WOF is Heresy & Should be Avoided at all Costs!

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Ariel82

Guest
#61
So...totally derailed the thread...would apologize but not really sorry....

Serious...its a YouTube video, so it's gotta be true right?

YouTube never lies.

(sarcasm)
Thought this horse was beat dead, but let's rattle more bones and make sure folks know how well we can all fight and devour one another,,,yeppee kay aee...
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#62
How is it, then, that the Bible speaks of God "repenting", 28 times, I believe it is? Did God turn from His sin?
No, that word nacham means to express sorrow. It's also used to describe man expressing sorrow for his son.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#63
But it explains why we have a hard time communicating...,lots of versions of the Bible that really are just man's take,on what God thinks and not really a translation of the original text and folks have to pray and ask God what is true.
but thank God we have the Spirit that teaches us all these things!

we have this trouble communicating -- my wife talks about how it's related to the tower of Babel, how speech was confused, also our perception is confused -- all this so we will learn to depend on God and not on ourselves & our own understanding :)

when it comes down to it, about the gospel itself, who Christ is and what He came to do -- we really don't disagree about this; we are all of one Spirit and one mind in Him.
i said in some other thread recently; it only looks like we are always arguing, because this is a forum for people to debate and discuss, so naturally most of what you read is disagreement - and that almost all of this is about things secondary to the actual gospel. when someone comes into the forum and says something like Christ is not God or you must be perfectly sinless and keep the law in order to get to heaven, everyone is united in Christ and rejects those ideas.

it is beautiful; it is the Spirit of God in us, in all of us - making us one body and one people in Him
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#64
The problem with your definition of repentance is that there is zero biblical evidence to support it, and the gnostic heretics practiced it.
okie dokie....if you think so....

But there are word for word accounts of the true gospel being preached as I have shown in this post and about repentance. I can certainly understand why you don't like it though.....

The scriptures are in this post below....:)

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...y-should-avoided-all-costs-2.html#post2657058
 
W

WarriorForChrist

Guest
#65
I'm not sure what you are trying to say here, but I have seen, and been instrumental in, far too many incidences of healing and miraculous happenings to ever believe that Jesus shut the door on these things at the cross.
Sorry was gone for a bit this afternoon to respond. Basically Jesus did everything He is going to do on the cross. He saved us already so we don't need to crucify Him again to be saved and we don't need to crucify Him again to receive healing. Salvation and healing have already been paid for it is up to us to receive it. Sorry if I didn't make my statement a bit more detailed in what I was trying to get across :)
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#66
Stop claiming to know what everyone else believes.

Stop with the label and shell games of terms and just clearly state what you believe....


Instead of proving how right You are, spent time,proving how right God is by extending your,hand in peace and seeking common ground.

Before engaging in a discussion...establish what you do agree upon. Establish what is right and true and blessed in your eyes...what wisdom from above God has taught you that is peaceful, true and brings light...

After establishing an atmosphere of respect, then discuss the difference in love, patience and gentleness and hummbleness of spirit.

But my heart is sadden and troubled and I doubt anyone will listen.

Why would,anyone listen?

The blood flows and they laugh. God we need you. Jesus intercede for us please. Be our Comforter, be our mediator be our peacemaker.
 
E

ember

Guest
#67
How is it, then, that the Bible speaks of God "repenting", 28 times, I believe it is? Did God turn from His sin?

folks just don't seem to want to believe that
 
W

WarriorForChrist

Guest
#68
Stop claiming to know what everyone else believes.

Stop with the label and shell games of terms and just clearly state what you believe....


Instead of proving how right You are, spent time,proving how right God is by extending your,hand in peace and seeking common ground.

Before engaging in a discussion...establish what you do agree upon. Establish what is right and true and blessed in your eyes...what wisdom from above God has taught you that is peaceful, true and brings light...

After establishing an atmosphere of respect, then discuss the difference in love, patience and gentleness and hummbleness of spirit.

But my heart is sadden and troubled and I doubt anyone will listen.

Why would,anyone listen?

The blood flows and they laugh. God we need you. Jesus intercede for us please. Be our Comforter, be our mediator be our peacemaker.
Who are you talking to?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,695
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#69
No, that word nacham means to express sorrow. It's also used to describe man expressing sorrow for his son.
what about this --

Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves with the same way of thinking, for whoever has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, so as to live for the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for human passions but for the will of God.

(1 Peter 4:1-2)


what does Peter mean here that we have '
ceased from sin' if we 'suffer in the flesh' ?
does he mean that if we are troubled by sin, and turn away from it in our hearts, we have 'quit it' -- whether we are able to control our flesh or not ((and obviously we need to daily seek to do just that)), that hating it within ourselves is evidence that we are truly repentant? as Paul said in Romans, "
sin shall no longer have any mastery over you" ((Romans 6:14)) ?

because if we are untroubled, and do not "suffer" within ourselves over our own sin, then it has mastery over us.

as counterpoint, mormon teaching for example says that as long as you still commit a sin at all, you have not truly repented. this separates what goes on in your heart from what goes on with your hands and mouth -- maybe you cuss ((forget whether this is a sin or not, just looking for an example)) sometimes, but you always regret it when you do, and try to keep yourself from doing it - though it slips out of your mouth sometimes because '
the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.'
mormon doctrine is that if you ever cuss at all, regardless of whether you regret it, you have not repented.
but the true doctrine of The Way is that repentance is turning away in your heart -- right?

is that what Peter's saying? or am i off-base? i feel certain that the mormon doctrine is patently false, and that understanding that is from the Holy Spirit in me.

thanks.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#70
In Revelation Jesus brought out specific sins to repent of and not just a lack of knowledge...

Revelation 2:5,16,22 KJVS
[5] Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
[16] Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
[22] Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

Revelation 3:3,19 KJVS
[3] Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. [19] As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Those that follow Prince need to take a seriously close look at the message to the Churches in Revelation 2 and 3.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#72
In Revelation Jesus brought out specific sins to repent of and not just a lack of knowledge...

Revelation 2:5,16,22 KJVS
[5] Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
[16] Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
[22] Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

Revelation 3:3,19 KJVS
[3] Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. [19] As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Those that follow Prince need to take a seriously close look at the message to the Churches in Revelation 2 and 3.
People have looked at it. They are wonderful scriptures of the grace and love of our Lord for us!

In revelation 2 one of the people that Jesus called to repent ( change your mind ) is Jezebel . Here are below some great grace-based teaching on this subject and many others too.

I like to use this website below as it tackles the obscure scriptures and often false assumptions and accusations about the grace of Christ
.

It's important to feed ourselves in the areas that the Lord is bringing to us to look into so that we can grow in the grace and knowledge of Him.

Rest assured it is NOT our Advocate that is accusing us. He does love us and correct us but never accuses us. That is the very name of satan is accuser.
I can assure you that Jesus is not satan.

There are a number of articles about the people in Revelation 2 and 3..:

Strike Her Children Dead (Revelation 2:23) ( Jezebel one )

https://escapetoreality.org/2015/06/...velation-2v23/


This one is all about the Laodicean church.

https://escapetoreality.org/category/laodicean-church/

This one is about " Incomplete Deeds: The Zombie Church of Sardis (Rev 3:1-6)"

https://escapetoreality.org/2010/04/...rdis-rev-31-6/

Here is one about." Forsaking Your First Love: What Was the Ephesians’ Problem? (Rev 2:1-7)"

https://escapetoreality.org/2010/04/...blem-rev-21-7/

Here is one about " Holding Fast in Thyatira: The Seductress versus the Savior (Rev 2:18-29)

https://escapetoreality.org/2010/04/...or-rev-218-29/
 
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Sep 4, 2012
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#73
what about this --

Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves with the same way of thinking, for whoever has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, so as to live for the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for human passions but for the will of God.

(1 Peter 4:1-2)


what does Peter mean here that we have '
ceased from sin' if we 'suffer in the flesh' ?
does he mean that if we are troubled by sin, and turn away from it in our hearts, we have 'quit it' -- whether we are able to control our flesh or not ((and obviously we need to daily seek to do just that)), that hating it within ourselves is evidence that we are truly repentant? as Paul said in Romans, "
sin shall no longer have any mastery over you" ((Romans 6:14)) ?

because if we are untroubled, and do not "suffer" within ourselves over our own sin, then it has mastery over us.

as counterpoint, mormon teaching for example says that as long as you still commit a sin at all, you have not truly repented. this separates what goes on in your heart from what goes on with your hands and mouth -- maybe you cuss ((forget whether this is a sin or not, just looking for an example)) sometimes, but you always regret it when you do, and try to keep yourself from doing it - though it slips out of your mouth sometimes because '
the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.'
mormon doctrine is that if you ever cuss at all, regardless of whether you regret it, you have not repented.
but the true doctrine of The Way is that repentance is turning away in your heart -- right?

is that what Peter's saying? or am i off-base? i feel certain that the mormon doctrine is patently false, and that understanding that is from the Holy Spirit in me.

thanks.
I was just wondering about this passage, and can't really admit that I understand it. However, I think what you described is what it means. It hasn't really sunk in yet, but I suspect it might have something to do with the fact that turning from sin causes suffering (like you suggested).
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#74
You know....we are allowed to agree to disagree on things as well! To me as long as Jesus is being preached as our Savior by grace through faith in His blood alone - we are on the same page and it's a good one. We will be spending eternity with Him - together. None of us knows as we ought to know Paul said.....

Let's have some respect for each other as we grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord together. We need each other in the body of Christ to operate in the way the Lord wants us to.

I hope everyone has a great night and sleep well. It's getting later here on the east coast of Canada.

Bless you all!

Hey...the good news is - we win! Jesus won it all for us!
 
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Nov 12, 2015
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#75
Actually, the KJV got it right because there is condemnation to those in Christ Jesus who walk after the flesh. Condemnation does not always mean eternal. There is temporal condemnation either in this life or at the JSOC. See Romans 14:20-23, 1 Corinthians 11:30-32 as examples.

People like to use Greek manuscripts so they can be the final authority on what God has said. You do understand the Greek manuscripts you're referring to are copies of copies of copies of copies, etc.

I apologize for getting off thread topic but whenever the word of God is questioned, I have to speak up.
I believe this, that when we walk afterthef lesh, we have stopped abiding in HIM. I've done it. But He never left me when I did...I can't understand why not. I would have left me.

Ithi nk it is serious when we spiral down into walking in the flesh, in bitterness and riot and turmoil in our hearts, wantingto hate and get even.But I don't know how He could have possiblygot me to see and agree thati was still riddled with pridean d a desire to be treatedwe ll UNLESS he had let me go that way and wander off. I had to have the experience, notj ust the head knowledgeor I would have NEVER admitted my pride. because I didn't SEE it.

And the blessing of being humbled andcha stised and going the different way of not caring if I wash onored by them but just wanting to bless themand forgive them and love them - to see what a difference came over THEM by doing awayw ith my pride and demand for respect from them - it was shocking. It somehow softened THEM. I can't cmoprehend it really...
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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#76
So much unsubstantiated nonsense!

@ Willie - sorry about repentance in the OT. I am not dragging my Hebrew lexicon into bed with me, its enough having the Greek one here. So we will deal with the Hebrew concept of repentance, esp. Where God is concerned in another post.

@ those who erroneously believe that repentance means "change your mind" in the Bible.
So repentance means "change your mind?" what sources do you people have, besides a link to a faulty website with a link to another website that does not correctly reproduce what is in real Lexicons!

So again: Bauer BAGD

Metanoia:
1. Change one's mind. Hv 3,7,3; m11:4, Diod. S 15, Hann 35, 151, Mithrid 58, 238, Stob, Ecf. II 113, 5ffW; PSI 495, Jos, Vi 110, 262.

(I don't know about you, but I don't know a single one of those early Christian writers. No citations of Bible verses! NONE!)

2. Feel remorse, repent, be converted, (in a variety of relationships and in connection with varied responsibilites, moral, political social or religious.

(Quite a few non-biblical citations,) then:
Matt 11:21, Luke 10:13 - in sackcloth and ashes.

"Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes." Matt 11:21, cf Luke 10:13

Matt 3:2, 4:17 Mark 1:15 - As a prerequiste for experiencing the reign of God in the preaching of John the Baptist and Jesus.

"
Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Matt 3:2

"
and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is" Mark 1:15


So John the Baptist and Jesus are saying - change your mind about the kingdom of God?? Not likely!! They are telling people specifically to turn from their wicked ways.

Context, my friends!! Context.

Here is what is happening in Mark 1. They are not getting baptized because they "changed their minds"!! They are confessing their sins! Why? To be forgiven their sins!!

"
John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5 And all the country of Judea and all Jerusalem were going out to him and were being baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins." Mark 1:4-5

Oh, I can hear the objections already! But this was John the Baptist, not Jesus!

"
From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Matt 4:17

Folks, we don't get into the kingdom of God by changing our minds. We get into it by repenting of our sins, and THEN following Jesus. Skip TRUE repentance, and you have lost the message of the gospel. Then others might say - "Well, things changed after the cross. In Acts, they only changed their minds.

Except what does Paul clearly say that the gospel is??

"For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures" 1 Cor. 15:3

Getting back to Bauer,
Mark 6:12, Acts 17:30, 26:20 -As the subject of the disciples' proclamation

"
So they went out and proclaimed that people should repent." Mark 6:12 What should they repent of?? That people should change their minds??? Or that people should repent of their sins?

"
The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, 31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.” Acts 17:30-31

Even on Mars Hill, in Greece to the philosophers, Paul tells people to repent! The Greek society unlike the Hebrew society, was not based on a system of sacrifices for sin. Yet even here, Paul preaches repentance for sin, not changing their minds!

Then there is Paul preaching to King Agrippa, in the hopes of saving him, and also being released from a long stint in prison. What does Paul say??

"
Therefore, O King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to those in Damascus, then in Jerusalem and throughout all the region of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds in keeping with their repentance." Acts 26:19-20

Repent - turn away from sins - and then yes, turn to God! But also note repent here means "performing deeds!" Oh dear - is Paul preaching a works/righteousness gospel? Is this some bad combination of law and grace? Or is this the FULL gospel? I think the latter.

My goodness, I am barely into the definition of repentance, and so far, it is all about turning away from sin. And never about "changing ones mind."

I think this post has gone on long enough. But if anyone wants, we can continue to read each subdefinition under Bauer, on page 640.

2. Feel remorse, repent and be converted.

Such as:

- Failure to repent leads to destruction
- Repentance saves
- The reason for repentance - "
I fear that when I come again my God may humble me before you, and I may have to mourn over many of those who sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual immorality, and sensuality that they have practiced." 2 Cor. 12:21
- Since in metanoia, the negative impulse of turning away is dominant
- repent with the whole heart.

But I won't get into all the support verses, I think I have shown enough the Biblical and exegetical meaning of metanoia.

Repentance is always tied to confession of sins, and turning away from them in the New Testament. There simply is no where it says "change your mind." Just because "noia" or "mind" is in the word metanoia, doesn't mean that it means "change your mind."

In fact, I have often wondered as I heard this definition of the word repentance, how meta, which means "with or after" depending upon the case, ties into the word "change." Well in fact, it doesn't! Metanoia, may have those two root words, but in Greek, sometimes a prepostion intensifies a noun, like "mind" and sometimes it just becomes something completely and utterly different. In the case of metanoia, it becomes something totally different. It seems to me like people are playing fast and easy with the true defintion of repentance. And that mind is not the meaning, but rather turning away from sin and evil.

And no, Grace777 this has nothing to do with religious upbringing, and everything to do with proper exegetics in the Greek. And that includes, context, context context!

The context of the New Testament, was Jesus dying on the cross for our sins. Jesus was the final sacrifice for sin. The entire Jewish religion was founded upon sacrifice and that is the story of the Bible from Genesis to Revelation.

Part of being born again, is that God gives us that grace to repent from our sins. No repentance, no grace. And certainly no watered down, repentanceless salvation, or changing one's mind!

So what does the Greek conclusively prove? That "changing ones' mind" is a much later definition of repentance, and every single example of repentance had to do with the gospel of salvation from sin. Sin is what destroyed the relationship in the Garden of Eden, between Adam and Eve and God, and that has never changed.

Sin is still the source of all our problems, and we do need to turn away from sin. This hypergrace gospel is a false gospel preaching a false repentance, one which misses the entire point of what Jesus came to do. The hyper-grace repentance leads people away from God. Because, unless you turn from your sins you cannot turn to God. In fact, it scares me that so many people here are preaching this false message of repentance.

Jesus did not come to change people's minds.He came to save us from our sins, and to bring us into the Kingdom of God.

There is no such things as repentance without including the word - sin. Context dictates that in every passage where repentance is mentioned, we don't have to look far to find out that the Bible is talkin about turning from sin.

Context, in terms of the whole Bible, is that God prepared a people who understood sacrifice for sin, so that when the Messiah came, they were prepared to repent and turn from their sins. Context, means we can't change the word "repentance" to make it comfortable for people in our society, who do not want to change their lives, to walk away from what they were, and instead walk towards Jesus. You simply cannot not omit repentance for sins from the gospel, or you are preaching a false gospel.

*A Greek Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature." Third Edition Revised and Edited by Frederick William Danker, based on Walter's Bauers' German version and edited by Kurt Aland and Barbara Aland, and on previous English Editions by William Arndt, William Gingrich and F. W Danker, pges 640-641.
 
Feb 7, 2015
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#77
Yes, Jesus DID come, VERY MUCH, to change people's minds....... About what and whom they put their faith in, and about the misconception they had developed over the millennia of what the Father was like.

THAT is the very basis of Christianity. "Believe THIS way, not THAT way that Judaism had been perverted into.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,786
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#78
Yes, Jesus DID come, VERY MUCH, to change people's minds....... About what and whom they put their faith in, and about the misconception they had developed over the millennia of what the Father was like.

THAT is the very basis of Christianity. "Believe THIS way, not THAT way that Judaism had been perverted into.

Scriptures, please!
 
Aug 15, 2009
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#79
just be careful, not everything said or done in His name has His stamp of approval...

8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.1 (Lk. 21:8 KJV)
In Jesus' day He said people existed that did that..... now they preach & teach a false christ that doesn't even exist. And we're not to be moved or say anything about it, for if we do we're heresy hunters. In other words "shut yer trap & let me believe in a christ that requires nothing but verbal acceptance". A "don't make me accountable crowd".:rolleyes:

Good post,BTW. :)
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#80
Yes, Jesus DID come, VERY MUCH, to change people's minds....... About what and whom they put their faith in, and about the misconception they had developed over the millennia of what the Father was like.

THAT is the very basis of Christianity. "Believe THIS way, not THAT way that Judaism had been perverted into.

Amen HE did come to change our minds and it is all about believing. Believing in what He did for us...the new covenant.

Bertie Brits says "what you believe will be formed in you."

I guess that is why "believe" is mentioned so many times in the new testament.

Angela Lina
 
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