Gee whiz, people! State your disagreement, give your opinion, back it up with what you believe Scripture has to say on the matter, and let the reader/listener/viewer examine the issues and make up their own mind.
It's always instructive to look into the 'ministries' of these heresy hunting types - their overall demeanor, who they DO approve of and what those folks teach, and the fruit of their ministries. Many times they're just miserable, wounded, Christians who don't fellowship in real churches and interact with real people where they have to build real relationships but limit their interaction with others to the internet.
So for those on this thread who don't know me as well as others, I'm not a naïve type of believer who thinks all is posies and daffodils out there - I know that's not true. There is an Enemy out there who actively seeks to do harm to the Body of Christ.
I also know that He Who is in me is GREATER than he who is in the world! The Enemy has NO power I don't give him. The Enemy was defeated at the Cross and his greatest remaining weapon is deception. The best defense? KNOW WHAT'S TRUE AND STAND ON IT. The Gospel is the core of all Truth, and when we have a firm grasp on
- Who Christ is
- What He came to do
- What that actually accomplished, and
- What that means for those who put their faith and trust in Christ and who they are in Him.
. . and we equip ourselves and other believers with those foundational Truths, then when someone with something that is counterfeit approaches them, they'll recognize it and know to reject it because of how well they know what's TRUE in CHRIST.
The solution to false/bad teaching out there is building up and equipping the Body of Christ about who She is in Christ. Address falsehoods, show where they are in error, and then move on to building up and equipping with contextual, Biblical Truth.
And this is long and I'll end it here. Kudos to you if you made it this far
.Grace and peace,
-JGIG
2. Speak for yourself..... & use the Bible.
3. Either you love Joseph Prince, or you don't. I think we can "discern" which.
T
I'm not willing to do battle you nor with any other but i will point out to you that the KJV, a tested and good version of the scriptures, is a thought for thought translation of the Holy Scriptures written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Koine Greek. I see you included the NASB in your list and I would suggest you learn a bit more about translations of anything from one language to another.
The note of import here is the NASB is as close to a word for word translation as is possible. There might be one closer because I am old now and do not look for better translation today because I have eighteen translations I can deal with and I am, today, bed-ridden until I pass over. But comparing your 'list' of translations, it looks to me as if you might have chosen incorrectly to make your point.
The note of import here is the NASB is as close to a word for word translation as is possible. There might be one closer because I am old now and do not look for better translation today because I have eighteen translations I can deal with and I am, today, bed-ridden until I pass over. But comparing your 'list' of translations, it looks to me as if you might have chosen incorrectly to make your point.
E
But make no mistake, there’s a huge difference between discerning a spirit of error that keeps people from a full understanding of Jesus and accusing people of full-blown heresy that keeps people from receiving salvation. Even though deception is running rampant in the body of Christ, I shun the work of heresy hunters who have made it their mission to discredit anyone and everyone with whose theology they have a point of contention.
CREDIT
CREDIT
Actually, the KJV got it right because there is condemnation to those in Christ Jesus who walk after the flesh. Condemnation does not always mean eternal. There is temporal condemnation either in this life or at the JSOC. See Romans 14:20-23, 1 Corinthians 11:30-32 as examples.
People like to use Greek manuscripts so they can be the final authority on what God has said. You do understand the Greek manuscripts you're referring to are copies of copies of copies of copies, etc.
I apologize for getting off thread topic but whenever the word of God is questioned, I have to speak up.
People like to use Greek manuscripts so they can be the final authority on what God has said. You do understand the Greek manuscripts you're referring to are copies of copies of copies of copies, etc.
I apologize for getting off thread topic but whenever the word of God is questioned, I have to speak up.
E
well, did you not know that confession is the way to be saved?
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Romans 10:9
I am concerned now, that confession has somehow become another bad word to heresy hunters...even though it is perfectly biblical and God Himself SPEAKS into existence things that are not as though they are
If we confess our salvation with our big mouths, why should we not confess that we are blessed in ALL things as was Abraham since the blessing of Abraham belongs to the Gentiles as well now...you can look that up in the NT...I'm not gonna do all the work here...
well, did you not know that confession is the way to be saved?
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Romans 10:9
I am concerned now, that confession has somehow become another bad word to heresy hunters...even though it is perfectly biblical and God Himself SPEAKS into existence things that are not as though they are
If we confess our salvation with our big mouths, why should we not confess that we are blessed in ALL things as was Abraham since the blessing of Abraham belongs to the Gentiles as well now...you can look that up in the NT...I'm not gonna do all the work here...
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Romans 10:9
I am concerned now, that confession has somehow become another bad word to heresy hunters...even though it is perfectly biblical and God Himself SPEAKS into existence things that are not as though they are
If we confess our salvation with our big mouths, why should we not confess that we are blessed in ALL things as was Abraham since the blessing of Abraham belongs to the Gentiles as well now...you can look that up in the NT...I'm not gonna do all the work here...
Confessing is fine, but it isn't a fix all. If we have sin we need to confess that too.
Yes awesome. It's His Word. If you speak it in His Name it does what He sends it for.
Lol my dad who's not saved yet once said when he heard my mother and me pray:
That's not praying what you do. That's demanding!
Yup said my mom.
LOL
He just got healed btw. He may be glad he has those WOFfy family members.
Lol my dad who's not saved yet once said when he heard my mother and me pray:
That's not praying what you do. That's demanding!
Yup said my mom.
LOL
He just got healed btw. He may be glad he has those WOFfy family members.
Thanks for that link.I took the time to read it, and now I see how dangerous this hypergrace movement is!
Besides quoting part of a verse out of context (Romans 2:4b), quoting Watchman Nee, a heretic; and using false or twisted definitions for repentance (copied off an internet site with mistakes), the author has completely lost sight of the gospel.
What did Jesus come to save us from?
"But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” Matt 1:20-21
Jesus did not come to the earth, minister to people and die on the cross just so people could "change their minds."
In fact, I am going to do a bit more study on repentance, and post it later. Because it is a total lie, according to Bauer (BAGD) that metanoia or metanoeo means "change of mind." That is never a use for repentance in the Bible. (Although it is translated that way in some early Christian llterature it is never used that way in the Bible.)
And certainly, there is a point concerning repentance meaning "turning about" but, in fact, it is more often "turning away."
The entire narrative of the Bible, from the Fall in Genesis 3, through to the coming of Jesus, is deliverance from sin! And yes, when we turn away from sin, we also turn to Christ. But that link totally misses this, and in fact repeatedly condemns "preachers" who somehow mix grace and law, But if we do not understand law, then what motive do we have to repent? I do believe God gives us the grace through faith to repent. But if we don't repent, and side step repentance, have we really received the grace of God, and are we truly saved?
This website misses the point of grace. It misses the fact that God had grace in the Old Testament, because he is the same God, yesterday, today and forever! And God did establish the law for a reason - to help his people live better - to give them boundaries and rules which the capricious gods of the surrounding cultures never had. (Instead these gods never told people how to live, or what they did wrong - but just keep the sacrifices coming!)
Further, the link in that article to Bible Hub shows Bible hub is in fact slightly wrong, which makes a HUGE difference in understanding the meaning of the word. In fact, in BAGD, the Lexicon that scholars use, the passages where "metanoia"is found in the Bible do not start after "change of mind." In fact, there is not one Bible passage found after that definition. Instead, the references start after the definition:
"repentance, turning about, conversion; as in turning away."
So is Bible Hub at the root of some of this bad theology for slipping up where it put the definitions with respect to the Bible versus early church literature? And, does this mean that some of these early church writers were influenced by gnostics, who were only concerned with the mind, and not the body? (Just asking rhetorically right now!)
Anyway, I will try and do a separate post on this. I want people to understand what an untruth it is that repentance only means "turn to God," when in fact, the historical and Biblical meaning in the Greek is "to turn away from sin."
i was just looking at commentaries for this verse, & it is apparent that the phrase "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" is not in about half of the Greek manuscripts we have for this book. so the consensus of scholars is that Paul's original document probably did not have these words here.
this phrase is borrowed from Romans 8:4 -- and the exclusion of it in verse 1 does not by any means change what Paul is saying. if you read the whole book of Romans, and especially all the surrounding context of this verse, there is no way to come away with the thought that we can just walk after the flesh all the time and think that we are "abiding in Christ" -- that same thought that the KJV includes here but almost no others do ((not because of conspiracy, but because of scholarship)) is present in Romans 8:4 in every translation. it is not a "deleted idea" like a KJV-only conspiracy-theorist would have us believe it is.
commentaries i was looking at are here:
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/romans/8-1.htm
you can see the Greek here and that about half of the manuscripts don't have it here:
http://biblehub.com/text/romans/8-1.htm
and you can see a bigger list of which translations have and don't have it ((by no means a complete list)) here:
http://biblehub.com/romans/8-1.htm
of course, i'm just poking around and am not a "scholar" by any means. someone who has studied and been trained in this sort of thing may chime in to let us know better why this isn't in most translations, and why so many manuscripts don't include it.
I was just reading in a completely unrelated way to cc today that the Muratorian canon is dated to 190 AD. So yes, maybe it was copied once or twice. But certainly not the hundreds of generations down the line like the 14th and 15th century manuscripts were, which KJV used for its translations.
You do realize, don't you, that the KJV is a translation? It had a committee of Greek and Hebrew scholars who TRANSLATED the Bible, to the best of their ability, and with the manuscripts that were available 400 years ago.
So you do understand that the KJV is a translation of Greek manuscripts that had been translated from copies of copies, etc?
So questioning the truth of a translation is not really questioning the Word of God, especially when that translation did not use the best manuscripts (because they were not available and had not yet been discovered) and adds things that are not found, for instance in the Muriatorian canon, which maybe was only copied once or twice.
Or perhaps you don't understand that the New Testament was written in Koine Greek, not 15th century Elizabethan English?
You do realize, don't you, that the KJV is a translation? It had a committee of Greek and Hebrew scholars who TRANSLATED the Bible, to the best of their ability, and with the manuscripts that were available 400 years ago.
So you do understand that the KJV is a translation of Greek manuscripts that had been translated from copies of copies, etc?
So questioning the truth of a translation is not really questioning the Word of God, especially when that translation did not use the best manuscripts (because they were not available and had not yet been discovered) and adds things that are not found, for instance in the Muriatorian canon, which maybe was only copied once or twice.
Or perhaps you don't understand that the New Testament was written in Koine Greek, not 15th century Elizabethan English?
in the KJV it is exactly the same thing said in verse 4:
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us,
who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
(Romans 8:4, KJV)
who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
(Romans 8:4, KJV)
this is not deleted in other translations:
in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us,
who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
(Romans 8:4, ESV)
who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
(Romans 8:4, ESV)
i think the idea is that it's possible a copyist just missed a line and added what should have been down there in 8:4 to 8:1. then this mistake got passed on to other manuscripts.
that's why some manuscripts don't have it, and some do. not a "nefarious scheme to trap the church in sin and spread heresy" -- goodness, if you just read the whole paragraph in any translation, and don't simply lift a few words out of the context, there is no possible way for you to miss that.
there really is something to be said for reading the Bible in a chapter-&-verse-free format. this numbering scheme was added 1500 years or more after the new testament was written; it's good and useful for us to be able to point to where things are written, but we forget that it was never written that way, and the fact that we can point to one verse can tempt us to just lift individual verses out of their context.
a person gets into trouble when they just take "there is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" and pretend that the rest of Romans doesn't exist ((except maybe a few other choice sound-bites here and there)).
i don't want to say we "stay out" of this kind of trouble if we read every book as a whole, and the Bible itself as a whole, but it sure is harder to get into that kind of trouble when we do this.
reading without chapters or verses is helpful to force you to recognize that this is the way it was written and meant to be read.
that's why whenever i quote large bodies of scripture, i almost always take the time to go through and delete all the numbering.
*cheers*
[/rant]
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