When Did The Church Begin

[posthuman]

And I don't use the bible you use. You are using corrupted manuscripts. I only use a KJB. We will never agree on anything, because your bible contradicts my bible.

(Whereby when ye reade, ye may vnderstand my knowledge in the mysterie of Christ.)
Which in other ages was not made knowen vnto the sonnes of men, as it is now reueiled vnto his holy Apostles and Prophets by the Spirit,
That the Gentiles should be fellow heires, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ, by the Gospel:
Whereof I was made a Minister, according to the gift of the grace of God giuen vnto mee, by the effectuall working of his power​

 

[fredoheaven]

The resurrection is not part of the mystery my friend. The death, burial, and resurrection is in prophecy. It's always been there. Lets read.

Mark 9.32
For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day. But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him.

They understood NOT what it meant.

Luke 9.43-45
And they were all amazed at the mighty power of God. But while they wondered every one at all things which Jesus did, he said unto his disciples, Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men. But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying.

They understood NOT why he must be delivered.

Matt 17.23
And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.

They were sorry??? I thought this was the good news. They understood NOT what these sayings were. All of this is in prophecy BEFORE Paul was ever saved. Before the MYSTERY was ever revealed to Paul.

Lets take this further...

Paul says his gospel is the gospel of the uncircumcision, while Peters is the gospel of the circumcision. Paul clearly rightly dividing HIS gospel with Peter's gospel. Lets read...

Gal 2.7-8

But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me *Paul*, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles: )

Let's see what Jesus has to say about this

Rom 15.8
Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

Matt 15.24
But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
But he *Jesus* answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

I honestly could keep going.

Ho ho my friend, you have just figured out what the message of Paul and Peter. The mystery of the church is that believing Gentiles will placed under the body of Christ. Gentiles are foreign to the terminology you are speaking. They were unknown until Paul was sent to the Gentile. You speak of 'Mystery' but we have many mysteries in the bible. What mystery you are referring to? Is this no the OP is all about? Church Mystery?

BTW, the church existence is prior to Paul. Rightly dividing the word places even prior to Acts 2.

 

[posthuman]

And I don't use the bible you use. You are using corrupted manuscripts. I only use a KJB. We will never agree on anything, because your bible contradicts my bible.

εἶναι τὰ ἔθνη συγκληρονόμα καὶ σύσσωμα καὶ συμμέτοχα τῆς ἐπαγγελίας αὐτοῦ ἐν τῷ Χριστῷ διὰ τοῦ εὐαγγελίου​

 

[posthuman]

Not an argument.

LOL

and why do you think the revelation of Christ should be "an argument" . . . ?

if arguing is all you desire, maybe that's all you'll get.

 

[RomansToPhilemon]

Ho ho my friend, you have just figured out what the message of Paul and Peter. The mystery of the church is that believing Gentiles will placed under the body of Christ. Gentiles are foreign to the terminology you are speaking. They were unknown until Paul was sent to the Gentile. You speak of 'Mystery' but we have many mysteries in the bible. What mystery you are referring to? Is this no the OP is all about? Church Mystery?

BTW, the church existence is prior to Paul. Rightly dividing the word places even prior to Acts 2.

The mysteries I am referring to is Romans-Philemon. All of it. All 13 books. It's all a mystery.

Hebrews 2.3-5 says the Acts 2 church where mainline Christians want's to start the body of Christ actually started way back in Matt-John. Lets read.

For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

Acts 2 church actually started with the Lord and was CONFIRMED (Acts 2) by the gifts, signs, and wonders of the Holy Ghost. Which was the prophecy from Joel as Peter says!

So why on Earth do you think Paul, who says the body of Christ is a mystery, is part of Jesus' Church. It's impossible...we know it's impossible because of 1 Cor 2.6-8.

 

[fredoheaven]

I address this issue in depth in another thread. I'll repost:

“Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;” – Eph 3:5

Ephesians 3:5 and Rom 16.26 mentions apostles and prophets that know the mystery of Christ. Sincere saints are troubled at this verse thinking that it either discounts Paul’s special apostleship, or shows that the mystery was known before Paul.

There is no need to be troubled about this verse right in the middle of one of the clearest passages about the mystery of Christ in Paul’s letters. These are not the twelve apostles of the prophesied kingdom gospel, nor are they the prophets of the Old Testament. These are apostles and prophets belonging to the church, the Body of Christ.

Paul First of All

There is no doubt that Paul’s apostleship is unique, having been separated by the Lord himself. The mystery of Christ was first revealed to Paul, who was a “chosen vessel” sent as an apostle of Jesus Christ with a new dispensation of the gospel (Acts 9:15, 1 Cor 9:17).

Just a couple verses before Eph 3:5 Paul explains that the dispensation was given to him regarding the mystery:

“If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery…” – Eph 3:2-3

To the Corinthians Paul declares that he delivered the gospel unto them “first of all” (1 Cor 15:3).
To the Romans Paul claims to be a separated apostle (Rom 1:1), and magnifies his office as the dispenser of God’s grace to Gentiles:“For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:” – Rom 11:13
However, although he was the first apostle of the church he was not the only apostle.

Apostles of the Church

The church the Body of Christ had many apostles and prophets when it began nearly two thousand years ago.
Paul could not be everywhere at once. While he traveled ministering his gospel, others were recruited by the Spirit to help.
We should not forget that the Spirit gave gifts of prophecy and positions of apostleship to others after Paul in the newly revealed church of Christ’s body.

“…To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy;…” – 1 Cor 12:10

“And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, …” – 1 Cor 12:28

Timothy, Silvanus, and Epaphroditus are all called apostles by Paul in his letters (1 Thess 2:6, Phil 2:25).
It was these Spirit filled church apostles who also prophesied mystery truths as they were laying the foundation of the early church wherever they were sent (Eph 2:20).

After the church was established in mystery truth these foundational gifts were no longer needed (1 Cor 13:10-11).

“And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith…” – Eph 4:11-12

Twelve Apostles Excluded

None of the twelve apostles of the kingdom were also apostles of the church. The only foundation they laid was of Jesus Christ according to prophecy. The twelve apostles were apostles of Israel’s twelve tribes in their earthly kingdom.
None of the Twelve knew the mystery when they were sent with their gospel. When they were chosen by the Lord they did not know that Christ needed to die, not to mention anything about the mystery preaching of the cross (Luke 18:34).

The Spirit gave the Twelve understanding of what the prophets spoke since the world began at Pentecost, but not a word was spoken about the mystery kept secret since the world began (Acts 3:21, 3:24; vs Rom 16:25).

The apostles and prophets of Ephesians 3:5 and Rom 16.26 can not possibly be anything but church apostles and prophets since Paul was the first to receive the mystery of Christ, and the only apostles and prophets who have knowledge of the mystery come after Paul as part of the church not Israel’s kingdom.

I think you are discounting Paul in saying Romans 1:16. It is because, he addresses to the Corinthians that "first of all" that it was to the Corinthians Paul preached the Gospel. You have just violated your Acts 9 where paul journeyed in Damacus. I see many loopholes in this post but I have no more time to this day.

I will copy and paste to word and print for the meantime and look forward to comment on yours.

Thanks

 

[RomansToPhilemon]

LOL

and why do you think the revelation of Christ should be "an argument" . . . ?

if arguing is all you desire, maybe that's all you'll get.

argument - make a point. have a thesis. counter. etc.

If you want to make a point, you don't just copy past a scripture and expect someone to know what you are trying to ARGUE. Make an argument; make a point. Put some effort into it.

 

[fredoheaven]

The mysteries I am referring to is Romans-Philemon. All of it. All 13 books. It's all a mystery.

Hebrews 2.3-5 says the Acts 2 church where mainline Christians want's to start the body of Christ actually started way back in Matt-John. Lets read.

For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

Acts 2 church actually started with the Lord and was CONFIRMED (Acts 2) by the gifts, signs, and wonders of the Holy Ghost. Which was the prophecy from Joel as Peter says!

So why on Earth do you think Paul, who says the body of Christ is a mystery, is part of Jesus' Church. It's impossible...we know it's impossible because of 1 Cor 2.6-8.

"It's impossible"

just a few comment here before I leave: That could be a mystery!

 

[Chester]

Not an argument.

Correct! The truth is the truth: it is not just an argument! LOL!

 

[wattie]

There is a new thread in town, claiming that there are two Churches.

This is plain false teaching - "hyperdispensationalism" apparently.

The Church was actually started by God when he sat down to eat with Abraham...we are part of the same Church.

Okay,

The New Testament local churches started with Jesus and His disciples. The first one being Jesus and His disciples. The disciples and apostles then planting further local churches by Jesus' authority. Eg.. at Phillipi, at Ephesus.. at Corinth.

The FAMILY of God.. which is NOT 'the church'.. ever believer... started with Adam, and has been added to since then by grace through faith in Jesus. In the OT they were looking forward to Jesus' coming and believed in that.. in the NT they have faith in Jesus having already come.

Now.. so every believer will one day be one church in heaven in the New Jerusalem heavenly body. But not now, not yet.

Every heard of an unassembled assembly? That is what many are calling 'the church' when they ascribe it to every believer.

church-- assembly, congregation, of saved baptised believers.. that local community of baptised believers. As one scholar put it.. if it ever loses the idea of assembly, congregation, gathering, it ceases to be the definition of church.

If you want to know more.. I can expound on this more.

 

[RomansToPhilemon]

God has separate agencies of the church to handle the kingdom of God. The body of Christ is formed to occupy the heavenly realm and control those principalities with Christ as the head. Israel and that church are looking for a kingdom on Earth. And will have the 12 tribes of Israel reside over the nations with Christ at the head. This is a major thing to understand if you want to clear up the confusion about the bible. Right division is the key!

 

[posthuman]

argument - make a point. have a thesis. counter. etc.

If you want to make a point, you don't just copy past a scripture and expect someone to know what you are trying to ARGUE. Make an argument; make a point. Put some effort into it.

Disproof by Counterexample
Consider a statement of the form

• 
  x
  
  M, if P(x) then Q(x).

Suppose that we wish to prove that this statement is false. In order to disprove this statement, we have to find a value of x in M for which P(x) is true and Q(x) is false. Such an x is called a counterexample.
Furthermore, proving that this statement is false is equivalent to showing that its negation is true. The negation of the above statement is

• 
  x in M such that P(x) and not Q(x).
  
  
  x
  
  M | P(x)
  
  ~Q(x).

Finding an x that makes the above statement true will disprove the original statement.

 

[Depleted]

(Whereby when ye reade, ye may vnderstand my knowledge in the mysterie of Christ.)
Which in other ages was not made knowen vnto the sonnes of men, as it is now reueiled vnto his holy Apostles and Prophets by the Spirit,
That the Gentiles should be fellow heires, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ, by the Gospel:
Whereof I was made a Minister, according to the gift of the grace of God giuen vnto mee, by the effectuall working of his power​

Ye been reading The Genova again? lol

(Only time I see such funky looking English words is when I pull out the dust Genova Bible.)

 

[Depleted]

εἶναι τὰ ἔθνη συγκληρονόμα καὶ σύσσωμα καὶ συμμέτοχα τῆς ἐπαγγελίας αὐτοῦ ἐν τῷ Χριστῷ διὰ τοῦ εὐαγγελίου​

 

[Depleted]

argument - make a point. have a thesis. counter. etc.

If you want to make a point, you don't just copy past a scripture and expect someone to know what you are trying to ARGUE. Make an argument; make a point. Put some effort into it.

Clue:
You're chiding a mathematician. (And before that an ordained minister.) Try and grow up.

 

[fredoheaven]

I address this issue in depth in another thread. I'll repost:

“Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;” – Eph 3:5

Ephesians 3:5 and Rom 16.26 mentions apostles and prophets that know the mystery of Christ. Sincere saints are troubled at this verse thinking that it either discounts Paul’s special apostleship, or shows that the mystery was known before Paul.

There is no need to be troubled about this verse right in the middle of one of the clearest passages about the mystery of Christ in Paul’s letters. These are not the twelve apostles of the prophesied kingdom gospel, nor are they the prophets of the Old Testament. These are apostles and prophets belonging to the church, the Body of Christ.

First thing, you claim to address this issue in depth and that I have no need to be troubled by it. You speak of the mystery of Christ to mean it is all the mysteries in the Book of the Romans to Philemon. So let me address the issue where it is being misunderstood.

Misconceptions on the Mysteries as found in the New Testament.

There are many mysteries written in the New Testament but I will address two(2) of them in line with the thread and will simplify it as much as I can:


1. The Church as Mystery Ephesians 3:6-11; 6:1-9


We know Ephesians 3:5 says was unknown both to the Jew and Gentiles (‘sons of men”) but revealed in due time unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. Paul explained this mystery in Ephesians 3:6 to be of the SAME BODY not another body.

Ephesians 3: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

So what is this mystery all about? Let’s put a proper division on the word of truth. Is this the mystery of Christ or the Body of Christ?

Ephesians 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Paul is saying when they read this mystery being revealed they may understand his knowledge in the mystery of Christ. This is not about ‘the knowledge of the mystery of Christ’ which is all different. So the context in Ephesians is about the body of Christ or the church which is the mystery.

Ephesians 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

What ages is Paul talking about? If you are dispensationalist, we talked about the dispensation of innocence, to the dispensation of Conscience, then dispensation of Human Government, the Promise and the law, so this dispensation is from Adam to John the Baptist because the law and the prophets (OT) were until John. Using “Line upon line” as said by Paul in this dispensation of grace would agree on this thing:


Matthew 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

The mystery is the placing of the Gentile to the SAME BODY! And what is this body all about? It is the church!

Ephesians 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,


2. The Mystery of Christ Eph. 3:4


Paul speaks of the mystery of Christ. Israel is expecting a Messiah, their savior or the king like King David to deliver them from the oppression or bondage from Gentile nations. What they don’t understands is that God send His only begotten Son which to the Jews did not receive him as king, for in fact Christ was derided and let the Romans crown him with thorns. They don’t even know that whom they killed and hanged on the tree is the KINg of kings and Lord of lords. So that is all about the mystery of Christ.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Matthew 27:29 And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!

Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

 

[fredoheaven]

Paul First of All

There is no doubt that Paul’s apostleship is unique, having been separated by the Lord himself. The mystery of Christ was first revealed to Paul, who was a “chosen vessel” sent as an apostle of Jesus Christ with a new dispensation of the gospel (Acts 9:15, 1 Cor 9:17).

No, I disagree, the mystery of Christ which is basically the incarnation of Christ was known by His earlier Apostles. You just mixed them and are confused of this mystery.

 

[fredoheaven]

Apostles of the Church

The church the Body of Christ had many apostles and prophets when it began nearly two thousand years ago.
Paul could not be everywhere at once. While he traveled ministering his gospel, others were recruited by the Spirit to help.
We should not forget that the Spirit gave gifts of prophecy and positions of apostleship to others after Paul in the newly revealed church of Christ’s body.

“…To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy;…” – 1 Cor 12:10

“And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, …” – 1 Cor 12:28

Timothy, Silvanus, and Epaphroditus are all called apostles by Paul in his letters (1 Thess 2:6, Phil 2:25).
It was these Spirit filled church apostles who also prophesied mystery truths as they were laying the foundation of the early church wherever they were sent (Eph 2:20).

After the church was established in mystery truth these foundational gifts were no longer needed (1 Cor 13:10-11).

“And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith…” – Eph 4:11-12

I agree the church or the body of Christ has many Apostles and prophets and by your claim of dispensation placed them on/after Paul. The Law and the prophets were until John so it is very clear that the dispensation of grace started at the early ministry of Christ. Your Acts 9 is quite late. Grace came by Jesus Christ, the Gospel begins with Christ. Too bad you are saying that these foundational gifts were no longer needed. True they were no longer apostles now but the idea of being sent ones is still true as of today, there were missionaries to foreign lands and local communities. The prophets were no longer with us when the Bible is complete, yet still one of their function to prophesy “preach” the word or forth tell is still with the church of today. Paul says of the evangelists and we have such evangelists working in the church today, they were some pastors and teachers that has been given to church for the perfecting of the saints and eddying of the body of Christ.


Oh, there is ONE BODY.

 

[fredoheaven]

Twelve Apostles Excluded

None of the twelve apostles of the kingdom were also apostles of the church. The only foundation they laid was of Jesus Christ according to prophecy. The twelve apostles were apostles of Israel’s twelve tribes in their earthly kingdom.
None of the Twelve knew the mystery when they were sent with their gospel. When they were chosen by the Lord they did not know that Christ needed to die, not to mention anything about the mystery preaching of the cross (Luke 18:34).

The Spirit gave the Twelve understanding of what the prophets spoke since the world began at Pentecost, but not a word was spoken about the mystery kept secret since the world began (Acts 3:21, 3:24; vs Rom 16:25).

You forgot that there was already the Jerusalem Church long before Acts 9.
Acts 11:22 Then tidings of these things came unto the ears of the church which was in Jerusalem: and they sent forth Barnabas, that he should go as far as Antioch.

That this church in Jerusalem is the same church ‘assembled together’ in Acts 1:4 that these church pre-existed Acts 2 much more of Acts 9. They were composed originally with the 12, replaced Judas by Mathhias of whom according to Acts1:15 they were 120 members and later added in the Pentecostal of about 3000 souls. The Greek ‘ekklesia’ simply means calling out that as being described in Matthew 16:18 is called by Jesus ‘MY church’ exclusively His. So therefore the church did not started by your claims of dispensation.

 

[fredoheaven]

The apostles and prophets of Ephesians 3:5 and Rom 16.26 can not possibly be anything but church apostles and prophets since Paul was the first to receive the mystery of Christ, and the only apostles and prophets who have knowledge of the mystery come after Paul as part of the church not Israel’s kingdom.

You also assumed that Peter and Paul do not have the same message by virtue of preaching the kingdom of God. But if you are well read, Paul preached about the kingdom of God as well! This may sound mystery to you, I guess. So read this:


Acts 19:8 And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.

Acts 20:25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching thekingdom of God, shall see my face no more.

Acts 28:30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,
Acts 20:31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

Galatians 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.